Mets could shop McNeil, Sox could have interest

[southsider2k5]

 

[hi8is]

Ya don’t say, Jon…

[SCCWS]

Supposedly if they deal him, Mets want starting pitching in return........................

https://calltothepen.com/2021/12/24/new-york-mets-rumors-jeff-mcneil-trade/

 

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Supposedly if they deal him, Mets want starting pitching in return........................

https://calltothepen.com/2021/12/24/new-york-mets-rumors-jeff-mcneil-trade/

 

Said this elsewhere, obviously neither of Kopech and Cease are options. So for this org, that basically leaves Crochet as the starting point? 

Im not sure how much beyond him you have to go. Down year in 21, but really good the 2 previous years. Cheap, but whether he has 2 years of control or 3 is a major CBA negotiating point. 

Maybe Crochet plus Lopez on the low end and Crochet plus Vera on the high end?

[hi8is]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Crochet plus Lopez on the low end and Crochet plus Vera

Yuck.

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Said this elsewhere, obviously neither of Kopech and Cease are options. So for this org, that basically leaves Crochet as the starting point? 

Im not sure how much beyond him you have to go. Down year in 21, but really good the 2 previous years. Cheap, but whether he has 2 years of control or 3 is a major CBA negotiating point. 

Maybe Crochet plus Lopez on the low end and Crochet plus Vera on the high end?

Which would make the Kimbrel trade more pitiful. 

And some haven't learned their lesson yet, and want the Sox to trade Vaughn. The Sox need a few cheap productive players or a new owner if you don't want the "windows to quickly close.

[bmags]

Good Jeff McNeil is about as perfect a fit as you can get for complementing Sox offensive gaps.

Hahn has shown he is okay with swinging three team deals, and not like it’s that often a ML for ML player is widely available. Would assume Sox just need to offer best package and would be in running regardless of if it’s SP near majors.

[Chick Mercedes]

I can’t say I am that familiar with him. Don't we have Legend Garcia for the utility role? This thread made me depressed to consider that number 1, we would ever consider trading guys like Crochet and high end prospects for a utility guy. And number 2, bringing in a utility guy means Legend Garcia is the second baseman.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Chick Mercedes

[Balta1701]

11 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

I can’t say I am that familiar with him. Don't we have Legend Garcia for the utility role? This thread made me depressed to consider that number 1, we would ever consider trading guys like Crochet and high end prospects for a utility guy. And number 2, bringing in a utility guy means Legend Garcia is the second baseman.

This is a guy who was a 3 rWAR player as a rookie in 18 in 63 games, a 5 rWAR player in 2019, a 1.5 rWAR player in the short 2020 (would scale up to about 4.5 over a full season). 

If he’s that kind of player, then he’s not Leury Garcia, he’s Chris Taylor. He’s a starter who happens to be good enough that you can move him around to multiple positions if someone else is getting rest or pinch hit for. You want him in your lineup every day. Leury Garcia is a bench player who is acceptable at multiple positions without hurting you. You want him available on the bench when you need him, but not playing every day.

Of course the big worry is that he was a 1.4 rWAR player in 2021. That’s Leury Garcia performance, that’s the kind of guy you have to replace at the deadline. But, you’re paying a price for him that reflects how good he was in those first three years, with a premium for multiple years of control remaining, and a little discount for his down ‘21, so you can’t afford for him to be that bad again if you trade for him.

[Chick Mercedes]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

This is a guy who was a 3 rWAR player as a rookie in 18 in 63 games, a 5 rWAR player in 2019, a 1.5 rWAR player in the short 2020 (would scale up to about 4.5 over a full season). 

If he’s that kind of player, then he’s not Leury Garcia, he’s Chris Taylor. He’s a starter who happens to be good enough that you can move him around to multiple positions if someone else is getting rest or pinch hit for. You want him in your lineup every day. Leury Garcia is a bench player who is acceptable at multiple positions without hurting you. You want him available on the bench when you need him, but not playing every day.

Of course the big worry is that he was a 1.4 rWAR player in 2021. That’s Leury Garcia performance, that’s the kind of guy you have to replace at the deadline. But, you’re paying a price for him that reflects how good he was in those first three years, with a premium for multiple years of control remaining, and a little discount for his down ‘21, so you can’t afford for him to be that bad again if you trade for him.

Thanks for the info.  But short of permanent solutions filling holes, I don’t want to be trading names like Crochet here. If he was a young kid instead of entering his 30s, it might be more enticing to trade the best prospects.  The Sox really need to stop with that stuff. If it ends up being a Kimbrel package, then whatever. But the Sox seem like they are on plans B and C at this point 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Chick Mercedes

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Thanks for the info.  But short of permanent solutions filling holes, I don’t want to be trading names like Crochet here. If he was a young kid instead of entering his 30s, it might be more enticing to trade the best prospects.  The Sox really need to stop with that stuff. If it ends up being a Kimbrel package, then whatever. But the Sox seem like they are on plans B and C at this point 

Obviously I’m on record as saying Kimbrel is worthless with this contract, but the Mets are a specific problem. Under the old CBA, there is a big penalty for being $40 million over the luxury tax. The Mets are past that line.

I know it doesn’t make sense for them but let’s imagine a Kimbrel for McNeil deal. Because of the penalties, they pay $22 million for Kimbrel. That is pricey.

They could do something like sending Cano or McCann back, but the White Sox only have $13 million in space before they hit the luxury tax line under the old CBA, so if the White Sox want to address their other needs, taking back money is an issue for them too.

Obviously some of this may change if there’s a CBA, but good chance the rules don’t change much in year 1, and hell if a judge reimposes the old CBA as in 1995 nothing would change. So there’s some really big penalties in play here.

[Chick Mercedes]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Obviously I’m on record as saying Kimbrel is worthless with this contract, but the Mets are a specific problem. Under the old CBA, there is a big penalty for being $40 million over the luxury tax. The Mets are past that line.

I know it doesn’t make sense for them but let’s imagine a Kimbrel for McNeil deal. Because of the penalties, they pay $22 million for Kimbrel. That is pricey.

They could do something like sending Cano or McCann back, but the White Sox only have $13 million in space before they hit the luxury tax line under the old CBA, so if the White Sox want to address their other needs, taking back money is an issue for them too.

Obviously some of this may change if there’s a CBA, but good chance the rules don’t change much in year 1, and hell if a judge reimposes the old CBA as in 1995 nothing would change. So there’s some really big penalties in play here.

Then for me, Heyman is wrong. The Sox don’t seem like a fit. We don’t have enough young and cheap top talent to burn like that. The Dodgers, the Padres, they have enough to light on fire for a McNeil. Not the Sox. Lets recall that Hahn has been saying we want to maintain this for a very long time. You do that by maintaining a cheap and talented youth pipeline. Not selling it all  off for a window. Not feeling it at all if folks are throwing Crochet etc on the bonfire.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Chick Mercedes

[oldsox]

38 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Then for me, Heyman is wrong. The Sox don’t seem like a fit. We don’t have enough young and cheap top talent to burn like that. The Dodgers, the Padres, they have enough to light on fire for a McNeil. Not the Sox. Lets recall that Hahn has been saying we want to maintain this for a very long time. You do that by maintaining a cheap and talented youth pipeline. Not selling it all  off for a window. Not feeling it at all if folks are throwing Crochet etc on the bonfire.

Chick, you probably gave this a lot more thought than Heyman did before he made that tweet/comment.  And, you are correct.

[SCCWS]

On 12/25/2021 at 11:08 AM, Balta1701 said:

Said this elsewhere, obviously neither of Kopech and Cease are options. So for this org, that basically leaves Crochet as the starting point? 

Im not sure how much beyond him you have to go. Down year in 21, but really good the 2 previous years. Cheap, but whether he has 2 years of control or 3 is a major CBA negotiating point. 

Maybe Crochet plus Lopez on the low end and Crochet plus Vera on the high end?

Supposedly looking for a 4/5 since they seem set 1-3. So maybe Crochet to start sounds good. 

[Sambuca]

Sox should do something whacky like Keuchel and Crochet for McNeil and McCann, but I’m not sure if the Mets have a clear path to another starting catcher.

Giving up Crochet would suck, it’s possible no one would gamble on Keuchel for that price at the back of the rotation, and McCann is way overpriced.

But the Sox would be filling two holes, while gaining 3/4 mil of payroll to work with for next season.  

McNeil obviously fills 2B/LHB, and McCann fills backup catcher. McCann is decent defensively, and as well all know works very well with pitchers, especially some of the Sox pitchers. He had a down year offensively, but his bat is good enough to give him a ton of time behind the plate, saving Yasmani’s health, and giving him more time in the lineup at DH.  

If the Sox can also unload Kimbrel’s salary, while hopefully getting something useful in return, they will have plenty of money to sign an OF (Conforto), someone to eat up innings at the back end of the rotation, and hopefully another bullpen arm. They still might be a little short on SP, but they don’t need anything special to fill some more innings.  

The Mets will get two pitchers for the backend of their rotation. One who is playoff experienced, has a long history of success, and could bounce back going to the NL and with changes to the baseball (grip). The other pitcher being an extremely young, high ceiling, cheap potential SP for the next 5 years. They also did this while only taking on 3/4 mil of payroll.

Someone, hurry up and tell me how stupid this is.

[elrockinMT]

Pitching wins pennants and you need a lot of it through the season. Why would we trade from our strength And weaken it to fill a supposed hole in our lineup, which we may have other options? 

[Sarava]

6 hours ago, elrockinMT said:

Pitching wins pennants and you need a lot of it through the season. Why would we trade from our strength And weaken it to fill a supposed hole in our lineup, which we may have other options? 

The Sox seem hesitant to spend money in free agency this winter and people are trying to think outside of the box to fill these holes. As thin as it feels for pitching depth in the Sox system, it's even thinner for position talent.

[Two-Gun Pete]

11 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Then for me, Heyman is wrong. The Sox don’t seem like a fit. We don’t have enough young and cheap top talent to burn like that. The Dodgers, the Padres, they have enough to light on fire for a McNeil. Not the Sox. Lets recall that Hahn has been saying we want to maintain this for a very long time. You do that by maintaining a cheap and talented youth pipeline. Not selling it all  off for a window. Not feeling it at all if folks are throwing Crochet etc on the bonfire.

SOX fans need to let this one go. They LIED to you when they claimed they were going for "multiple championships," unless you buy that lying lawering bullshit artist Rick Hahn.

When they moronically failed to get the year of control back on Kopech, they shortened the window. When they stupidly failed to start stretching out Crochet, they shortened the window. And when they fucking added an old, expensive closer in decline to the BP w/the 3rd most FWAR, while giving up 2 league minimum pieces, they shortened the window.

 

I recommend that posters make peace with the reality that this window is closing once TA and Giolito leave via FA. It might close earlier, if Father Time comes to take away Grandals bat speed, or Hendriks fastballs, or if Lynn's obesity starts his inevitable decline sooner than expected. 

At the same time, there is exactly Jack and Shit in the MiLB system to help keep this window open. So again, make peace with having to trade away MLB pieces, if this org wants to make significant trades to augment the 26 man roster.

 

Carry on...

Edited December 27, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[ChiSox59]

12 hours ago, Chick Mercedes said:

Then for me, Heyman is wrong. The Sox don’t seem like a fit. We don’t have enough young and cheap top talent to burn like that. The Dodgers, the Padres, they have enough to light on fire for a McNeil. Not the Sox. Lets recall that Hahn has been saying we want to maintain this for a very long time. You do that by maintaining a cheap and talented youth pipeline. Not selling it all  off for a window. Not feeling it at all if folks are throwing Crochet etc on the bonfire.

Putting aside what it may take to acquire McNeil, he is a fantastic fit for the Sox.  Conforto + McNeil and Sox easily have the best lineup in baseball when healthy.  

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

SOX fans need to let this one go. They LIED to you when they claimed they were going for "multiple championships," unless you buy that lying lawering bullshit artist Rick Hahn.

When they moronically failed to get the year of control back on Kopech, they shortened the window. When they stupidly failed to start stretching out Crochet, they shortened the window. And when they fucking added an old, expensive closer in decline to the BP w/the 3rd most FWAR, while giving up 2 league minimum pieces, they shortened the window.

 

I recommend that posters make peace with the reality that this window is closing once TA and Giolito leave via FA. It might close earlier, if Father Time comes to take away Grandals bat speed, or Hendriks fastballs, or if Lynn's obesity starts his inevitable decline sooner than expected. 

At the same time, there is exactly Jack and Shit in the MiLB system to help keep this window open. So again, make peace with having to trade away MLB pieces, if this org wants to make significant trades to augment the 26 man roster.

 

Carry on...

I absolutely adore fans who take positions like this, yet still spend time and energy on this franchise.  If you truly believe this, yet still put anything into it at all, YOU are the biggest dupe of all. Woke, bitter, and loyal is one heck of a mountain to die on.

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I absolutely adore fans who take positions like this, yet still spend time and energy on this franchise.  If you truly believe this, yet still put anything into it at all, YOU are the biggest dupe of all. Woke, bitter, and loyal is one heck of a mountain to die on.

While I am not a fan of this poster's constant charade against the Sox FO, this paragraph is definitely accurate:

When they moronically failed to get the year of control back on Kopech, they shortened the window. When they stupidly failed to start stretching out Crochet, they shortened the window. And when they fucking added an old, expensive closer in decline to the BP w/the 3rd most FWAR, while giving up 2 league minimum pieces, they shortened the window.

Each one of those moves was in fact stupid and short sighted.  They were moves made by a team that was trying to win now - I get it.  But they were all minor trade offs that could have seen this whole thing have more longevity.  You can add Vaughn not starting in the minors last year to the list.  All moves that in a vacuum are not the end of the world, but when you total them up - its obvious that the Sox are less concerned about the back end of this window than some of us fans.  Its a tight rope and I get it.  I want to win now too.  But if they took the longer term approach on any one (or frankly even all) of those moves, competing in 2021 wouldn't have been impacted all that greatly. I too hate short term thinking, and in 2021 we saw a lot of it. 

[southsider2k5]

58 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

While I am not a fan of this poster's constant charade against the Sox FO, this paragraph is definitely accurate:

When they moronically failed to get the year of control back on Kopech, they shortened the window. When they stupidly failed to start stretching out Crochet, they shortened the window. And when they fucking added an old, expensive closer in decline to the BP w/the 3rd most FWAR, while giving up 2 league minimum pieces, they shortened the window.

Each one of those moves was in fact stupid and short sighted.  They were moves made by a team that was trying to win now - I get it.  But they were all minor trade offs that could have seen this whole thing have more longevity.  You can add Vaughn not starting in the minors last year to the list.  All moves that in a vacuum are not the end of the world, but when you total them up - its obvious that the Sox are less concerned about the back end of this window than some of us fans.  Its a tight rope and I get it.  I want to win now too.  But if they took the longer term approach on any one (or frankly even all) of those moves, competing in 2021 wouldn't have been impacted all that greatly. I too hate short term thinking, and in 2021 we saw a lot of it. 

Its one thing to quibble with individual moves.  But to hold an Illuminati plotting against all Sox fans point of view, yet still be willing to spend time and effort on the organization, well let's just say you can't serve two masters.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Its one thing to quibble with individual moves.  But to hold an Illuminati plotting against all Sox fans point of view, yet still be willing to spend time and effort on the organization, well let's just say you can't serve two masters.

I am with you.  Just stating that the Sox did make some very questionable decision making in 2021 that certainly deserves some criticism.  But the overarching BS that guy pushes is way over the top.   

[Dick Allen]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Its one thing to quibble with individual moves.  But to hold an Illuminati plotting against all Sox fans point of view, yet still be willing to spend time and effort on the organization, well let's just say you can't serve two masters.

There is no doubt in my mind, he is one of a few on this board who would rather have the team suck so they can b**** and moan all day than actually be good. Although he does seem to have all the answers. Amazing he is posting on a message board and not collection Executive of the Year hardware every year.

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

I absolutely adore fans who take positions like this, yet still spend time and energy on this franchise.  If you truly believe this, yet still put anything into it at all, YOU are the biggest dupe of all. Woke, bitter, and loyal is one heck of a mountain to die on.

You adore ME? I'm touched and flattered, even though we've never met in person, and TBH, I don't swing that way. Never change.

That said, given that I'VE been a SOX fan for far longer than any of the mouthbreathers in the FO have been with the SOX, I'm fully capable of having more than one thought at the same time. MANY of us can, in that we can "adore" the team we grew up watching, AND HATE the imbecility of the FO.

It really ain't that hard to do, TBH. 

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

1. While I am not a fan of this poster's constant charade against the Sox FO, this paragraph is definitely accurate:

2. When they moronically failed to get the year of control back on Kopech, they shortened the window. When they stupidly failed to start stretching out Crochet, they shortened the window. And when they fucking added an old, expensive closer in decline to the BP w/the 3rd most FWAR, while giving up 2 league minimum pieces, they shortened the window.

3. Each one of those moves was in fact stupid and short sighted.  They were moves made by a team that was trying to win now - I get it.  But they were all minor trade offs that could have seen this whole thing have more longevity.    All moves that in a vacuum are not the end of the world, but when you total them up - its obvious that the Sox are less concerned about the back end of this window than some of us fans.  Its a tight rope and I get it.  I want to win now too.  But if they took the longer term approach on any one (or frankly even all) of those moves, competing in 2021 wouldn't have been impacted all that greatly. I too hate short term thinking, and in 2021 we saw a lot of it. 

4. You can add Vaughn not starting in the minors last year to the list.

1. Hey, its not a "charade," as in calling it an 'act of falsehood' on my part. I TRULY HATE the stupid shit the FO does. I TRULY believe that they're either too stupid, too weak, or just lying to you when they claimed a "multiple championships" window. So it isn't "an act," so much as I TRULY believe that I've fired more competent workers than they. I TRULY believe that if those clowns worked for a competent org, that KW and RH would be lucky to have a fucking mop job for the Rays or dodgers, for example.

2. I'm glad we agree on this part. Truly, an individual RP does not provide enough WAR to lift or to sink a team that was SO MUCH more talented than Cleveland or Minnesota. And so, for far less cash than they squandered on Kimbrel, they could have signed two ~0-1 WAR RP tokens to hold Kopech and Crochet down long enough to extend their controllable years. And as we've already discussed, the SOX's BP had the 3rd most fWAR when they acquired Kimbrel; him being added here hurt more than it helped.

3. Agreed. Since last offseason, they've traded the mid and long term for the sugar high of the short term. And posters that try to harken back to the "multiple championships" lie are stuck in 2019-era thinking. The "multiple championships" window is dead and gone. I simply pray that we can enjoy ONE ring before this group of players is split up via FA, OR Abreu/Grandal/Hendriks/Lynn get their abilities taken away by Father Time.

4. I'll disagree with you on Vaughn, and give those mouthbreathers a pass on keeping him here in 2021. There simply weren't a whole lot of other options to choose from, IMO. That said, in 2022, either Vaughn better learn how to hit RHP, OR this org better have the balls to send his ass down, if he continues to struggle v. RHP. Keeping Vaughn here for 2022 in a part time role while he struggles vs RHP further shortens this window, and harms HIS trade value.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete