Levine links Sox to Conforto

[michelangelosmonkey]

11 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I really think those advocating for a Sheets/Vaughn/Engel “combo platter” are ignoring how catastrophically bad that platoon would be on defense for an entire season.  There is a possibility they could be above average offensively, but we are talking Daniel Palka bad defensively.  I don’t know Conforto’s game all that well but I have to believe his defense makes up for whatever slight edge the “combo platter” might have at the plate.  

 I think you are dramatically overstating how bad the combo platter defense would be.   Engel is an elite defender, Vaughn caught everything hit within fifteen feet of where his statue was and Sheets...is a lefty power bat.    But fine, let's play your game...Manny Ramirez might have been the worst outfield every...he consistently put up -2 dwar and yet had a 4 WAR regularly.   Lots of different ways to win games.  What we do know about the combo platter is that it will cost $20 million less per year than Conforto and you can use that money to resign Rodon.  I think Rodon >>> Keuchel vs Conforto >combo platter.     

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Three non top 100 prospects isn’t getting you Ketel Marte. 

That is our #1, 2 and 3 prospects.  I think you are dramatically undervaluing that package based on a 19 year old #1 draft pick who looked very good in his first year in pro ball, a top 10 international prospect from two years ago who had a tough time adjusting to American ball, and a $1 prospect who after two major surgeries and sitting two years came back last year and held his own in the majors.  If that package doesn't get Marte...well they can keep Marte.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

It’s a good move for The white Sox, I just can’t see how to do it without substantially  going over the luxury tax.

This, and the shittiness of all White Sox OFers defensively, apart from Roberts are why I prefer Suzuki over Conforto.

If Conforto's coming in at ~$20M/per, I don't see how it can work under the luxury tax. Especially as I believe that the White Sox will have to eat some of the moronic Kimbrel contract to have him fuck off. (GOD, I fucking hated that stupid shit.)

Also, despite Conforto's  history, he's coming off a down offensive and defensive year, with an injury to boot.

 

By contrast, Suzuki's been rumored to come in for anywhere from $7M, up to $11M/per; the SOX could easily fit that under the cap. And while he might have an adjustment period offensively, no one can question the man's glove and arm. 

Also, Suzuki's smaller price tag allows to further fortify a SP depth chart that desperately needs options beyond Lopez and Keuchel.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Bunt Ritual]

10 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 I think you are dramatically overstating how bad the combo platter defense would be.   Engel is an elite defender, Vaughn caught everything hit within fifteen feet of where his statue was and Sheets...is a lefty power bat.    But fine, let's play your game...Manny Ramirez might have been the worst outfield every...he consistently put up -2 dwar and yet had a 4 WAR regularly.   Lots of different ways to win games.  What we do know about the combo platter is that it will cost $20 million less per year than Conforto and you can use that money to resign Rodon.  I think Rodon >>> Keuchel vs Conforto >combo platter.     

I don't think it's remotely fair to compare Sheets/Engle/Vaughn to one of the best hitters in history (who also had their defensive ability hidden by The Green Monster)

[Sarava]

44 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The rest of the offseason should be pretty simple IMO:

• Sign Conforto to a 4/$80M deal
• Trade Kimbrel to the Phillies for Marchan & Alvarado
• Trade Burke, Burger, Sosa, & Adolfo to the A’s for Bassitt & Kemp
• Trade Mercedes to the Marlins for a lottery ticket
• Sign Ryan Tepera to a 2/$10M deal

Roster would be under the luxury tax and would look like this:

• Lineup: 1) Robert, CF | 2) Moncada, 3B# | 3) Abreu, 1B |4)  Jimenez, LF | 5) Conforto, RF* | 6) Anderson, SS | 7) Grandal, C# | 8) Vaughn, DH | 9) Kemp, 2B*
• Bench: IF) Mendick | OF) Engel | UT) Garcia# | BC) Marchan#
• Rotation: 1) Lynn | 2) Giolito | 3) Cease | 4) Bassitt | 5) Kopech
• Bullpen: CL) Hendriks | SU) Bummer* | SU) Graveman | MR) Crochet* | MR) Tepera | MR) Alvarado* | LR) Lopez | LR) Keuchel*

That roster is absolutely stacked and we’d actually have some depth in AAA with guys like Sheets, Collins, Gonzalez, Yogurt, The Basabe, Stiever, Lambert, Bilous, McClure, Burr, Foster, Severino, etc.

Kemp is the biggest wild card there, but 2B upgrades should be easily attainable at the deadline.  And I’m sure people will dislike the Phillies & A’s trades I’m proposing, but I think they allow us to build the most complete roster without disrupting the future too much.

I mean, sure. But why on earth do you think the A's would do that deal?

[Tnetennba]

10 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 I think you are dramatically overstating how bad the combo platter defense would be.   Engel is an elite defender, Vaughn caught everything hit within fifteen feet of where his statue was and Sheets...is a lefty power bat.    But fine, let's play your game...Manny Ramirez might have been the worst outfield every...he consistently put up -2 dwar and yet had a 4 WAR regularly.   Lots of different ways to win games.  What we do know about the combo platter is that it will cost $20 million less per year than Conforto and you can use that money to resign Rodon.  I think Rodon >>> Keuchel vs Conforto >combo platter.     

You just compared Manny Ramirez to 3 dudes that will be lucky to ever combine to come remotely close to a single season of what Manny produced at the plate.  Laughable comparison aside, Manny’s bat made up for his bad D.  Vaughn is the only of this combo platter amalgam of bad worthy of playing everyday, but not in RF.  Sheets is a statue running in mud in the OF.  Engel can’t stay healthy and shouldn’t face RH pitching.  Vaughn is adequate in LF but lacks the range for RF.  If I’m over exaggerating how bad they will be, you and others are blatantly ignoring the bad trying to squint and wish for it to be some magical solution not needing  desperately to be addressed.  It’s silly IMO to expect them to be a passable solution let alone a good one. 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

21 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 I think you are dramatically overstating how bad the combo platter defense would be.   Engel is an elite defender, Vaughn caught everything hit within fifteen feet of where his statue was and Sheets...is a lefty power bat.    But fine, let's play your game...Manny Ramirez might have been the worst outfield every...he consistently put up -2 dwar and yet had a 4 WAR regularly.   Lots of different ways to win games.  What we do know about the combo platter is that it will cost $20 million less per year than Conforto and you can use that money to resign Rodon.  I think Rodon >>> Keuchel vs Conforto >combo platter.     

How would they do at preventing runners from taking the extra base.  Stopping runners from scoring from 2nd on a single, scoring from 1st on a double or going first to third on a single.  Preventing runners from taking the extra base is kinda a big deal for a right fielder and It would be a god damn merry go round with Vaughn/Sheets in right field.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

4 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I mean, sure. But why on earth do you think the A's would do that deal?

And why would Philly take the entire steaming pile of Kimbrel's contract?

Seriously, SOX fans need to think about it this way:

If YOUR team were trading for an ancient closer who's been shitty for years, apart from a ~30 IP 1st half of 2021, would YOU be stoked if your team took on all steaming $16MM? AND traded away an asset?

 

Didn't think so. So I would make peace with the reality that it will likely take some cash to remove that tumor from the payroll. (Unless some other team has a last-minute injury, or their GM loses their fucking mind.)

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

You just compared Manny Ramirez to 3 dudes that will be lucky to ever combine to come remotely close to a single season of what Manny produced at the plate.  Laughable comparison aside, Manny’s bat made up for his bad D.  Vaughn is the only of this combo platter amalgam of bad worthy of playing everyday, but not in RF.  Sheets is a statue running in mud in the OF.  Engel can’t stay healthy and shouldn’t face RH pitching.  Vaughn is adequate in LF but lacks the range for RF.  If I’m over exaggerating how bad they will be, you and others are blatantly ignoring the bad trying to squint and wish for it to be some magical solution not needing  desperately to be addressed.  It’s silly IMO to expect them to be a passable solution let alone a good one. 

Yes I said the combo platter would hit .850 OPS which is not impossible given platoon advantages and obvious upside...it was you that compared them to Daniel Palka who was bad offensively and defensively.  To suggest they would be legendarily bad is wrong.  1/3 of the innings will be played by an elite defender...and Vaughn who never played RF before was competent.  Yes this is not perfect but neither is it terrible (and Conforto is NOT a good defender..-0.6 dWar).  Anyway the larger point is you have limited resources to fix three holes...2b, RF and 5th starter.  I'd rather see Combo +Rodon than Comforto + Keuchel.    

[michelangelosmonkey]

11 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

How would they do at preventing runners from taking the extra base.  Stopping runners from scoring from 2nd on a single, scoring from 1st on a double or going first to third on a single.  Preventing runners from taking the extra base is kinda a big deal for a right fielder and It would be a god damn merry go round with Vaughn/Sheets in right field.  

Yes...that's what dWar measures.  You sacrifice defense for offense.  Frank Howard had a three year run with an average -3 dWAR and positive 2.5 WAR. It doesn't matter how you get your WAR.  To keep suggesting that a bad defender will ruin the team is just wrong.   

[Harold's Leg Lift]

4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes...that's what dWar measures.  You sacrifice defense for offense.  Frank Howard had a three year run with an average -3 dWAR and positive 2.5 WAR. It doesn't matter how you get your WAR.  To keep suggesting that a bad defender will ruin the team is just wrong.   

dwar 

[Chicago White Sox]

38 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I mean, sure. But why on earth do you think the A's would do that deal?

Look, it may be light, but Bassitt only has one year of control and teams are starting to show an unwillingness to part with top prospects for one year rentals.  I also think that Burger probably has more value than what the big prospect publications believe.  Finally, the A’s typically think outside the box a bit  when it comes to trades as evident by the trade they acquired Bassitt in the first place.  Regardless, I’d be willing to pay more if need be, but I still don’t think Bassitt is going to command a crazy haul.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Chicago White Sox

[ChiSox59]

50 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

That is our #1, 2 and 3 prospects.  I think you are dramatically undervaluing that package based on a 19 year old #1 draft pick who looked very good in his first year in pro ball, a top 10 international prospect from two years ago who had a tough time adjusting to American ball, and a $1 prospect who after two major surgeries and sitting two years came back last year and held his own in the majors.  If that package doesn't get Marte...well they can keep Marte.  

That package doesn’t get Marte. Burger is soon to be 26 and not really even a prospect. Cespedes isn’t really all that exciting and isn’t that young either. Montgomery is a nice piece but not to headline a Marte deal. They’ll want Vaughn + from the Sox. More likely, Dbacks will be looking for younger prospects for Marte that the Sox don’t have. They’re a ways away. Guys like Burger and Cespedes probably won’t be of much interest to them. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The rest of the offseason should be pretty simple IMO:

• Sign Conforto to a 4/$80M deal
• Trade Kimbrel to the Phillies for Marchan & Alvarado
• Trade Burke, Burger, Sosa, & Adolfo to the A’s for Bassitt & Kemp
• Trade Mercedes to the Marlins for a lottery ticket
• Sign Ryan Tepera to a 2/$10M deal

Roster would be under the luxury tax and would look like this:

• Lineup: 1) Robert, CF | 2) Moncada, 3B# | 3) Abreu, 1B |4)  Jimenez, LF | 5) Conforto, RF* | 6) Anderson, SS | 7) Grandal, C# | 8) Vaughn, DH | 9) Kemp, 2B*
• Bench: IF) Mendick | OF) Engel | UT) Garcia# | BC) Marchan#
• Rotation: 1) Lynn | 2) Giolito | 3) Cease | 4) Bassitt | 5) Kopech
• Bullpen: CL) Hendriks | SU) Bummer* | SU) Graveman | MR) Crochet* | MR) Tepera | MR) Alvarado* | LR) Lopez | LR) Keuchel*

That roster is absolutely stacked and we’d actually have some depth in AAA with guys like Sheets, Collins, Gonzalez, Yogurt, The Basabe, Stiever, Lambert, Bilous, McClure, Burr, Foster, Severino, etc.

Kemp is the biggest wild card there, but 2B upgrades should be easily attainable at the deadline.  And I’m sure people will dislike the Phillies & A’s trades I’m proposing, but I think they allow us to build the most complete roster without disrupting the future too much.

You know how I feel about the Kimbrel deal so I’m not going to address that again, but let’s look at the tax number.

Right now the White Sox have about $15 million in space according to Spotrac. The Owners number submitted has a $4 million increase, so let’s just go with $20 million as a starting point. You ship Kimbrel out, so $36 million is available.

You add Conforto at $20 million, about $10.5 million for Kemp and Bassitt, $2 million for Marchan, and $5 million for Tepera. You have added $37.5 million, using estimates for the arb guys that could still be low?

That is over the tax line proposed by the owners by several million. Counting minimum salary guys and the fact that some people will probably hit the IL, this is only under the tax line of the tax goes up to at least $220 million this season, and it could be a very close call at that level, while the owners are hanging at $214 million so far.

[ChiSox59]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

You know how I feel about the Kimbrel deal so I’m not going to address that again, but let’s look at the tax number.

Right now the White Sox have about $15 million in space according to Spotrac. The Owners number submitted has a $4 million increase, so let’s just go with $20 million as a starting point. You ship Kimbrel out, so $36 million is available.

You add Conforto at $20 million, about $10.5 million for Kemp and Bassitt, $2 million for Marchan, and $5 million for Tepera. You have added $37.5 million, using estimates for the arb guys that could still be low?

That is over the tax line proposed by the owners by several million. Counting minimum salary guys and the fact that some people will probably hit the IL, this is only under the tax line of the tax goes up to at least $220 million this season, and it could be a very close call at that level, while the owners are hanging at $214 million so far.

The owners are hanging onto a lot of things right now. Ill take the over on $214M as ultimate luxury tax figure, but the scenario you just laid out is within a few million of that. Don’t sign Tepera and you’re there. Don’t trade for Bassitt - using @Chicago White Soxexample - and you’re there. Right now, we don’t even know for sure if there will the same form a luxury tax as we know it today. 

I get you always look for a contrarian angle, and we all have to admit the Sox commitments are getting close to max’d and certainly at franchise highs.  But there will be room for the Sox to add $25M or so to payroll still. They also probably aren’t taking back 4 non minimum guys via trade (Bassit, Kemp, Marchan and Alvarado), plus signing Tepera. That’s pipe dream imo. But if Conforto (or another RF in that $ realm for purposes of argument) is the constant, the Sox can make the $ work. They’re not just going to roll the ball out as is when the lockout ends.

[Flash]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

How would they do at preventing runners from taking the extra base.  Stopping runners from scoring from 2nd on a single, scoring from 1st on a double or going first to third on a single.  Preventing runners from taking the extra base is kinda a big deal for a right fielder and It would be a god damn merry go round with Vaughn/Sheets in right field.  

I believe you can research historical data and quantify the number of chances per game/season handled by RF. Sure there are unique variances based upon a host of factors (i.e, ballpark dimensions) and the relative strengths of certain players such as throwing arm and foot speed. That said, I doubt the marginal difference in performance between Comforto and the combo platter would be statistically significant. What is significant is the financial commitment (likely to exceed $20M/yr). I just don't think JR will pony up. I do think there are trade targets who could be within reach. Ketel is one, Sonny Gray, John Means and maybe Gavin Lux, Ian Happ or ???

[ScootsMcGoots]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Engel has proven he can’t be relied on to stay healthy over the course of  a full season.  He’s an excellent 4th OF and late game defensive replacement for Eloy and should not be used for anything more than that baring injury.

That too, and I agree. But who nowadays can be relied upon to stay healthy over the course of a full season? You could say the same thing about Eloy, Robert, Moncada, Grandal...but obviously their talent is far and away above that of Engel's. No position player on this team, aside from maybe Abreu, can be relied upon to remain healthy. Maybe this new training staff will change that though.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

The owners are hanging onto a lot of things right now. Ill take the over on $214M as ultimate luxury tax figure, but the scenario you just laid out is within a few million of that. Don’t sign Tepera and you’re there. Don’t trade for Bassitt - using @Chicago White Soxexample - and you’re there. Right now, we don’t even know for sure if there will the same form a luxury tax as we know it today. 

I get you always look for a contrarian angle, and we all have to admit the Sox commitments are getting close to max’d and certainly at franchise highs.  But there will be room for the Sox to add $25M or so to payroll still. They also probably aren’t taking back 4 non minimum guys via trade (Bassit, Kemp, Marchan and Alvarado), plus signing Tepera. That’s pipe dream imo. But if Conforto (or another RF in that $ realm for purposes of argument) is the constant, the Sox can make the $ work. They’re not just going to roll the ball out as is when the lockout ends.

I think people need to remember that the White Sox have barely begun their offseason with the only two moves being Graveman and Leury.  They still need to add a left-handed power bat, a 2B, and some sort of SP at a very minimum.  They will also almost certainly trade Kimbrel for something, potentially to address one of those three needs.  Once a CBA happens they will be as busy as any team in baseball and I would expect multiple trades to happen because the free agent market is limited in certain areas where we need help.

And regarding the financial situation, Hahn didn’t trade a cost controlled asset in Madrigal if it was going to hamstring him the following offseason.  There is definitely room to spend and they will likely push the payroll to the lowest luxury tax threshold.  And it’s almost certainly going to end up higher than the owners’ current proposal, so I agree we should be able to sign Conforto and address our other needs.  I do think we’re going to see more trades than most people here will like, but now is the time push some chips in.

[Chick Mercedes]

22 hours ago, poppysox said:

I have nothing against Conforto if we are going to spend money on a right fielder.  However...Vaughn, Sheets, Grandal, Eloy, Abreu, and Collins can't all be the DH.  I've stated earlier that I prefer using Vaughn and Sheets in a platoon with late-inning assistance from Engel.  Use the money on other areas of need being pitching, 2nd base, and perhaps a backup catcher if a good defensive catcher can be found.

Ugh. Hahn seriously has to finally clear all this up. I feel like the DH/1B/RF gang is like a huge kidney stone the Sox have to pass.

[Chicago White Sox]

50 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

That too, and I agree. But who nowadays can be relied upon to stay healthy over the course of a full season? You could say the same thing about Eloy, Robert, Moncada, Grandal...but obviously their talent is far and away above that of Engel's. No position player on this team, aside from maybe Abreu, can be relied upon to remain healthy. Maybe this new training staff will change that though.

Which is why Engel is so valuable to us as 4th OF and why I was so mad they signed Eaton to be their RF last year.

[Chick Mercedes]

16 hours ago, Flash said:

I've always liked Comforto but primarily for his bat. I'm guessing he could be expected to play better RF then a Sheets/Vaughn/Engel combo but how much so is anyone's guess. I'm less convinced that he would be a significant improvement offensively over the combo platter, as I have high expectations for them in '22. I am however entirely convinced that Marte would be a major improvement over Leury or any other potentially available 2B options. in a vacuum and all things being equal, I'd prefer Marte over Comforto.

It looks like the Sox are not very ambitious  at second base and right field. Years from now they still might be plugging in meh guys. 

[Thad Bosley]

2 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And why would Philly take the entire steaming pile of Kimbrel's contract?

Seriously, SOX fans need to think about it this way:

If YOUR team were trading for an ancient closer who's been shitty for years, apart from a ~30 IP 1st half of 2021, would YOU be stoked if your team took on all steaming $16MM? AND traded away an asset?

 

Didn't think so. So I would make peace with the reality that it will likely take some cash to remove that tumor from the payroll. (Unless some other team has a last-minute injury, or their GM loses their fucking mind.)

You make an interesting point, but then why pick up the option?  Take the $16M and go buy something pretty on the free agent market instead.  They must have some sort of sense of Kimbrel’s value that may not be clearly obvious to us at the moment.

[poppysox]

3 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And why would Philly take the entire steaming pile of Kimbrel's contract?

Seriously, SOX fans need to think about it this way:

If YOUR team were trading for an ancient closer who's been shitty for years, apart from a ~30 IP 1st half of 2021, would YOU be stoked if your team took on all steaming $16MM? AND traded away an asset?

 

Didn't think so. So I would make peace with the reality that it will likely take some cash to remove that tumor from the payroll. (Unless some other team has a last-minute injury, or their GM loses their fucking mind.)

Our GM could have not picked up his option if he viewed Kimbrel as unmovable for anything other than a bag of balls.  It seems reasonable to give a long-serving GM the benefit of the doubt that he knows the market better than anyone posting here.

[Sarava]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Our GM could have not picked up his option if he viewed Kimbrel as unmovable for anything other than a bag of balls.  It seems reasonable to give a long-serving GM the benefit of the doubt that he knows the market better than anyone posting here.

I assumed when they picked up the option that they had some offers on the table. So I had your point of view originally.

But now I'm nervous about it. Did they overplay their hand? Or did they pick up the option to save face and avoid admitting what a stupid trade it was? I'm not sure now. But I do feel confident that it's tieing up dollars that could be used elsewhere on the team, which sucks.

[poppysox]

16 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

Conforto makes too much sense, similar to how Grandal made too much sense a couple years ago. 

I think everyone agrees that Conforto makes sense if we didn't already have Vaughn/Sheets/Engel.  Since we only have the resource to pick one high-priced RF or 2B.  It's like saying would you prefer seeing Vaughn/Sheets or Garcia play every day.