Offseason Part 2 - Lets the Rumors & Action Begin

[fathom]

1 minute ago, Whisox05 said:

 

There it is

[Whisox05]

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

53 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

You still need to pay the guys you aquire, and if you blow it all on a 25 million a year deal for a guy who is always hurt, that cash is gone.

Thats absolutely fair, IF he'll sign for $25MM. But I believe he'll come in closer to $20MM/per.

But, my back of the envelope arithmetic had the SOX having ~$15MM CBT space before the new CBA. The new CBT adds $20MM in space.

Assuming it takes $10MM to get Kimbrel to fuck off, the SOX will have ~$41MM in CBT space. The SOX could use "Just Cash" to do one of the following:

(Assume Tepera @ $5MM/per, and a 2B token at $2MM/per.)

A. Kikuchi for $2/20MM, Suzuki for 5/$55MM, or $10MM + $11MM + $7MM = $28MM.

B. Conforto for 4/$80MM, Kikuchi for $2/20MM, or $20MM + $10MM + $7MM = $37MM

C. Suzuki for 5/$55MM, Rodon for 3/$60, or $11MM + $20MM + $7MM = $38MM.

 

IMO, it can (and should) be done for "Just Cash."

 

Just use cash. Save the trade assets for the TDL.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

There it is

I feel like we have a potential all-star at 7 of 9 positions...he's not wrong.  Go get Rodon and Tepera and hold your assets to the trade deadline.

[Whisox05]

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Whisox05

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Whisox05 said:

 

Well, if they do want to add another legit starter and go with a 6-man for a while, they can go back to a 5-man by getting rid of/moving Keuchel to pen at some point.

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I feel like we have a potential all-star at 7 of 9 positions...he's not wrong.  Go get Rodon and Tepera and hold your assets to the trade deadline.

That would be bad

[hogan873]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

There it is

I mean, he can't seriously expect the fans to be like, "Okay, we're cool, too with the current roster."

Huge hole in RF, smaller but still substantial hole at 2B, and a glaring need for another starter.  Not to mention more bullpen help.

I get it.  He can't say, "We have deals in the works and expect the team to look differently soon."  But enough with the "we're good as we are" bullshit.

[Whisox05]

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

59 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

They didn't look terrible at the time of the Shields trade.  They were risky...as all trades are.  It didn't work...oh well.    

Here's the other part of the context of that trade:

1. James Shields was 34 years old, so he was already in decline.

2. That year's white sox team was projected for a losing season before the year started.

3. After a miraculous start to 2016, the Robin Ventura-lead 2016 White Sox were predictably in free fall in the weeks leading up to them shitting their pants in trade (again). In other words, they were clearly in regression. 

4. SD's ownership was publicly ripping Shields for turning into a turd, which SHOULD HAVE trashed any negotiation leverage their FO might have had.

5. Cleveland were projected to be division leaders, and after a hesitant start, came on fire to crush the ALC, as predicted. In other words, they regressed to THEIR mean.

 

Despite ALL OF that, they still made a moronic trade, instead of selling pieces to look to another window to add to Abreu/Sale/Q.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Whisox05]

 

[Big Hurtin]

16 minutes ago, fathom said:

There it is

Not surprised in the slightest

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I love the idea, but don’t see Arizona trading both those two guys for the package outlined.  My guess is if they move those guys they will they are multiple years and looking for much younger talent.  And if that’s the case, salary relief has much less value.  Interesting concept though and hopefully Hahn is willing to think the box to improve this team.

Right I know how long the odds are that we get 2 good controlled good young players that solve SP and RF , gives the Sox another 11M under the cap and gets rid of Kimbrel and Keuchel all in one trade.

But I just wanted to show that there are creative ways to approach things and lots of other players out there than to keep hearing Bassitt, Montas, Manea, Marte, Conforto.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I’m bored, thought there would have been signings by now.

There was no chance gms were talking to agents during lockout given the serious legal ramifications, and with the cba changing and the cbt going up I imagine agents may shift their asks a bit. Think we'll see a waterfall of moves this weekend but I wasn't expecting much yesterday and early today.

[SoCalChiSox]

4 minutes ago, Big Hurtin said:

Not surprised in the slightest

In fairness, he also doesn't want to give agents leverage by openly stating the obvious.

[Whisox05]

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Here's the other part of the context of that trade:

1. James Shields was 34 years old, so he was already in decline.

2. That year's white sox team was projected for a losing season before the year started.

3. After a miraculous start to 2016, the Robin Ventura-lead 2016 White Sox were predictably in free fall. In other words, they were clearly in regression. 

4. SD's ownership was publicly ripping Shields for turning into a turd, which SHOULD HAVE trashed any negotiation leverage their FO might have had.

5. Cleveland were projected to be division leaders, and after a hesitant start, came on fire to crush the ALC, as predicted. In other words, they regressed to THEIR mean.

 

Despite ALL OF that, they still made a moronic trade, instead of selling pieces to look to another window to add to Abreu/Sale/Q.

1) So was Verlander...and then he had a resurgence.  

2) I think fate forced the White Sox to go for it...no one thought Sale would be THAT good, no one thought Quintana was anything.  Rodon was looking great as a rookie.  Abreu and Eaton looked like stars and they started out 24-12.   We are mad that they went for it?  No we are mad Shields sucked.  

3) They were making the trade in the midst of their hot run...way before trade deadline.  A top four of Sale, Q, Rodon and Big game was tantalizing.  

4) He wasn't a turd...he was a very good 3-4 starter.  The owner was mad he wasn't Chris Sale because he paid him like Chris Sale.  

5) They didn't HAVE to win the division...just make the playoffs...and ride a couple of stud pitchers to the WS like Arizona did a few years before with Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling.  

The trade was only moronic because they threw in a lottery ticket that happened to be the Powerball winner.  Never, ever put a powerball ticket in a birthday card. It can only turn out badly.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

28 minutes ago, fathom said:

There it is

Best part of the lockout was not having to hear these type of rick hahn quotes.

[ChiSox59]

12 minutes ago, Big Hurtin said:

Not surprised in the slightest

I mean he kind of has to say that.  

[ChiSox59]

Would have definitely preferred he come out and say 2B and RF are big time priorities, but we know they are.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

If that's true, then well... not offering him the qualifying offer certainly was a choice.

When I have trouble making up my mind on an issue I just think how could the Sox FO have fucked this up.

A lot of people here stuck up for the Sox FO because of the "they know him best" routine so there must be something wrong with him. I took the opposite approach that he was fine, just worn out.  His innings pitched the last few years indicated way ahead of time that he would likely wear down. Plus he did make starts down the stretch and one in the playoffs right ?

I might think the Sox FO is terrible but I don't think they would have started Rodon if there was anything structurally wrong with his arm. So that left some other odd unknown reason why they didn't use the QO and there's the FO fuck up.

The guy gave it everything he had last year and that's why I want him back . Oh yea along with being maybe the best pitcher in baseball the 1st half of the season.

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

1) So was Verlander...and then he had a resurgence.  

2) I think fate forced the White Sox to go for it..

3) They were making the trade in the midst of their hot run..

4) He wasn't a turd...he was a very good 3-4 starter.  The owner was mad he wasn't Chris Sale because he paid him like Chris Sale.   

1. Incorrect. Justin Verlander was in the middle of a 4.1 fWAR season at age 34. He went for 5.4, 3.1, and 3.2 fWAR in the 3 seasons prior to then. So no, Verlander wasn't in any sort of decline as Shields was.

2. I think the SOX FO didn't do any sort of projections at the time, or ignored them, or a combination. Back then, KW had a maddening George Custer-like idiocy to always go for it, when prudence dictated otherwise.

3. This is outright false. Shields was traded on 4 June. In the 10 games prior to the trade, they'd gone 2-8, including a 7 game losing streak. In the 15 games before June 4, they went 5-10. They were clearly Free Fallin'. 

4. In Shields' age 33 season, he went for 0.8 fWAR. That means his decline was already beginning the year before the SOX made that moronic trade.

Also, he came pre-injured, which was additionally stoopid.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

You forgot David Robertson.  Cabrera and Laroche were solid signings (at the time). 

A lot of this place hated the Melky and LaRoche deals. I was pretty sure I hated the Laroche deal but didn't hate the Melky deal. But plenty of people hated both.

[SoxBlanco]

2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

1) So was Verlander...and then he had a resurgence.  

2) I think fate forced the White Sox to go for it...no one thought Sale would be THAT good, no one thought Quintana was anything.  Rodon was looking great as a rookie.  Abreu and Eaton looked like stars and they started out 24-12.   We are mad that they went for it?  No we are mad Shields sucked.  

3) They were making the trade in the midst of their hot run...way before trade deadline.  A top four of Sale, Q, Rodon and Big game was tantalizing.  

4) He wasn't a turd...he was a very good 3-4 starter.  The owner was mad he wasn't Chris Sale because he paid him like Chris Sale.  

5) They didn't HAVE to win the division...just make the playoffs...and ride a couple of stud pitchers to the WS like Arizona did a few years before with Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling.  

The trade was only moronic because they threw in a lottery ticket that happened to be the Powerball winner.  Never, ever put a powerball ticket in a birthday card. It can only turn out badly.  

Somewhat funny story about Shields' second year with the Sox:

Before the season, I was claiming that Shields wasn't as bad as his 2017 made him seem.  I made a friendly wager with a buddy of mine (for a case of beer) that he would have an ERA under 4.55 in 2018. I still don't know why I picked 4.55, but my buddy gladly took the bet. It came down to the very last inning of his last start and I needed him to complete the inning with no runs. Inning starts with a walk and a single, so it's first and third with nobody out.  Next guy lines out to third. Guy after that flies out shallow to right (no tag). Then Lindor comes up and Shields goes to a full count.  The entire stupid bet came down to 1 pitch, and he struck Lindor out to finish the inning. 4.53 ERA, and the beer tasted great.

I know, I know...cool story, bro.

[chitownsportsfan]

34 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

I mean, he can't seriously expect the fans to be like, "Okay, we're cool, too with the current roster."

Huge hole in RF, smaller but still substantial hole at 2B, and a glaring need for another starter.  Not to mention more bullpen help.

I get it.  He can't say, "We have deals in the works and expect the team to look differently soon."  But enough with the "we're good as we are" bullshit.

I mean this is how Hahn talks to the media. He's done the same thing for over 10 years now. Not sure why people react with anything but a shrug. He could be working on spending 200 million or 2 million in FA and he'd say the same shit.