Jack Parkman Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, KBX said: Why was Vazquez a good move? He was mediocre the previous two years, and he was a choker. He did have a career year the next year when the Sox were out of contention. Thome was a good guy to have but the point was that he came at the expense of a starting CF and that was a problem for several years thereafter. As far as forward-thinking goes, I mean Vazquez kept Brandon McCarthy out of the rotation, and the Rowand trade handed Brian Anderson a starting job and he was obviously terrible. Without trading for Vazquez, McCarthy for Danks never happens. Danks was good until his arm fell off. Edited March 17, 2022 by Jack Parkman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shago Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 4 hours ago, Chisoxfn said: So Sox are still a really good team - but this front office is still trash too. Period - end of story. Jerry is a cheap fck, period, end of story. Sox either luck into a title with lightening in a bottle ('05) or they field a middle of the road team. With this talent, they should be going for it, but will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneofthemikes Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) If Jerry isn’t going to change his negotiation style to fit with the times, he needs to sell this team to someone interested in actually running it. He’s gonna piss away his best core in 2 decades because he’s stubborn and cheap. The Rockies just gave out a $162M deal, the Blue Jays are trading for stars to add to a championship core, the Dodgers spend money like there’s no tomorrow and Jerry buys another reliever and trots a couple 1B out to RF because the actual difference makers wanna be paid as such. What a pathetic excuse for an owner.* *This rant will be partially rescinded pending a Conforto/Castellanos signing and a trade for a good SP. Edited March 17, 2022 by oneofthemikes 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, oneofthemikes said: If Jerry isn’t going to change his negotiation style to fit with the times, he needs to sell this team to someone interested in actually running it. He’s gonna piss away his best core in 2 decades because he’s stubborn and cheap. The Rockies just gave out a $162M deal, the Blue Jays are trading for stars to add to a championship core, the Dodgers spend money like there’s no tomorrow and Jerry buys another reliever and trots a couple 1B out to RF because the actual difference makers wanna be paid as such. What a pathetic excuse for an owner.* *This rant will be partially rescinded pending a Conforto/Castellanos signing and a trade for a good SP. Castellanos still isn't good enough defensively...that said, we'd probably just hear the excuse at the trade deadline that they have no financial flexibility remaining to improve the team if they added $18~22 million now. Can't spend $1 if you only have 60-75 cents, etc. At least this way, Hahn has to conceive of a totally new excuse at that time. Edited March 17, 2022 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthSideGeorgia Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Made a small addition to the original… 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 RH has stated many times the White Sox planned to contend for multiple championships. It's about time he backs it up. No team that thinks it's realistic to win multiple championships, acts like the Pirates well below the CBT line. If RH was serious he would know the CBT line would have to be flirted with and probably breached or he's not being serious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 3 hours ago, KBX said: Why was Vazquez a good move? He was mediocre the previous two years, and he was a choker. He did have a career year the next year when the Sox were out of contention. Thome was a good guy to have but the point was that he came at the expense of a starting CF and that was a problem for several years thereafter. As far as forward-thinking goes, I mean Vazquez kept Brandon McCarthy out of the rotation, and the Rowand trade handed Brian Anderson a starting job and he was obviously terrible. I’m not suggesting the moves worked out perfectly, but the Sox needed a legit left-handed power bat (why does that seem relevant ?) and got one who was between good and excellent for three seasons. Rowand ended up not being very good outside of a ridiculous 2007 season and KW thought his former 1st round pick could step in and replace Aaron. Obviously he was wrong on the self evaluation of Anderson, but it was a gamble worth taking in hopes of achieving a second championship. As for the Vazquez deal, KW knew the rotation was going to be beat up from a long postseason. He knew he needed another arm (why does that seem relevant ?) and got one who provided 200+ innings each year, a ~3.80 FIP, and nearly 15 fWAR. Yes, he always pitched worse than his peripherals and was a bit of a choker, but those innings were incredibly valuable in 2006.. It was a forward thinking move that provided significantly more value in the three years we had him than Chris Young provided the Diamondbacks during that time (~3.3 fWAR total). Was it a perfect move? No, but again, KW saw a need and used a position of depth (in this case CF) to address another hole. Honestly, Rick Hahn needs to take note. When you have a window to win, you need to take calculated gambles and go for it. Funny Rick has the same exact needs now that KW had at that time. Can he use some of his redundant 1B/DH/LF depth to plug one of those holes? Hopefully Rick has been able to convince someone on Jake Burger as a centerpiece for a SP, because that’s exactly what KW would be doing right now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: I’m not suggesting the moves worked out perfectly, but the Sox needed a legit left-handed power bat (why does that seem relevant ?) and got one who was between good and excellent for three seasons. Rowand ended up not being very good outside of a ridiculous 2007 season and KW thought his former 1st round pick could step in and replace Aaron. Obviously he was wrong on the self evaluation of Anderson, but it was a gamble worth taking in hopes of achieving a second championship. As for the Vazquez deal, KW knew the rotation was going to be beat up from a long postseason. He knew he needed another arm (why does that seem relevant ?) and got one who provided 200+ innings each year, a ~3.80 FIP, and nearly 15 fWAR. Yes, he always pitched worse than his peripherals and was a bit of a choker, but those innings were incredibly valuable in 2006.. It was a forward thinking move that provided significantly more value in the three years we had him than Chris Young provided the Diamondbacks during that time (~3.3 fWAR total). Was it a perfect move? No, but again, KW saw a need and used a position of depth (in this case CF) to address another hole. Honestly, Rick Hahn needs to take note. When you have a window to win, you need to take calculated gambles and go for it. Funny Rick has the same exact needs now that KW had at that time. Can he use some of his redundant 1B/DH/LF depth to plug one of those holes? Hopefully Rick has been able to convince someone on Jake Burger as a centerpiece for a SP, because that’s exactly what KW would be doing right now. Chris “Don’t Call Me Cris” Carter for The Carlos Quentin Edited March 17, 2022 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Giants keep adding depth. Would have preferred to Boyd to Velasquez if that was are only true “depth” signing. Still think we trade for a starter from the A’s though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Dick Allen said: RH has stated many times the White Sox planned to contend for multiple championships. It's about time he backs it up. No team that thinks it's realistic to win multiple championships, acts like the Pirates well below the CBT line. If RH was serious he would know the CBT line would have to be flirted with and probably breached or he's not being serious. I'm not sure the problem is Hahn. If Jerry is willing to spend the money on a yearly basis, but refuses to give long contracts. That takes the Sox out of the running for almost all premium talent free agents. Are we still paying the price as fans for the Julio Cruz contract? Jerry was paying that one for almost 20 years if I remember right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Giants keep adding depth. Would have preferred to Boyd to Velasquez if that was are only true “depth” signing. Still think we trade for a starter from the A’s though. Didn’t realize Boyd would be out for two months, so perhaps he doesn’t really help with the early season grind like Velasquez can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Sarava said: I'm not sure the problem is Hahn. If Jerry is willing to spend the money on a yearly basis, but refuses to give long contracts. That takes the Sox out of the running for almost all premium talent free agents. Are we still paying the price as fans for the Julio Cruz contract? Jerry was paying that one for almost 20 years if I remember right. Jerry authorized an 8/$250M deal for Machado and a 5/$125M deal for Wheeler. At some point it falls on Hahn to actually sign someone to a nine figure deal. The fact that Grandal’s $72M deal is the largest in team history is beyond embarrassing. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 23 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: I’m going to repeat this again, but when Hahn was asked if there was an agent / player he called as soon as the lockout ended he very purposely said “yes” with a massive smirk on his face. He also said adding pitching depth would be a priority, so not surprising to see the Kelly & Velasquez additions made shortly thereafter. So unless we think the agent he was alluding to was Josh Harrison’s, the reality is he’s likely still having conversations with that aforementioned target. And personally, I’m very confident that the agent Hahn was referencing was Scott Boras whether there is anything connecting us to him or not. Also, just a reminder that Conforto has draft pick compensation tied to him. That’s going to scare off some teams, especially when he’s also coming off a down year. I just don’t see this massive market for him just yet. We’ve seen names like the Marlins, Rockies, & Diamondbacks listed as teams of possible interest. That’s never a good sign for your market when Boras has to scrape to those levels. In all honesty, I’m far more worried Hahn Machado’s himself again and allows another team not currently in the mix to jump in last second because he wasn’t aggressive enough from the get go. Well it's down to just Conforto left now, right? I can't say that i'm confident the Sox will sign him. But if you are, I'll run with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) Now that the Dodgers have added Freeman's LH bat, and a lot more payroll, could they be interested in moving Bellinger and his $17 Million salary, before he becomes a free agent, in 2024? It might not take that much to get him, considering his recent struggles and the upside is enormous, albeit a big gamble. L.A. could move Taylor to center and put Pollock back in the outfield, instead of using him as a DH, which is suggested to be their current plan. They could probably use Kimbrel, and the money would be pretty much a wash. Edited March 17, 2022 by Lillian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said: Jerry authorized an 8/$250M deal for Machado and a 5/$125M deal for Wheeler. At some point it falls on Hahn to actually sign someone to a nine figure deal. The fact that Grandal’s $72M deal is the largest in team history is beyond embarrassing. Wheeler I acknowledge. Machado - I've always felt the Sox structured their offer in a way they knew wouldn't be accepted. I'm not convinced they wanted more than a seat at the table. And the reality is, once they lost on Machado, Bryce Harper was still out there for taking and seemingly without a team, and the Sox media moles all immediately snuffed out any potential Sox interest. I personally think Harper would of jumped at a Sox offer over Philly if it was in the ballpark. It felt like he went there because nvbody else really wanted him and that scale of a contract. It's too bad. He would of solved many issues for this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 If the Sox only make one more significant move, would we rather see a trade for a SP (Manaea, Montas) or a signing of a RF (Conforto, Castellanos)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 It really all falls on Hahn. With a team with World Series aspirations, he needs to be able to sign premium talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 9 minutes ago, Lillian said: Now that the Dodgers have added Freeman's LH bat, and a lot more payroll, could they be interested in moving Bellinger and his $17 Million salary, before he becomes a free agent? It might not take that much to get him, considering his recent struggles and the upside is enormous, albeit a big gamble. L.A. could move Taylor to center and put Pollock back in the outfield, instead of using him as a DH, which is suggested to be their current plan. It’s worth a shot. I don’t think the Dodgers would risk missing out on him having another good year…but the problem is “what do we send back”. The Dodgers wouldn’t take a bad contract back unless the White Sox added serious talent, so how are the White Sox going to have room for him when they’re $17 million under the tax line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, Sarava said: I'm not sure the problem is Hahn. If Jerry is willing to spend the money on a yearly basis, but refuses to give long contracts. That takes the Sox out of the running for almost all premium talent free agents. Are we still paying the price as fans for the Julio Cruz contract? Jerry was paying that one for almost 20 years if I remember right. 14 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Jerry authorized an 8/$250M deal for Machado and a 5/$125M deal for Wheeler. At some point it falls on Hahn to actually sign someone to a nine figure deal. The fact that Grandal’s $72M deal is the largest in team history is beyond embarrassing. 1 minute ago, maloney.adam said: It really all falls on Hahn. With a team with World Series aspirations, he needs to be able to sign premium talent. Remember folks, they also said that the Kelly signing came together because of LaRussa. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the power of the GM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 6 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: By several weak seasons you mean like 26 innings… 26 innings…out of 95 total. Yeah that’s not a compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: It’s worth a shot. I don’t think the Dodgers would risk missing out on him having another good year…but the problem is “what do we send back”. The Dodgers wouldn’t take a bad contract back unless the White Sox added serious talent, so how are the White Sox going to have room for him when they’re $17 million under the tax line? Good point. Perhaps the front office could accept a one year, small luxury tax, if they agreed to send back some money for Kimbrel's contract. The Dodgers probably wouldn't care that much about prospects, as they still have one of the better farm systems. Moreover, there isn't much in the Sox system that they would covet. A swap of Kimbrel and money, for Bellinger could certainly solve a few problems ie; move Kimbrel, fill the hole in RF for two years, and balance the lineup with some LH power. Nevertheless, the Sox would still need another starter. Edited March 17, 2022 by Lillian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Hypothetically, what else would have to be added with Kimbrel to get Lux having both Harrison and Leury on the bench? Cash or a prospect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, Sarava said: Wheeler I acknowledge. Machado - I've always felt the Sox structured their offer in a way they knew wouldn't be accepted. I'm not convinced they wanted more than a seat at the table. And the reality is, once they lost on Machado, Bryce Harper was still out there for taking and seemingly without a team, and the Sox media moles all immediately snuffed out any potential Sox interest. I personally think Harper would of jumped at a Sox offer over Philly if it was in the ballpark. It felt like he went there because nvbody else really wanted him and that scale of a contract. It's too bad. He would of solved many issues for this team. I think it’s as simple as Jerry being unwilling to go beyond eight years and KW / Hahn being completely oblivious where his market would end up by slow playing him for months. They tried to add some option years at the end last minute, but by the end the Padres had blown us out of the water from a guaranteed money perspective. It wasn’t some conspiracy but rather unrealistic / poor negotiating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: 26 innings…out of 95 total. Yeah that’s not a compliment. 26 innings is less than a full season for Kimbrel… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: Hypothetically, what else would have to be added with Kimbrel to get Lux having both Harrison and Leury on the bench? Cash or a prospect? Lux for Kimbrel was never going to happen. The Dodgers would certainly want Vaughn if they were going to move Lux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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