Offseason Part 2 - Lets the Rumors & Action Begin

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, fathom said:

That ship has sailed IMO. Not sure any of us would want him on the contract he’s going to get.

Maybe so but it shouldn't have left the harbor. The QO should 've been given. There's no ifs ands and buts about it now if teams are offering him 50M+. I don't think a Keuchel-like offer is out of the question but is it enough ?

[Eminor3rd]

48 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Shields had put up 19 WAR in the previous 5 seasons and had a +.7 WAR in 11 starts that year.  His ERA was 3.0 after 10 starts and then he had that horrible start where he gave up 10 runs in 2 innings.  You could, at the time, say that presaged a miserable decline (which it did) or you could say it was an outlier and we were getting a great 4th starter to help us reach the playoffs.   It wasn't stupid...it didn't work.     

It was stupid. Shields was an absolute textbook example of a pitcher whose peripherals very clearly showed he was in decline and that his recent results were not sustainable. That was clear at the time of the deal, not merely with the benefit of hindsight. 

I, and many others, hated that deal at the time it was made, and it had nothing to do with Tatis, but rather with the opportunity cost attached to making such an obviously bad and costly (in terms of salary added) decision on an upgrade they sorely needed. 

[Sleepy Harold]

 

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe so but it shouldn't have left the harbor. The QO should 've been given. There's no ifs ands and buts about it now if teams are offering him 50M+. I don't think a Keuchel-like offer is out of the question but is it enough ?

Agreed should have been given

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

It was stupid. Shields was an absolute textbook example of a pitcher whose peripherals very clearly showed he was in decline and that his recent results were not sustainable. That was clear at the time of the deal, not merely with the benefit of hindsight. 

I, and many others, hated that deal at the time it was made, and it had nothing to do with Tatis, but rather with the opportunity cost attached to making such an obviously bad and costly (in terms of salary added) decision on an upgrade they sorely needed. 

I hate the San Diego Padres to this day for sending us obviously damaged goods and getting away with it.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Understood. And I've been critical of Rodon in the past, because for much of his tenure here, he looked like a two-legged hippo who didn't take care of his body. 

To his credit, since the surgery Rodon has looked more fit, as a professional with any sort of pride should look.

 

But Bassitt also has downside risks to his future performance that can't be ignored. Whats more, Bassitt will cost trade assets and cash. Rodon just costs cash.

Just use cash.

Rodon will cost more cash than Bassitt and will prevent us from addressing other areas which is why Bassitt requires prospect currently to acquire.

[chitownsportsfan]

29 minutes ago, Whisox05 said:

 

Is that Mark Zuckerburg or TLR there in the hoodie and dark levis?

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

Comparison of three pitchers over the past two seasons:

Pitcher A:  41 GS, 241 IP, 3.62 FIP

Pitcher B:  38 GS, 220 IP, 3.41 FIP

Pitcher ? 43 GS, 251 IP, 3.62 FIP

No idea who those are.  I’m guessing Bassitt is one of them, but not sure which.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Rodon will cost more cash than Bassitt and will prevent us from addressing other areas which is why Bassitt requires prospect currently to acquire.

I think the gap between Bassitt and Rodon vs rostered RF vs FA RF is so heavily weighted that the emphasis needs to be spending on a position player if there is limitation on spending.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't remember Dye being a bad RFer. 

You trolling me bro?  Like any ball hit down the RF line was an automatic triple.  Dude was brutal out there, especially his last couple years with us.  Check out his defensive stats if you don’t believe me.

[southsider2k5]

No word on if he followed up on his vs RHP splits.

 

[iWiN4PreP]

I think all the Rick Hahn talk is meaningless.

I let their offseason activities talk for them.

IMO they've been very bad/poor during offseasons and trade deadlines. I have not been happy.

But let's see what happens this offseason - it doesn't take much here to make it a good one.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Re-read what was written. I didn't make the strawman argument you just posted. I wrote:

See?

I do see now…lol.  But to my original point, the risk is significantly higher with Suzuki than it is with Conforto.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Rodon will cost more cash than Bassitt and will prevent us from addressing other areas which is why Bassitt requires prospect currently to acquire.

I'm thinking Rodon will be $20MM-ish/per, which would then mean that you'd have to go with Suzuki at ~$11MM-ish/per.

I get that Rodon precludes Conforto, but I like Suzuki better in any case. But then, you also have trade assets to use at the TDL.

 

Trading for Bassitt takes trade assets out of our pocket, and in any case, he's not all that different that players that just cost cash. Especially when he'd be pitching away from Oakland if he came here.

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Is that Mark Zuckerburg or TLR there in the hoodie and dark levis?

It's Tony. He got his Just for Men in. Looks a lot trimmer. Maybe the best shape of his life.

[Two-Gun Pete]

16 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I do see now…lol.  But to my original point, the risk is significantly higher with Suzuki than it is with Conforto.

Thats entirely a fair position.

I think that Suzuki's GOLD glove and penchant for drawing walks ALONE is worth ~1.5 fWAR. I agree that there are risks in his hit-for-average and hit-for-power tools adjusting to MLB.

But if he hits as ZIPs thinks he will, SURPLUS VALUE, BABY!!!!! At age 27, I think its more likely that he WILL be able to adjust than he won't; this isn't some 30+ year old like Fukudome trying to adjust to MLB. This is a star just entering his prime. (Plus, it'll fuck over bahsten and the scrubs and any other enemies that want to land Suzuki.)

OTOH, if he doesn't, his smaller contract (estimated at ONLY $11MM/per) and Glove/eye mean that it won't be totally shambolic. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[SoxBlanco]

14 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

No idea who those are.  I’m guessing Bassitt is one of them, but not sure which.

It's hopefully our playoff rotation in 7 months (not necessarily in that order):

A:  Lynn

B:  Bassitt

C  Giolito

Edited March 11, 2022 by SoxBlanco

[chitownsportsfan]

11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You trolling me bro?  Like any ball hit down the RF line was an automatic triple.  Dude was brutal out there, especially his last couple years with us.  Check out his defensive stats if you don’t believe me.

He continued a long WS tradition of really shitty defensive corner OF. He had a nice arm but anything down the line was an automatic triple as you said. Hit the piss out of the ball for the most part tho.

[chw42]

Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

He continued a long WS tradition of really shitty defensive corner OF. He had a nice arm but anything down the line was an automatic triple as you said. Hit the piss out of the ball for the most part tho.

I don't think Dye was bad defensively in 05. But it really went down the shitter in 06 and afterwards. 

[southsider2k5]

 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

You mean they were as bad as the RF the last time they won the World Series?   But young and cheap and part of the future?   Remember you have Engel as your defensive outfielder probably 40% of the time.  Vaughn was brand new at RF and will get better.  Shields is mostly a situational piece.   And I know you hate this but...not one of them is as bad as Manny Ramirez in the outfield with his ten time All Star appearances and multiple World Series wins.  

Is your argument can we win a World Series with bad defense out of RF?  I mean sure, anything is possible.  But what you actually said is Vaughn & Sheets would only hurt our defense “a bit” which I fully disagree with.  Now, if you’re telling me I’m somehow getting Hall of Fame offensive production out of Vaughn & Sheets, then sure, I’ll endure some shit defense but that seems a bit optimistic to me

Also, not sure what you mean we got Engel as our defensive OF 40% of the time.  Are you suggesting he comes into each game during the 6th?

[Two-Gun Pete]

Holy shit, I just looked.

 

JD was -1 DRS in '05, but by '07, he was -27!!! In a corner OF position.

[hi8is]

This is awesome.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

The projections are fine to look at, but what do you actually believe will happen?  Do you think Rodon or Bassitt will have a higher WAR next year?

Hmm best pitcher in baseball last year for the 1st half of the season who's arm predictably got weary who is 29 and who other clubs have looked at his meds and aren't scared off vs. a pitcher who has only 2 full years out of the last 6 that he threw complete seasons and is 33. I'll go with paying just money for Rodon .

I also don't think a some creative trades are out of the question in which multiple pieces are moved for younger talent . Youth for youth but also Kimbrel and Keuchel for a bigger contract then those 2 combined. Time is a factor but simplifying things and going for another 1 yr contract for a pitcher with an extensive injury history while giving up depth and youth isn't the answer.

[chw42]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Is your argument can we win a World Series with bad defense out of RF?  I mean sure, anything is possible.  But what you actually said is Vaughn & Sheets would only hurt our defense “a bit” which I fully disagree with.  Now, if you’re telling me I’m somehow getting Hall of Fame offensive production out of Vaughn & Sheets, then sure, I’ll endure some shit defense but that seems a bit optimistic to me

Also, not sure what you mean we got Engel as our defensive OF 40% of the time.  Are you suggesting he comes into each game during the 6th?

The Braves won a WS with Duvall in CF and Rosario and Pederson/Soler in the corners. That's about as slow of an outfield as you can get. That doesn't mean other teams should try to do the same.