White Sox Sign RP Joe Kelly (2yrs with a club option; $17m)

[Two-Gun Pete]

18 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Something happening first doesn't mean it was a priority, it means that it was an easier transaction to complete. Is it really that hard for you to understand that?

Priorities can either be in order of occurrence, or by size of assets allocated.

$34.5MM to the pen, $15.5MM to the OF.

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It started with the ridiculous strawman about allocation.

Here: Wikipedia'd that for you.

I've posted the data, courtesy of Spotrac. You've cited imaginary posts.

Go ahead: find a post by anyone that made any of the statements you claimed were made.

Thanks.

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Priorities can either be in order of occurrence, or by size of assets allocated.

$34.5MM to the pen, $15.5MM to the OF.

 

What is the track record of teams who have allocated twice as much to the pen as the OF in the middle of the offseason, before completing all of their transactions?

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

What is the track record of teams who have allocated twice as much to the pen as the OF in the middle of the offseason, before completing all of their transactions?

We don't have a record of that, TBH.

As we post this, the only teams that have more $ in the bullpen than the SOx are the yankmees and SD. Both of them also have more $ into their OF as well.

The other issue is that the longer the RF hole persists, the more enemy FOs get involved in the Conforto and Suzuki markets. We saw this same thing when Machado was on offer; as the SOX dawdle, SD finally said, "fuck it," and swooped in.

We'll have to see. 

[southsider2k5]

37 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Priorities can either be in order of occurrence, or by size of assets allocated.

$34.5MM to the pen, $15.5MM to the OF.

Here: Wikipedia'd that for you.

I've posted the data, courtesy of Spotrac. You've cited imaginary posts.

Go ahead: find a post by anyone that made any of the statements you claimed were made.

Thanks.

Yes, you found your definition.  Congrats.  Now hopefully you understand that making up some standard by which teams have to spend money, without understanding that external factors can render that theory useless, is the very definition of a strawman. 

[GreenSox]

While I would prefer signing a starter, I like the approach.
The upper (and perhaps lower) system is light on pitching, so we sign it.
We have young ML ready hitters, so use them.

[Dick Allen]

A guy on MLBN said LaRussa was the driving force in the Kelly signing. Tony was working for Boston when Kelly was there.

[caulfield12]

On the plus side, he should be better than Kelvin Herrera...

Tying to remember another former Royals' Latin starter (somewhere around 2014-2016) we took a flier on coming back from injury and was pretty much hot garbage.  He threw hard but straight...unfortunately the ball went back in the other direction at an even higher rate of velocity.  Didn't last long, maybe 5-6 starts.

[ChiSoxFanMike]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

On the plus side, he should be better than Kelvin Herrera...

Tying to remember another former Royals' Latin starter (somewhere around 2014-2016) we took a flier on coming back from injury and was pretty much hot garbage.  He threw hard but straight...unfortunately the ball went back in the other direction at an even higher rate of velocity.  Didn't last long, maybe 5-6 starts.

Felipe Paulino

[caulfield12]

24 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Felipe Paulino

Right, thanks.  Think that was one of those Buddy Bell specials.

[FoxForce2]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yes, you found your definition.  Congrats.  Now hopefully you understand that making up some standard by which teams have to spend money, without understanding that external factors can render that theory useless, is the very definition of a strawman. 

Nothing wrong with strawman exercises as long as everyone involved understands that the given activity is a strawman and what a strawman proposal/argument is in the first place. I'm risking getting pedantic here, but have spent years planning military options and courses of action and have used strawman processes with excellent results. Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a relevant point in these exercises.

[SoxBlanco]

4 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

The other issue is that the longer the RF hole persists, the more enemy FOs get involved in the Conforto and Suzuki markets.

I have no idea if we are pursuing Conforto, but if we are, it was never going to be a quick signing with Boras as his agent. We could have thrown the highest offer at him as soon as the lockout ended (like we did with Grandal at the start of the 2020 offseason), and he wouldn’t have jumped on it like Grandal did. 

[Balta1701]

26 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

I have no idea if we are pursuing Conforto, but if we are, it was never going to be a quick signing with Boras as his agent. We could have thrown the highest offer at him as soon as the lockout ended (like we did with Grandal at the start of the 2020 offseason), and he wouldn’t have jumped on it like Grandal did. 

It could absolutely have been a quick signing! Half of Boras’s big names signed in November and the first big signing after the lockout was Rodon.

Getting a quick signing done means you have to pay a few million more than you want. Meet the guy’s contract demands and it’s done.

[Balta1701]

7 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again, you are missing the underlying reason why you think they are not allocated to your expectations.  When your rotation is mostly young and cheap, you aren't going to have a heavy allocation there. When your line up is young and cheap at the typically most expensive to fill positions such as SS, 3B, CF, etc, again,  you won't have a heavy allocation there either. That essentially leaves the pen to spend on.  And they did. They also spent to see guys like Grandal and to extend Lynn.

Here's the thing, the White Sox weren't supposed to have to sign and trade for 6 different guys to fill out their bullpen. They were supposed to have filled at least some of those slots internally, and then by filling the bullpen that would let them get higher quality players elsewhere. The fact that they couldn't do that should actually be viewed as a major concern and maybe a failure. I'll let you make the case here:

On 4/7/2018 at 11:55 AM, southsider2k5 said:

[CeaseAndExist]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Here's the thing, the White Sox weren't supposed to have to sign and trade for 6 different guys to fill out their bullpen. They were supposed to have filled at least some of those slots internally, and then by filling the bullpen that would let them get higher quality players elsewhere. The fact that they couldn't do that should actually be viewed as a major concern and maybe a failure. I'll let you make the case here:

Who are the 6?

[CeaseAndExist]

34 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Here's the thing, the White Sox weren't supposed to have to sign and trade for 6 different guys to fill out their bullpen. They were supposed to have filled at least some of those slots internally, and then by filling the bullpen that would let them get higher quality players elsewhere. The fact that they couldn't do that should actually be viewed as a major concern and maybe a failure. I'll let you make the case here:

Who are the 6? 

[poppysox]

20 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I'm glad I fill your heart with joy as you traverse the open seas.

Once again, I'll provide you with the source data Courtesy of Spotrac.

 

For argument's sake If, IF they can dump all $16MM of Kimbrel (which I doubt they can, but IF), they will spend $34.5MM, which is all of $800k less than SD.

League average is $13.89MM for an entire BP.

You can peruse the link, but it is clear that this org appears to be overallocated into RP salaries, even without Kimbrel.

 

We got to the playoffs in 2005 because of our lockdown pen.  We had a really good all-around team back then but the BP was key IMO.  I am one of those guys that thinks you can never have too much pitching.  Also, a lockdown BP is really good for my nerves as I get older.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

17 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

Who are the 6?

You could some of those yourself. Hendriks, Kimbrel, Tepera, Graveman, Kelly Velasquez. Maybe Colome Evan Marshall ,Jimmy Cordero came from came from outside the organization but they were cheap . There could be more if we are talking about since April of 2018.

Edited March 14, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CeaseAndExist]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You could some of those yourself. Hendriks, Kimbrel, Tepera, Graveman, Kelly Velasquez. Maybe Colome Evan Marshall ,Jimmy Cordero came from outside the organization came from outside the organization but he was cheap  there could be more if we are talking about since April of 2018.

There isn't a team in MLB that hasn't traded for/signed as FA at least 6 RP since 2018. Even you could figure that out yourself.

If there were 6 in 2022, maybe  @Balta1701 would have a point. There arent.

It's Hendricks, Kelly, Graveman, a near min deal for VV, then Kimbrel who everyone expects to be traded. 

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, poppysox said:

We got to the playoffs in 2005 because of our lockdown pen.  We had a really good all-around team back then but the BP was key IMO.  I am one of those guys that thinks you can never have too much pitching.  Also, a lockdown BP is really good for my nerves as I get older.  

I’m sorry, the bullpen in 05 was nice, but that year was the White Sox’s starting pitching first, second, third, and fourth. Bullpen and defense were the next things on the list. The starters were that team.

[poppysox]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

I’m sorry, the bullpen in 05 was nice, but that year was the White Sox’s starting pitching first, second, third, and fourth. Bullpen and defense were the next things on the list. The starters were that team.

The bullpen was lockdown and we don't get to the playoffs without them.  Of course, the SP was top-notch as well.  Actually, we had a very well-balanced club in most ways.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

There isn't a team in MLB that hasn't traded for/signed as FA at least 6 RP since 2018. Even you could figure that out yourself.

If there were 6 in 2022, maybe  @Balta1701 would have a point. There arent.

It's Hendricks, Kelly, Graveman, a near min deal for VV, then Kimbrel who everyone expects to be traded. 

I see no point in arguing at all. I'm not going to look up a blanket statement covering all MLB teams and see how many relief pitchers they signed or traded for. Balta was specifically having a discussion with SS2k5 and used his own words against him. 20 guys in the minors and he wasn't worried about the BP for the next few years. I don't know how long the next few years meant .You'd have to ask the source or ask him who the 20 pitchers were in which he had all that confidence.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, CeaseAndExist said:

There isn't a team in MLB that hasn't traded for/signed as FA at least 6 RP since 2018. Even you could figure that out yourself.

If there were 6 in 2022, maybe  @Balta1701 would have a point. There arent.

It's Hendricks, Kelly, Graveman, a near min deal for VV, then Kimbrel who everyone expects to be traded. 

That makes 6 in 2 offseasons/one trade deadline (count Tepera on top of the 5 you listed). 6 bullpen pitchers brought in over the last 14 months. That is not what was supposed to be happening when Hahn was being praised for how all those bullpen arms he stockpiled would make the bullpen no concern at all. That’s a huge miss on all the guys who were supposed to fill up that bullpen.

[KBX]

Staff ERA+ was 125 and they won a lot of 1 run games. In 2006 it went down to 103.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I see no point in arguing at all. I'm not going to look up a blanket statement covering all MLB teams and see how many relief pitchers they signed or traded for. Balta was specifically having a discussion with SS2k5 and used his own words against him. 20 guys in the minors and he wasn't worried about the BP for the next few years. I don't know how long the next few years meant .You'd have to ask the source or ask him who the 20 pitchers were in which he had all that confidence.

This was a point that was made by a number of people during the rebuild - Hahn was piling up these minor league relievers and people were saying he was doing a great job because some of them were going to turn into big leaguers, so we wouldn’t have to spend big on the bullpen. Now, people are saying it’s obvious that they were going to spend big on the bullpen and it just shows what a great job was done. 

Well no, the first bullpen plan went belly up, they’ve been dumping assets into the bullpen since 2019, it’s really starting to take its toll, and now they have an extremely high priced bullpen that is expensive enough it is potentially costing elsewhere.

This may very well work! Maybe having a strong and expensive veteran bullpen is more important than a LH bat. But if it doesn’t, we should be clear as can be that this was a choice of the GM and manager, and a result of the work of the GM. The GM brought in a bunch of arms that were supposed to fill these roles and they flopped. Now, they decided to spend huge resources on the bullpen and not elsewhere, so let’s make sure we evaluate them based on these moves when we see the final product. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This was a point that was made by a number of people during the rebuild - Hahn was piling up these minor league relievers and people were saying he was doing a great job because some of them were going to turn into big leaguers, so we wouldn’t have to spend big on the bullpen. Now, people are saying it’s obvious that they were going to spend big on the bullpen and it just shows what a great job was done. 

Well no, the first bullpen plan went belly up, they’ve been dumping assets into the bullpen since 2019, it’s really starting to take its toll, and now they have an extremely high priced bullpen that is expensive enough it is potentially costing elsewhere.

This may very well work! Maybe having a strong and expensive veteran bullpen is more important than a LH bat. But if it doesn’t, we should be clear as can be that this was a choice of the GM and manager, and a result of the work of the GM. The GM brought in a bunch of arms that were supposed to fill these roles and they flopped. Now, they decided to spend huge resources on the bullpen and not elsewhere, so let’s make sure we evaluate them based on these moves when we see the final product. 

People have short memories. The Sox FO as a whole has made terrible mistakes in all area of the organization for a long time now. You name it scouting and development, Intl draft, college draft, biomechanics, sabermetrics, friends and family , trades , Free agency, admitting they underestimated a market. When did Hahn say that? November ? December ?