Offensively, the Sox are better in RF than either of the last two years

[VAfan]

Right field for the White Sox.  It's the topic that never stops being talked about.

Conforto, Castellanos, Suzuki ...  add one of them, please, exhort many on Soxtalk.  

I've been of the view since the offseason that the Sox should give the ABs to their young players instead.

In 2020, RF was Nomar Mazara and Adam Engel.  Engel was the better player, but Mazara got most of the ABs.

In 2021, it was Eaton for 55 games (76 OPS+), Goodwin for 43 games (90 OPS+), Garcia 34 games (96 OPS+), Vaughn 18 games (92 OPS+), Sheets 13 games (123 OPS+), Engel 10 games (124 OPS+), Lamb 9 games (94 OPS+), Mendick 8 games (64 OPS+),  Romy Gonzalez 3 games (64 OPS+), Bill Hamilton 2 games (67 OPS+).

In 2022, if RF is manned by Adam Engel, Andrew Vaughn, Gavin Sheets, Leury Garcia, and Josh Harrison. 

- Engel is clearly the best fielder of the group. He's also put up very good hitting numbers the last two years, albeit in limited ABs because of injuries.
- Vaughn played 120 games in the outfield last year, so he showed durability.  He just ran out of gas at the end of the year.
- Sheets is the lefty power bat the Sox have craved, and was the best hitter of this group.  He should get most of his ABs at DH, but the Sox have a lot of other players they can rotate through DH, so Sheets will need to play 1B and the OF to stay in the lineup against all righties.
- Garcia will get used by LaRussa a lot, so expect him to play a fair amount in RF. 
- Harrison will be the primary 2B, but also plays RF and LF and 3B, so expect him to get some time out there as well.  

As hitters, all 5 of these guys produced better than most of the guys the Sox played in RF the last two years -- Mazara in 2021, and Eaton, Goodwin, Lamb, and Mendick in 2022. 

Granted, Vaughn and Sheets are not the best defenders, but this is where having Engel, Garcia and Harrison help, because they can not only cover late in games in RF, but also in LF for Jimenez. 

This group is also dirt cheap, with Sheets and Vaughn both pre-Arb players, and Engel making just over $2M.  If the Sox need to save money somewhere, this is the place. 

The Sox may not have the best RFs in baseball, but it's clearly a stronger offensive group than it was the last two years.  

[caulfield12]

21 minutes ago, VAfan said:

Right field for the White Sox.  It's the topic that never stops being talked about.

Conforto, Castellanos, Suzuki ...  add one of them, please, exhort many on Soxtalk.  

I've been of the view since the offseason that the Sox should give the ABs to their young players instead.

In 2020, RF was Nomar Mazara and Adam Engel.  Engel was the better player, but Mazara got most of the ABs.

In 2021, it was Eaton for 55 games (76 OPS+), Goodwin for 43 games (90 OPS+), Garcia 34 games (96 OPS+), Vaughn 18 games (92 OPS+), Sheets 13 games (123 OPS+), Engel 10 games (124 OPS+), Lamb 9 games (94 OPS+), Mendick 8 games (64 OPS+),  Romy Gonzalez 3 games (64 OPS+), Bill Hamilton 2 games (67 OPS+).

In 2022, if RF is manned by Adam Engel, Andrew Vaughn, Gavin Sheets, Leury Garcia, and Josh Harrison. 

- Engel is clearly the best fielder of the group. He's also put up very good hitting numbers the last two years, albeit in limited ABs because of injuries.
- Vaughn played 120 games in the outfield last year, so he showed durability.  He just ran out of gas at the end of the year.
- Sheets is the lefty power bat the Sox have craved, and was the best hitter of this group.  He should get most of his ABs at DH, but the Sox have a lot of other players they can rotate through DH, so Sheets will need to play 1B and the OF to stay in the lineup against all righties.
- Garcia will get used by LaRussa a lot, so expect him to play a fair amount in RF. 
- Harrison will be the primary 2B, but also plays RF and LF and 3B, so expect him to get some time out there as well.  

As hitters, all 5 of these guys produced better than most of the guys the Sox played in RF the last two years -- Mazara in 2021, and Eaton, Goodwin, Lamb, and Mendick in 2022. 

Granted, Vaughn and Sheets are not the best defenders, but this is where having Engel, Garcia and Harrison help, because they can not only cover late in games in RF, but also in LF for Jimenez. 

This group is also dirt cheap, with Sheets and Vaughn both pre-Arb players, and Engel making just over $2M.  If the Sox need to save money somewhere, this is the place. 

The Sox may not have the best RFs in baseball, but it's clearly a stronger offensive group than it was the last two years.  

Sure, but then the assumption for now is that Harrison's your starting 2B.

Most are at the point where they're starting to accept that the current window might only have 2 and at most 3 years remaining...which means trading Vaughn/Sheets/Burger, getting rid of Kimbrel somehow and using that money on a LEGIT everyday RFer, namely, Conforto or Suzuki.

We've never actually tried to do that (doing anything but throwing castoffs and reclamation projects at holes), finding legit, at least "above average" everyday players.

Curiously, the one area where we made the biggest club investment was in Grandal, when we already had Narvaez and then McCann.

Lynn was fine, as long as he holds up physically (once again, portending a shortened window), but we've already missed the expiration date on Keuchel, another place where that "unprecedented financial flexibility" was invested.

Which leaves us with Hendriks and Kimbrel (inefficient allocation of  resources to have two guys paid as elite closers at the same time)...and extending Abreu well into his mid 30's and likely being the end of Vaughn's abbreviated tenure with the White Sox.

 

 

So we've lost or pushed out Rodon and Madrigal...and are on the verge of pushing out Vaughn, Sheets and Burger.   That's not to mention the alleged "mishandling" of Kopech and Crochet, certainly losing years of control and their not developing as most of us expected.   Let's not even get started on Zack Collins and Carson Fulmer.

Invariably, almost inexorably, we keep getting OLDER and OLDER, but not necessarily better.

Ultimately, Giolito and Anderson will be the next two to go (unless JR is willing to break the bank for TA7)...and then you're suddenly not looking at a young/er/ish core at all, you'll basically have just Moncada (at $25 million), all the "valued added" aspect of Jimenez long gone and then one superstar who we have to hope and pray (based on who's playing on both sides of him in the outfield) stays healthy in Luis Robert.

Edited March 15, 2022 by caulfield12

[ShoeLessRob]

Garcia is a terrible defender in the OF. 

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, VAfan said:

Right field for the White Sox.  It's the topic that never stops being talked about.

Conforto, Castellanos, Suzuki ...  add one of them, please, exhort many on Soxtalk.  

I've been of the view since the offseason that the Sox should give the ABs to their young players instead.

In 2020, RF was Nomar Mazara and Adam Engel.  Engel was the better player, but Mazara got most of the ABs.

In 2021, it was Eaton for 55 games (76 OPS+), Goodwin for 43 games (90 OPS+), Garcia 34 games (96 OPS+), Vaughn 18 games (92 OPS+), Sheets 13 games (123 OPS+), Engel 10 games (124 OPS+), Lamb 9 games (94 OPS+), Mendick 8 games (64 OPS+),  Romy Gonzalez 3 games (64 OPS+), Bill Hamilton 2 games (67 OPS+).

In 2022, if RF is manned by Adam Engel, Andrew Vaughn, Gavin Sheets, Leury Garcia, and Josh Harrison. 

- Engel is clearly the best fielder of the group. He's also put up very good hitting numbers the last two years, albeit in limited ABs because of injuries.
- Vaughn played 120 games in the outfield last year, so he showed durability.  He just ran out of gas at the end of the year.
- Sheets is the lefty power bat the Sox have craved, and was the best hitter of this group.  He should get most of his ABs at DH, but the Sox have a lot of other players they can rotate through DH, so Sheets will need to play 1B and the OF to stay in the lineup against all righties.
- Garcia will get used by LaRussa a lot, so expect him to play a fair amount in RF. 
- Harrison will be the primary 2B, but also plays RF and LF and 3B, so expect him to get some time out there as well.  

As hitters, all 5 of these guys produced better than most of the guys the Sox played in RF the last two years -- Mazara in 2021, and Eaton, Goodwin, Lamb, and Mendick in 2022. 

Granted, Vaughn and Sheets are not the best defenders, but this is where having Engel, Garcia and Harrison help, because they can not only cover late in games in RF, but also in LF for Jimenez. 

This group is also dirt cheap, with Sheets and Vaughn both pre-Arb players, and Engel making just over $2M.  If the Sox need to save money somewhere, this is the place. 

The Sox may not have the best RFs in baseball, but it's clearly a stronger offensive group than it was the last two years.  

How much are the White Sox paying you to create these threads?  No one is arguing that a Vaughn / Sheets combo won’t be better offensively then the absolute shit hitting we got out of RF the last two seasons.  People are concerned whether it’s enough to offset the value destroying defense they will provide and put too much strain on Robert.

Also, what good does this “saving money” concept do if Hahn is just going to use it on more relievers and utility men?  I mean, you are actually trying to argue that Leury Garcia getting a lot of playing time in RF and Josh Harrison getting any playing time in RF is somehow a good thing.  Get me a legit two way RF instead of forcing a combination of 1B, middle infielders, and a guy made of glass in there.  We’re in our championship window, please stop dicking around and address the position once and for all.

[FoxForce2]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

... then one superstar who we have to hope and pray (based on who's playing on both sides of him in the outfield) stays healthy in Luis Robert.

And not exactly proven re: health and ability to stay on the field there. I cringe when he slides headfirst - which he almost always does. Slender thread to hang a three piece suit on.
I wonder who the Sox could get for Eloy and Kimbrel?
<---- Standing by for heavy rolls.

[caulfield12]

23 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

And not exactly proven re: health and ability to stay on the field there. I cringe when he slides headfirst - which he almost always does. Slender thread to hang a three piece suit on.
I wonder who the Sox could get for Eloy and Kimbrel?
<---- Standing by for heavy rolls.

They really can’t afford to trade Jimenez at 65-75 cents on the dollar.  Almost feel like they’re further discounting Jimebez trying to leverage Kimbrel in a deal to offload him (when we wouldn’t likely be trading Jimenez in the first place had they not exercised rgw Kimbrel option.)  The argument all offseason was that there were abundant bidders out there for his services…and, at worst we might have to send $2-4 million or the talent equivalent along with him, or simply swap equivalent bad contracts like Jean Segura with the Phillies or let’s say Wil Myers with the Padres for argument’s sake.

It would honestly make more sense to trade Moncada and install Burger at 3B…because they need to get power from somewhere in the lineup assuming Abreu’s going to hit his rapid decline stage in the next year or two.  Jimenez and Robert are likely to be those two guys…and possibly Vaughn depending on his eventual fate.

[FoxForce2]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

It would honestly make more sense to trade Moncada and install Burger at 3B…because they need to get power from somewhere in the lineup assuming Abreu’s going to hit his rapid decline stage in the next year or two.  Jimenez and Robert are likely to be those two guys…and possibly Vaughn depending on his eventual fate.

Lot of variables with Burger. He made a couple of really nice plays in his cup of coffee last year, but is he really a full time 3B? i haven't kept close tabs on his progress reports, but he's never been known as a sterling fielder - good athlete yes - but not necessarily a high tier MLB infielder. And then the ankles...
I'm less than half-serious about an Eloy trade, but that less than half is intriguing re: who you could get for him.

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How much are the White Sox paying you to create these threads?  No one is arguing that a Vaughn / Sheets combo won’t be better offensively then the absolute shit hitting we got out of RF the last two seasons.  People are concerned whether it’s enough to offset the value destroying defense they will provide and put too much strain on Robert.

Also, what good does this “saving money” concept do if Hahn is just going to use it on more relievers and utility men?  I mean, you are actually trying to argue that Leury Garcia getting a lot of playing time in RF and Josh Harrison getting any playing time in RF is somehow a good thing.  Get me a legit two way RF instead of forcing a combination of 1B, middle infielders, and a guy made of glass in there.  We’re in our championship window, please stop dicking around and address the position once and for all.

Sheets and Vaughn are not right fielders, Vaughn is adequate in left. Leury should never play the OF, please Sox, sign someone to play right field that can field and hit and someone better thsn Harrison for second base, I'd rather see Leury at second. So far, the Sox have not made one trade that has improved the club.

Sheets and Vaughn should be the DH's on a platoon basis. 

[The Mighty Mite]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They really can’t afford to trade Jimenez at 65-75 cents on the dollar.  Almost feel like they’re further discounting Jimebez trying to leverage Kimbrel in a deal to offload him (when we wouldn’t likely be trading Jimenez in the first place had they not exercised rgw Kimbrel option.)  The argument all offseason was that there were abundant bidders out there for his services…and, at worst we might have to send $2-4 million or the talent equivalent along with him, or simply swap equivalent bad contracts like Jean Segura with the Phillies or let’s say Wil Myers with the Padres for argument’s sake.

It would honestly make more sense to trade Moncada and install Burger at 3B…because they need to get power from somewhere in the lineup assuming Abreu’s going to hit his rapid decline stage in the next year or two.  Jimenez and Robert are likely to be those two guys…and possibly Vaughn depending on his eventual fate.

Wouldn't bother me to trade Moncada, his career has not progressed as well as we thought though he has turned into a fine third baseman. 

[FoxForce2]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Sheets and Vaughn are not right fielders, Vaughn is adequate in left. Leury should never play the OF, please Sox, sign someone to play right field that can field and hit and someone better thsn Harrison for second base, I'd rather see Leury at second. So far, the Sox have not made one trade that has improved the club.

Sheets and Vaughn should be the DH's on a platoon basis. 

IMO Vaughn needs plate appearances, especially against RHP. Saw more than a little warning track power late last year.

[FoxForce2]

19 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Wouldn't bother me to trade Moncada, his career has not progressed as well as we thought though he has turned into a fine third baseman. 

I think he's a leadoff hitter, but I doubt TA would think too highly of that.

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Wouldn't bother me to trade Moncada, his career has not progressed as well as we thought though he has turned into a fine third baseman. 

Moncada, 14.8 fWAR in 539 career games (4.45 per season of 162 games, extrapolated)

Tatis, Jr., 12.7 fWAR in 273 career games (7.5 per season)

Buxton, 13.0 fWAR in 493 career games (4.3 per season)

Robert, 4.7 fWAR in 124 career games (6.14 per season)

Eloy Jimenez, 3.6 fWAR in 232 career games (2.5 per season)

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by caulfield12

[The Mighty Mite]

10 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

I think he's a leadoff hitter, but I doubt TA would think too highly of that.

That works for me, he has a good eye at the plate. 

[Sarava]

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone with some fans here openly advocating the Sox make their defense as piss-poor as possible. This is a formula for winning the AL central going away, and then being easily cast aside in the first round of the playoffs as the Sox were the past 2 seasons.

[thxfrthmmrs]

6 hours ago, VAfan said:

Right field for the White Sox.  It's the topic that never stops being talked about.

Conforto, Castellanos, Suzuki ...  add one of them, please, exhort many on Soxtalk.  

I've been of the view since the offseason that the Sox should give the ABs to their young players instead.

In 2020, RF was Nomar Mazara and Adam Engel.  Engel was the better player, but Mazara got most of the ABs.

In 2021, it was Eaton for 55 games (76 OPS+), Goodwin for 43 games (90 OPS+), Garcia 34 games (96 OPS+), Vaughn 18 games (92 OPS+), Sheets 13 games (123 OPS+), Engel 10 games (124 OPS+), Lamb 9 games (94 OPS+), Mendick 8 games (64 OPS+),  Romy Gonzalez 3 games (64 OPS+), Bill Hamilton 2 games (67 OPS+).

In 2022, if RF is manned by Adam Engel, Andrew Vaughn, Gavin Sheets, Leury Garcia, and Josh Harrison. 

- Engel is clearly the best fielder of the group. He's also put up very good hitting numbers the last two years, albeit in limited ABs because of injuries.
- Vaughn played 120 games in the outfield last year, so he showed durability.  He just ran out of gas at the end of the year.
- Sheets is the lefty power bat the Sox have craved, and was the best hitter of this group.  He should get most of his ABs at DH, but the Sox have a lot of other players they can rotate through DH, so Sheets will need to play 1B and the OF to stay in the lineup against all righties.
- Garcia will get used by LaRussa a lot, so expect him to play a fair amount in RF. 
- Harrison will be the primary 2B, but also plays RF and LF and 3B, so expect him to get some time out there as well.  

As hitters, all 5 of these guys produced better than most of the guys the Sox played in RF the last two years -- Mazara in 2021, and Eaton, Goodwin, Lamb, and Mendick in 2022. 

Granted, Vaughn and Sheets are not the best defenders, but this is where having Engel, Garcia and Harrison help, because they can not only cover late in games in RF, but also in LF for Jimenez. 

This group is also dirt cheap, with Sheets and Vaughn both pre-Arb players, and Engel making just over $2M.  If the Sox need to save money somewhere, this is the place. 

The Sox may not have the best RFs in baseball, but it's clearly a stronger offensive group than it was the last two years.  

If your baseline is the worst RF production in baseball over the last 2 years, then sure these guys could do marginally better in 2022, far from enough to be league average, especially not enough for a team looking to make the WS.

Also 2 of the guys you mentioned will compete for DH while the other will start at 2B. So are you really creating a thread on how confident you feel about Engel/Leury/Vaughn against RHH starting at RF for a playoff team?

Edited March 15, 2022 by thxfrthmmrs

[Tnetennba]

No

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

How are we better in RF?

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

How are we better in RF?

Offensively, I would say so. If either of Vaughn/Sheets could play average at best defense in RF, we would be fine. Need a real RF.

[caulfield12]

Haven’t the White Sox had the worst fWAR in all of MLB cumulatively for RF since the beginning of 2018?   I mean, should we be taking all that much pride we might have the 27th-29th RFer and farm system this year?

Adam Eaton was very good in 2016, and Avi Garcia 4.2 fWAR in 2017.

Avi since he left the White Sox is even 5.5 fWAR in 313 games, an average of 2.85 fWAR per season.

We would GLADLY take that out of RF in 2022.   (Or Nick Madrigal’s 1.4 in 83 career games, which works out to 2.73 for an entire season.)

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by caulfield12

[Tnetennba]

When the corpse of Nomar Mazara is your baseline, you might want to set your sights slightly higher than a nebulous claim that they are “better.”

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Tnetennba said:

When the corpse of Nomar Mazara is your baseline, you might want to set your sights slightly higher than a nebulous claim that they are “better.”

Mazara, Eaton’s 2021 Corpse Bride and Palka’s second Sox season…yikes.

[Tnetennba]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Mazara, Eaton’s 2021 Corpse Bride and Palka’s second Sox season…yikes.

On par with putting a bandaid over a gaping hole in your leg and calling it better. 

[turnin' two]

18 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Mazara, Eaton’s 2021 Corpse Bride and Palka’s second Sox season…yikes.

GIVE ME PALKA!  Say what you want, but that dude was fun at least.  

[JoeC]

This thread reminds me of this commercial:

 

[caulfield12]

Vafan…you just ended up making people MORE upset than they already were with our outfield situation.

While optimism is all fine and good, like for Luis Robert, it’s badly misplaced here.

(I should be an expert now, having to listen to what the Chinese are saying about the war in Ukraine as well as Covid-19 on an everyday basis…it’s like living in a bizarro alternative reality show, if you ever saw “Goodbye, Lenin!”)

Edited March 15, 2022 by caulfield12