Offseason Part 3 - Because Part 2 Was a Dud

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Fun fact: that post contained eleven player names.

Wow, I'm quite flattered you took time out of your busy life to count.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Zach McKinstry for Kimbrel and $2-4 million makes some sense.

Unless we are super confident in Harrison or Leury, there needs to be a better option than Romy or Mendick IMO.

I guess Micker Adolfo has already been awarded RF, with Vaughn at DH/1B and Sheets/Burger traded for starting pitching…fwiw, Cespedes looks pretty sharp out there in center, granted only one play.  Maybe it’s the lack of good jumps and routes by the majority of our outfielders last year.

I agree with your observation that Adolfo and Cespedes both looked like the real deal.  Maybe a little patience will pay off.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I have this crazy idea that 500 > 60, and 140 > 60.

In other words, an everyday player that can play in ~140 games/year in the field, + get you ~500 PA/yr is more valuable than a garden-variety 60 IP reliever.

I also believe that a 140 IP SP generally helps you win more than a 60 IP RP.

 

So simply from usage alone, everyday player needs > RPs. Also, SPs needs > RPs. If your club has ANY weaknesses in your everyday lineup or rotation, address them, FIRST.

Crazy idea, right? 

It's a valid way to look at it. I just disagree.  Good pitching will beat good hitting more often than not.

Plus with a team that has a good offense already I will pick to reinforce the weakness for a more balanced team.

While RPs pitch fewer innings I'll say that they can be more important innings

As far as hitters versus pitchers, hitter se may 30 pitches if they take a lot of pitches in a games while each individual pitcher throws more than that.

[Two-Gun Pete]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It's a valid way to look at it. I just disagree.  Good pitching will beat good hitting more often than not.

Plus with a team that has a good offense already I will pick to reinforce the weakness for a more balanced team.

While RPs pitch fewer innings I'll say that they can be more important innings

As far as hitters versus pitchers, hitter se may 30 pitches if they take a lot of pitches in a games while each individual pitcher throws more than that.

So, by your logic, if you were a GM of a NFL team, you'd spend lavishly on specialists, like PKs, punters, and long-snappers.

Because, even though they play fewer plays than your, I dunno, center, their plays can be "more important plays," amirite?

Edited March 21, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I agree with your observation that Adolfo and Cespedes both looked like the real deal.  Maybe a little patience will pay off.

Adolfo is gone within the next three weeks.  And let’s not overreact to four spring training games, Yoelqui needs to prove himself in AA before we make any plans around him.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

So, by your logic, if you were a GM of a NFL team, you'd spend lavishly on specialists, like PKs, punters, and long-snappers.

Because, even though they play fewer plays than your, I dunno, center, their plays can be "more important plays," amirite?

No. That's a bad analogy.  Punters and kickers don't handle the ball 30 times a game like a pitcher does.

Specialits are relative. Football is not identical to baseball.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

So, by your logical, if you were a GM of a NFL team, you'd spend lavishly on specialists, like PKs, punters, and long-snappers.

Because, even though they play fewer plays than your, I dunno, center, their plays can be "more important plays," amirite?

That’s a ridiculous analogy and you know it.  Look at what closers get paid on a per inning basis and tell me high leverage outs aren’t more valuable than other outs.

And I’m not even disagreeing with you general premise that we should address the main holes (RF / 2B / SP) before spending at the top of the market for multiple relief pitchers.

[hi8is]

So… what’s a “big contract” that we could be looking at for Kimbrel?

[Ducksnort]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

No. That's a bad analogy.  Punters and kickers don't handle the ball 30 times a game like a pitcher does.

Specialits are relative. Football is not identical to baseball.

The only thing you'd really have in baseball that might be considered a specialist is the backup pinch-runner. Used to be left-handed specialists before the 3-batter minimum rule.

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, hi8is said:

So… what’s a “big contract” that we could be looking at for Kimbrel?

I thought he meant Kimbrel with the big contract 

[Two-Gun Pete]

13 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No. That's a bad analogy.  Punters and kickers don't handle the ball 30 times a game like a pitcher does.

Specialits are relative. Football is not identical to baseball.

Not at all. Both specialists in football and RPs in baseball are necessary. 

But they're simply not AS necessary as everyday players, and SPs. FFS, Leury Garcia, whom we're all supposed to hate, provided as much fWAR as every RP, except for 10 RPs last season. Nick Madrigal provided as much fWAR  as the 25th-best RP in what, 54 games?

Full stop, RPs cannot move the needle as much as everyday players and/or SPs, simply because they do not play as much.

 

Also, you keep referencing the "solid at 7 of 9" thing. Now add in injury histories to the everyday regulars, and tell us how soon we'll see AAAA types in the OF, behind the plate, at SP, and at 2B. This FURTHER underscores the need to address everyday players and SPs, first.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

I’m starting to lean more and more in favor of keeping Kimbrel because we all know that the Sox wouldn’t use that freed up money on anyone good if they would even spend that money at all.

[fathom]

Just now, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I’m starting to lean more and more in favor of keeping Kimbrel because we all know that the Sox wouldn’t use that freed up money on anyone good if they would even spend that money at all.

Why would we want someone who sucks in the position he would be in

[poppysox]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Adolfo is gone within the next three weeks.  And let’s not overreact to four spring training games, Yoelqui needs to prove himself in AA before we make any plans around him.

Yeah...I watched the whole game and liked it a lot.  I'll try to find something to be critical of in my future viewing.  Oh...by the way...Tanner Banks looks awesome.

[hi8is]

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

I thought he meant Kimbrel with the big contract 

I wouldn’t think of 1 year for 16m as a big contract myself… took it as us trading him for a big contract.

[Two-Gun Pete]

12 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

That’s a ridiculous analogy and you know it.  Look at what closers get paid on a per inning basis and tell me high leverage outs aren’t more valuable than other outs.

And I’m not even disagreeing with you general premise that we should address the main holes (RF / 2B / SP) before spending at the top of the market for multiple relief pitchers.

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Leury provided as much fWAR as all but 10 RPs, 9 of whom were closers. So yes, the very specialized roles of closers can be as crucial as Robbie Gould hitting a last second kick.

But your garden variety RP < a cromulent everyday player, just as a PK < a cromulent NFL starter.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

Why would we want someone who sucks in the position he would be in

I’m not convinced he’s always going to suck as a set up man. Last year was a different set of circumstances. He knows his role this year from the get go (assuming he stays here), that could benefit him.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, hi8is said:

I wouldn’t think of 1 year for 16m as a big contract myself… took it as us trading him for a big contract.

I guarantee it will suddenly be "big money" right around the TDL time...we'll probably hear some excuse such as we exhausted our trade capital last July.

[RTC]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Yeah...I watched the whole game and liked it a lot.  I'll try to find something to be critical of in my future viewing.  Oh...by the way...Tanner Banks looks awesome.

You’re finally getting the hang of this!!! 

[fathom]

8 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I’m not convinced he’s always going to suck as a set up man. Last year was a different set of circumstances. He knows his role this year from the get go (assuming he stays here), that could benefit him.

He absolutely doesn’t want that role

[ptatc]

9 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Not at all. Both specialists in football and RPs in baseball are necessary. 

But they're simply not AS necessary as everyday players, and SPs. FFS, Leury Garcia, whom we're all supposed to hate, provided as much fWAR as every RP, except for 10 RPs last season. Nick Madrigal provided as much fWAR  as the 25th-best RP in what, 54 games?

Full stop, RPs cannot move the needle as much as everyday players and/or SPs, simply because they do not play as much.

 

Also, you keep referencing the "solid at 7 of 9" thing. Now add in injury histories to the everyday regulars, and tell us how soon we'll see AAAA types in the OF, behind the plate, at SP, and at 2B. This FURTHER underscores the need to address everyday players and SPs, first.

But they do play as much. You are just looking at in a traditional sense. A hitter with a full season will at most have 600 plate appearances. If they average 4 pitches per plate appearance that 2400 pitches they effect in a season. A starting pitcher if the have 30 starts and average 100 pitches, have an effect on 3000 pitches in a season. 

So they may have a greater effect on more plays in a season. RPs obviously not as much but they have a greater impact as they  pitch in higher leverage situations more often.

Plus as I said good pitching beats good hitting more often than not.

You need to think out of the box more and not so traditionally.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 minutes ago, hi8is said:

So… what’s a “big contract” that we could be looking at for Kimbrel?

I might have to go all the way back to my proposed Cano trade ?

[HakunaMachado]

15 minutes ago, hi8is said:

I wouldn’t think of 1 year for 16m as a big contract myself… took it as us trading him for a big contract.

That’s how I heard it as well…

[Balta1701]

31 minutes ago, ptatc said:

It's a valid way to look at it. I just disagree.  Good pitching will beat good hitting more often than not.

Plus with a team that has a good offense already I will pick to reinforce the weakness for a more balanced team.

While RPs pitch fewer innings I'll say that they can be more important innings

As far as hitters versus pitchers, hitter se may 30 pitches if they take a lot of pitches in a games while each individual pitcher throws more than that.

So if this team needed to address its weaknesses, what’s the deal with the defense?

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

5 minutes ago, fathom said:

He absolutely doesn’t want that role

Just playing devils advocate here. I’d rather take my chances with Kimbrel than have Jerry keep that money.