Offseason Part 3 - Because Part 2 Was a Dud

[flavum]

I fucking can’t stand Petriello so I’m not going to read whatever he’s saying, but if Robert starts 150 games this year, he’s a top-5 MVP for sure. I have no doubt about that. He just needs to stay on the field and not be another Buxton.

[poppysox]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Who are these potential contributors you are referring to?

Burger, Adolfo, and whoever we get for Kimbrel.  If Adolfo isn't on the roster we lose him in all probability.  Burger has several ways to be useful as well.  Kimbrel makes too much money for us to have a knot in the stomach whenever he is on the mound IMO.

[Chicago White Sox]

22 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Burger, Adolfo, and whoever we get for Kimbrel.  If Adolfo isn't on the roster we lose him in all probability.  Burger has several ways to be useful as well.  Kimbrel makes too much money for us to have a knot in the stomach whenever he is on the mound IMO.

Kimbrel’s spot on the roster is going to a reliever if traded.  And regardless, Adolfo has zero business  being on a major league roster right now and should get zero playing time for a team with championship ambitions.  As for Burger, I don’t see any path towards playing time as currently constructed.  He’s better off getting regular at-bats in AAA and serving as depth in the event of injury (assuming he isn’t traded in the next couple weeks).

[poppysox]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Kimbrel’s spot on the roster is going to a reliever if traded.  And regardless, Adolfo has zero business  being on a major league roster right now and should get zero playing time for a team with championship ambitions.  As for Burger, I don’t see any path towards playing time as currently constructed.  He’s better off getting regular at-bats in AAA and serving as depth in the event of injury (assuming he isn’t traded in the next couple weeks).

Well, that would be fine if the FO has other plans.  My plan is not to have $16M tied up in Kimbrel.  Burger may well be used to acquire an SP.  Adolfo may or may not have worn out his welcome.  My feeling is that Burger will be traded or used at the ML level.  That's why they are called opinions.

[Balta1701]

39 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So you just made a crazy generalization based off one abnormal postseason?

Or the 2020 Dodgers who started Gonsolin twice in the World Series and won basically on a bullpen game? Oh wait that doesn’t count either. The pert where Anibal Sanchez and Joe Ross started in the World Series for the 2019 Nats? I’m sure there’s some reason that doesn’t count. The multiple outings including a big extra innings performance by Nathan Eovaldi in 2018? The two starts in the 2017 World Series by McCullers for a team that picked up Verlander a month beforehand?

Tell you what, find me a recent World Series team that won or even got there with their top 4 starters from the regular season all there for the playoffs. You’re ridiculing me so you ought to be able to do this with no problem. Go to town. 

[Tnetennba]

Let's be real, they need both RF and a starter.  But they have more bodies to passably fill RF than they do to fill the innings void from the back half of the rotation.  Refusing to address RF and LH power already makes the offseason an F for me, but refusing to address the rotation makes it all the worse.

[The Beast]

2 hours ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Without adding a RF or legit 2B option I can’t give them any higher than a C. It’s been a bad offseason. Plus we have no idea what they will have to give up to get Manaea. We might hate it. He is a rental after all.

They did have a rental last year and gave him a contract extension. Anything is possible.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Or the 2020 Dodgers who started Gonsolin twice in the World Series and won basically on a bullpen game? Oh wait that doesn’t count either. The pert where Anibal Sanchez and Joe Ross started in the World Series for the 2019 Nats? I’m sure there’s some reason that doesn’t count. The multiple outings including a big extra innings performance by Nathan Eovaldi in 2018? The two starts in the 2017 World Series by McCullers for a team that picked up Verlander a month beforehand?

Tell you what, find me a recent World Series team that won or even got there with their top 4 starters from the regular season all there for the playoffs. You’re ridiculing me so you ought to be able to do this with no problem. Go to town. 

That's kinda what I am saying is that you can win playoff games with less than ideal starting pitchers... Hence why I'd prefer a guy who will play every day in those games.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

That's kinda what I am saying is that you can win playoff games with less than ideal starting pitchers... Hence why I'd prefer a guy who will play every day in those games.

As long as you’re up for Lopez and Keuchel being key guys.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

12 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Let's be real, they need both RF and a starter.  But they have more bodies to passably fill RF than they do to fill the innings void from the back half of the rotation.  Refusing to address RF and LH power already makes the offseason an F for me, but refusing to address the rotation makes it all the worse.

They literally haven't addressed a single issue coming into the offseason except the middle of the bullpen.

Improved Backup Catcher - NO

Improved Rightfielder - NO

Improved 2B - NO

Improved rotation - NO

Improved bullpen depth - YES

Trade Kimbrel - NO

I am unsure how anyone would call this anything other than an F.

[Tnetennba]

 

[Tnetennba]

6 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

They literally haven't addressed a single issue coming into the offseason except the middle of the bullpen.

Improved Backup Catcher - NO

Improved Rightfielder - NO

Improved 2B - NO

Improved rotation - NO

Improved bullpen depth - YES

Trade Kimbrel - NO

I am unsure how anyone would call this anything other than an F.

Seeing it all spelled out like this is a bit startling.  Clear as day they failed and or refused to address their biggest needs.

[poppysox]

9 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

They literally haven't addressed a single issue coming into the offseason except the middle of the bullpen.

Improved Backup Catcher - NO

Improved Rightfielder - NO

Improved 2B - NO

Improved rotation - NO

Improved bullpen depth - YES

Trade Kimbrel - NO

I am unsure how anyone would call this anything other than an F.

I can't disagree with the point you are making but the off-season isn't over yet.  Some of those NO's will be YES's shortly I hope.  You know the old saying..." a watched pot never boils"

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I can't disagree with the point you are making but the off-season isn't over yet.  Some of those NO's will be YES's shortly I hope.  You know the old saying..." a watched pot never boils"

Ok folks taking bets on the date that this switches from “the offseason isn’t over yet” to “we will solve this at the trade deadline”. June 1 - before or later?

[Chicago White Sox]

32 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Or the 2020 Dodgers who started Gonsolin twice in the World Series and won basically on a bullpen game? Oh wait that doesn’t count either. The pert where Anibal Sanchez and Joe Ross started in the World Series for the 2019 Nats? I’m sure there’s some reason that doesn’t count. The multiple outings including a big extra innings performance by Nathan Eovaldi in 2018? The two starts in the 2017 World Series by McCullers for a team that picked up Verlander a month beforehand?

Tell you what, find me a recent World Series team that won or even got there with their top 4 starters from the regular season all there for the playoffs. You’re ridiculing me so you ought to be able to do this with no problem. Go to town. 

I’ve never once claimed that a team’s top four starters are all that will be needed come October.  In fact, I’ve argued all offseason we need an additional starter because we need to plan for one of our big three being injured.  But under no circumstance do I believe that “your 5th & 6th starters decide the playoffs”.  That assumes 40% of your regular starters will be injured cone October (which I’m not buying) and ignores the contributions of all the other players on your roster.  IMO, teams with serious World Series ambitions should be five strong so they can cover for one guy being out in the postseason.

Also, in regards to your examples, Anibal Sanchez & Joe Ross were the National’s #4 & #5 starters heading into the playoffs and Ross started a single game in the 2019 post season.  As for Gonsolin, he was one of six regular starters on a very unique Dodgers’ club.  And I wouldn’t be overreacting to things that occurred during the 2020 & 2021 seasons as they were both heavily impacted by COVID.  Having decent starting pitching depth beyond your top five is obviously important for the regular season, but no team outside the Dodgers is going to have more than five quality post season starters.

[poppysox]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok folks taking bets on the date that this switches from “the offseason isn’t over yet” to “we will solve this at the trade deadline”. June 1 - before or later?

Balta...this sounds negative to me even though I am sure that wasn't your intent.

[Chicago White Sox]

46 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Let's be real, they need both RF and a starter.  But they have more bodies to passably fill RF than they do to fill the innings void from the back half of the rotation.  Refusing to address RF and LH power already makes the offseason an F for me, but refusing to address the rotation makes it all the worse.

I agree that we needed both a left-handed power bat and another SP.  Those are equally important from my perspective.  That being said, I could have lived with Vaughn in RF until the trade deadline if they added an impact player or left-handed bat at 2B (not ideal but tolerable).  Unfortunately they went dirt cheap at 2B with a redundant RH player instead, which leaves RF as the only spot to add much needed power / lineup balance.

And if I had to wager, there are several reasons why they feel compelled to go with internal options in RF & DH despite having a need for left handed hitting (a need that Hahn called out in his end of season presser).  First, I think they are scared to add a big multi-year deal to the offense when the payroll is already close to the CBT threshold and will require them to find spots to insert young players in the near future.  And given most of our near major league ready prospects are 1B/DH types (Vaughn, Sheets, Burger) or OFs (Cespedes, Colas),  they are probably even more hesitant to add a long-term commitment at RF or DH.  I also think they may be reacting to what they’ve seen out of Colas so far.  Keith Law just had a write-up on him and gave a pretty glowing endorsement.  It’s possible the Sox feel he will move fast and they don’t want to block him.

All that being said, I still don’t think any of that excuses Hahn from failing to to add any left-handed hitting or improving the offense in any meaningful way.  And it certainly doesn’t excuse Hahn from spending wildly on the bullpen and not adding a much needed starter.  I get you can’t completely ignore the future, but you also can’t completely take your foot off the gas pedal during your competitive window.  Hopefully Hahn can still find a way to add Manaea or a similar starter before opening day, because what’s transpired has been very disappointing.

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I agree that we needed both a left-handed power bat and another SP.  Those are equally important from my perspective.  That being said, I could have lived with Vaughn in RF until the trade deadline if they added an impact player or left-handed bat at 2B (not ideal but tolerable).  Unfortunately they went dirt cheap at 2B with a redundant RH player instead, which leaves RF as the only spot to add much needed power / lineup balance.

And if I had to wager, there are several reasons why they feel compelled to go with internal options in RF & DH despite having a need for left handed hitting (a need that Hahn called out in his end of season presser).  First, I think they are scared to add a big multi-year deal to the offense when the payroll is already close to the CBT threshold and will require them to find spots to insert young players in the near future.  And given most of our near major league ready prospects are 1B/DH types (Vaughn, Sheets, Burger) or OFs (Cespedes, Colas),  they are probably even more hesitant to add a long-term commitment at RF or DH.  I also think they may be reacting to what they’ve seen out of Colas so far.  Keith Law just had a write-up on him and gave a pretty glowing endorsement.  It’s possible the Sox feel he will move fast and they don’t want to block him.

All that being said, I still don’t think any of that excuses Hahn from failing to to add any left-handed hitting or improving the offense in any meaningful way.  And it certainly doesn’t excuse Hahn from spending wildly on the bullpen and not adding a much needed starter.  I get you can’t completely ignore the future, but you also can’t completely take your foot off the gas pedal during your competitive window.  Hopefully Hahn can still find a way to add Manaea or a similar starter before opening day, because what’s transpired has been very disappointing.

They need both, and in all reality haven't addressed either.  I'm certainly trying to rationalize their thinking, but I still see it for what it is, a failure/refusal to address their biggest weaknesses against better competition.  Us rationalizing doesn't excuse their failings.

[Tnetennba]

59 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Ok folks taking bets on the date that this switches from “the offseason isn’t over yet” to “we will solve this at the trade deadline”. June 1 - before or later?

No interest in guessing a date, but I expect that very thing here shortly.  

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

They need both, and in all reality haven't addressed either.  I'm certainly trying to rationalize their thinking, but I still see it for what it is, a failure/refusal to address their biggest weaknesses against better competition.  Us rationalizing doesn't excuse their failings.

100% agree

[SoCalChiSox]

As to RF, Keith Law had some good things to say about Colas. He's been watching backfields games and said Colas is doing well in High A games with plus power and arm. Could be a fast riser. He also liked Ramos alot.

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, SoCalChiSox said:

As to RF, Keith Law had some good things to say about Colas. He's been watching backfields games and said Colas is doing well in High A games with plus power and arm. Could be a fast riser. He also liked Ramos alot.

Yeah, good stuff on both of them.  That being said, even if you’re high on Colas, no way he factors into the 2022 season in any meaningful way.

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, SoCalChiSox said:

As to RF, Keith Law had some good things to say about Colas. He's been watching backfields games and said Colas is doing well in High A games with plus power and arm. Could be a fast riser. He also liked Ramos alot.

A glowing endorsement is great, and we all hope the sky is the limit for Colas and or Cespedes, but that doesn't excuse not addressing the position at the major league level.  Especially for a division winner with supposed championship asperations.

[SoCalChiSox]

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Yeah, good stuff on both of them.  That being said, even if you’re high on Colas, no way he factors into the 2022 season in any meaningful way.

Ofcourse, prolly early 2023 if he keeps developing once they secure the extra year.

[SoCalChiSox]

15 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

A glowing endorsement is great, and we all hope the sky is the limit for Colas and or Cespedes, but that doesn't excuse not addressing the position at the major league level.  Especially for a division winner with supposed championship asperations.

I agree.....at the very least they should have gotten a 1 yr LHH bridge player with power like Joc. It was only 6m. And that was the bare minimum to address the need but they still stepped on their own dick and couldn't even do that.

Fucking pathetic