Offseason Part 3 - Because Part 2 Was a Dud

[KBX]

18 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

The page had to turn the corner on Cesar.  He wasn't an option.  Not only did his defense disappoint significantly with the Sox, he clearly didn't fit in and the guy looked miserable and uninterested.  They had to try someone else. I can't believe people have been routinely supporting bringing back Cesar Hernandez since Harrison signed.  The guy is a fucking bump on a log.  I would have preferred nearly any of the other 4-5 legitimate 2B options. 

Hernandez is one of those guys where empirical, tangible reality is sometimes ignored in favor of alienated metrics. Leury was much more of an asset than Hernandez in October. Even if you change that big HR to a gapper, it's still true. Make no mistake I'm not happy about 2B but Hernandez is garbage.

Edited March 18, 2022 by KBX

[chw42]

 

The shoulder thing probably explains why Engel struggled at the plate in the 2nd half of the season. 

First half Engel was surprisingly good last year. 

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, KBX said:

Hernandez is one of those guys where empirical, tangible reality are sometimes ignored in favor of alienated metrics. Leury was much more of an asset than Hernandez in October. Even if you change that big HR to a gapper, it's still true. Make no mistake I'm not happy about 2B but Hernandez is garbage.

Hernandez was so bad with the Sox, I don't care what his metrics say. I'd happily take a player who's cherry picked stats may say he's slightly worse than Cesar just to try something else. They tried Cesar.  He was fucking awful and they rightfully cut his ass instead of paying him $6M.  The people that are bitching about it would be bitching about picking up the option or resigning him for less. It is what it is.  Guy sucks and I am glad he's not on the roster.  Again - I feel like i've had to say it hundred times - this isn't a defense of Harrison or signing him.  I am completely underwhelmed by that move.  But assuming they do the right thing in RF, its whatever. I personally never expected anything but a stopgap player at 2B.

Edited March 18, 2022 by ChiSox59
clarified

[Polar Bear]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I really struggle with the notion you don’t sign Conforto because he blocks our young players.  Even if Colas puts himself on the radar this year, you can always open up a spot for him by trading someone.  And there is still a chance (even if small) that Abreu leaves or retires.  Worry about that once Oscar or someone presses the issue.  For now, let’s focus on improving the current roster like most of our competitors are concerned about.

To me its more that Conforto is worth no where near what he will get.  Not even half of that imo. 

[Dick Allen]

10 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

That's fair.  

When they didn't pick up Cesar's option, i didn't think twice about it myself. I figured they would get something bigger and better, yet he's replaced by a 35 year old that has 1 2.0 fWar season since 2014.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Hernandez was so bad with the Sox, I don't care what his metrics say. I'd happily take a player who's stats may say he's slightly better than Cesar just to try something else. They tried Cesar.  He was fucking awful and they rightfully cut his ass instead of paying him $6M.  The people that are bitching about it would be bitching about picking up the option or resigning him for less. It is what it is.  Guy sucks and I am glad he's not on the roster.  Again - I feel like i've had to say it hundred times - this isn't a defense of Harrison or signing him.  I am completely underwhelmed by that move.  But assuming they do the right thing in RF, its whatever. I personally never expected anything but a stopgap player at 2B.

I bitched about trading for Cesar Hernandez; when you were out there talking about his power and needing him with other people on this very board.

I pointed out at the time of the trade that there was a very good possibility based on his production and approach change that Leury Garcia would/could outperform him the rest of the year. People called me crazy then.

Now I'm saying that I'd rather have Cesar Hernandez - someone I never liked and hated trading for - than Josh Harrison because Leury Garcia is even more likely to be better or as good as Harrison as he was for Cesar Hernandez. 

You're acting like I am some Cesar Hernandez fan. I never wanted him. Hated the trade. But it's undeniably much more likely that he outperforms Josh Harrison in 2022 than vice versa. My personal feelings about a guy are entirely irrelevent when evaluating expected outcomes, and front offices should be making decision based on expected outcomes and not some preconceived notion of his body language in the eyes of ChiSox59.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[KBX]

2 minutes ago, chw42 said:

Because if Story doesn't sign long-term, it's hard to tell a franchise player like Anderson or Bogaerts to move positions for a guy who's gonna be there short-term. 

 

2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Unless TA pulls a Michael Young and volunteers to move, that ain’t going to happen.

I never thought he was an option here. Too pricey and potentially risky due to his home/away splits. It's a good comparison because we know TA and probably haven't seen Story play. The FA market seems pretty bad for a lot of guys, so I think Story either has to prove himself outside of Denver on a 1 year deal or take 2B in a place like Boston. 

[bmags]

Engel Engel Engel, you beautiful, fragile adonis.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

When they didn't pick up Cesar's option, i didn't think twice about it myself. I figured they would get something bigger and better, yet he's replaced by a 35 year old that has 1 2.0 fWar season since 2014.

What 2B would you have selected?  The FA market wasn't exactly flush with good options. 

[daggins]

5 minutes ago, chw42 said:

 

The shoulder thing probably explains why Engel struggled at the plate in the 2nd half of the season. 

First half Engel was surprisingly good last year. 

Wow, that's pretty bad.

Kinda of makes it even more imperative to pick up another outfield, right? Unless they think Leury can hold it down all season.

[MiddleCoastBias]

22 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

And iff it's all about defense, Hernandez is a better defender than Harrision, and he was deemed not good enough by the White Sox front office.

They obviously got caught with their pants down on this one. Either they thought they could get a guy like Story cheap and move him to2B or teams would be giving away players, whatever it was, it was a huge error at a time they need to be accurate.

I feel like this is the same thing that happens every year. The 'smartest guys in the room' think they're going to outsmart everyone else and grab their off-season target on a steal of a deal, and then they have no contingency plan when they realize there are other smart people that are willing to offer more money for those same players.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

50 minutes ago, Tony said:

Is that on Rodon, or the coaching staff? It's not like that was a secret going into the season. Additionally, with your background, you are one of the guys always talking about work loads, and increasing them in smaller increments. He pitched 135 IP last season (with the playoffs) in a "contract year" and was the best Rodon we've seen with the Sox. If he came back on a one year deal, he would still be pitching in a contract year, and who's to say he can't build off of that 135 and stretch it to 160 IP? He's hit the 160 IP mark before in his career. 

And yes, if Rodon would be brought back, he would be replacing Keuchel in the rotation. It would be Giolito-Lynn-Cease-Rodon-Kopech. Those would be your Top 5 starters. With Rodon not in the fold, Kopech gets bumped up, and Keuchel is currently back in the rotation. 

Another point I have brought up several times is that the Sox didn't handle his workload very well. That falls on a lot of different folks. Health staff, biomechanics, TLR and Katz and ultimately the front office.

In this day and age of starters going less innings  how do they justify pitching Rodon 6 or more innings in 10 of his 1st 18 starts ? He was basically coming off 2 years of very little pitching. He should have been pitching 5 innings max, which is hopefully how they handle Kopech now, to preserve his arm for a playoff run.

[Capn12]

Engel can't survive a full season, and really, should be the 5th OFer in terms of what expectations should be.

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

What 2B would you have selected?  The FA market wasn't exactly flush with good options. 

Obviously Escobar. I ...just don't get how they deked themselves this badly here. 

[ChiSox59]

10 minutes ago, bmags said:

Obviously Escobar. I ...just don't get how they deked themselves this badly here. 

That's fair.  I would have taken him too.   Problem is, he hasn't been an option since November. IIRC, Sox were in on him. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by ChiSox59

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Another point I have brought up several times is that the Sox didn't handle his workload very well. That falls on a lot of different folks. Health staff, biomechanics, TLR and Katz and ultimately the front office.

In this day and age of starters going less innings  how do they justify pitching Rodon 6 or more innings in 10 of his 1st 18 starts ? He was basically coming off 2 years of very little pitching. He should have been pitching 5 innings max, which is hopefully how they handle Kopech now, to preserve his arm for a playoff run.

Althoguh he won't be ramped up for 5 innings in his first start...does anyone actually think they will handle Kopech like that?

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

Engel can't survive a full season, and really, should be the 5th OFer in terms of what expectations should be.

Isn't that our situation though? Realistically Leury can slide over to CF, and we have our big boys role playing as corner outfielders as well.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, daggins said:

Wow, that's pretty bad.

Kinda of makes it even more imperative to pick up another outfield, right? Unless they think Leury can hold it down all season.

One nice thing is that Harrison, Leury,  and Romy can all cover some of the OF spots if/when Engel is unavailable. But yes, for the season - they ought to at least have someone competent at AAA, and they don't really have that right now.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

6 minutes ago, daggins said:

Wow, that's pretty bad.

Kinda of makes it even more imperative to pick up another outfield, right? Unless they think Leury can hold it down all season.

Or do we have any other 1B that can play the OF?

[Capn12]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Isn't that our situation though? Realistically Leury can slide over to CF, and we have our big boys role playing as corner outfielders as well.

It is the reality, yeah. But I think a lot of folks, occasionally myself included, had hoped for Engel to really grab a more prominent role. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem to be possible.

[bmags]

Just now, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Or do we have any other 1B that can play the OF?

Buddy, we haven't even broken the glass to pull out our Jake Burger

[bmags]

Just now, Capn12 said:

It is the reality, yeah. But I think a lot of folks, occasionally myself included, had hoped for Engel to really grab a more prominent role. Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem to be possible.

I mean, I also am that. I still am excited that it all works out for a period and he at the very least is a guy that always plays vs. Lefties. He's so damn talented as an athlete, and come so far, I just hope he gets a little bit of runway in his career.

[ShoeLessRob]

Engel is made of glass. 

[chitownsportsfan]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

Buddy, we haven't even broken the glass to pull out our Jake Burger

This has the potential to be a legendary Soxtalk meme.

[ptatc]

19 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Your passive aggressiveness is similar to my wifes. 

Josh Harrison hasn't had a better/more productive season than Cesar Hernandez since 2015. Harrison is also 3 years older than him. In what world is that me knowing best? 

It's stating data based on actual outcomes that Josh Harrison is not as good of a player as Cesar Hernandez. 

that doesn't mean he would be a good fit on the team. This isn't fantasy baseball where these are human beings. There is obviously something other than numbers that the Sox didn't like. Maybe TA didn't like his turn at 2B and was uncomfortable with him returning. There are a multitude of reason why an player doesn't come back to a team. 

There is no doubt Hernandez was the better player by stats. Doesn't mean there isn't a good reason they didn't want him back. We will never know the real reason.