Offseason Part 3 - Because Part 2 Was a Dud

[Tnetennba]

46 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I really think the Sox leadership group finds the fanbase contemptible. 

 

This could be said in the late 80s, and during the strike, and the white flag trade, and early 2010s.  This really isn't new.  They have their way and don't much care about making the fanbase happy.  And probably isn't unique to the White Sox org.

[Sarava]

3 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

We got swept in a 4 game series in Houston then won the homes series 2-1. Including the playoffs we were 3-8 against them and we’re outscored 66-43. A fluke is when they won a bunch of games by 1 or 2 runs, but that wasn’t the case here.

But yes, thinking the playoffs was a fluke is an incredibly lazy take and could help some feel better about a complacent offseason. 

The Sox have won 2 out of 7 playoff games the past 2 seasons ,and have for the most part looked lousy in most of them. How can anyone wrap that as anything but bad?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Other than naming James specifically - I think Look at Ray Run is 100% right. We do see this same pattern every flipping year. Whether leaks come from insiders on this board, Bob Nightengale, Steve Stone, Not Steve Cishek...who really cares. But we do see the same pattern every year. We get teased and raise our expectations for players that will be signed, and it usually doesn't happen.

Maybe it's a case of us Sox fans being at fault for believing things that weren't ever going to happen. But one thing Rich Hahn and Jerry Reinsdorf should understand is this. Just about all of us don't give a flying fuck about having a seat at the table. That gets us nowhere. We still have a giant hole in right field and a subpar starting second basemen. We don't care what failed offers went out to Machado, Harper, Wheeler, Conforto, Semien, whoever. You either sign the guy or you failed.

And to clarify, I simply named James because he leaked the most recent offer yesterday and insinuated it was a competitive offer; I joked at the time that the White Sox off-season cycle is now complete as soon as Conforto goes somewhere else. Given that Conforto turned down 110 million or whatever it was 16 months ago, obviously the White Sox reported opening offer wasn't competitive regardless of how much someone may thought Conforto hurt his value last year.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Dick Allen]

If the White Sox bullpen doesn’t perform like KCs in the mid 2010s, considering how much they have spent on it, RH and KW should resign, admitting the game has passed them by.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Yes, that was my point, in alluding to the Colorado thin air. I would think that the more difficult adjustment would be for players who are used to normal air, when they have to breath in the thinner air. I doubt that it's much of an issue, in a sport like baseball, which really doesn't tax the respiratory system. I always thought that the only real significant issue was that the ball carries further in Colorado and pitchers can't be as effective throwing breaking pitches. Both being advantages to the hitters. Am I missing something? 

The reason hitting in Colorado is easier actually has to do with their being so much more square footage in the outfield. The ball carrying further can often be negated by the far fences, but there's so much more real estate to drop the ball in which leads to higher BABIPs, averages and more doubles, singles and triples. 

The difficulty for playing in COlorado as your home park is that balls break differently there (less). You are practicing and playing half your games there so your eyes and body get more used to that break. This means when you travel, the movement on pitches becomes more difficult to adjust to which is why you see even more stark home/road splits. As players move out of Colorado permantly they adjust again to the break and movement of the pitches which is why they may be better hitters in Colorado but it's not as signficant as you'll see by viewing their Home/Road splits when they're in Colorado. 

[Tnetennba]

22 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I’m very careful and cautious with the information that I share. I have a vetting process that doesn’t need to be explained to strangers on here though. If I shared everything I hear, I’d look like a complete moron. I’ll stand by my track record with what I share. The assumption that my information came from the White Sox and then I ran to share it to appease the fan base is absurd and wrong. I’m a nobody. The White Sox aren’t sharing info with me. I don’t think Conforto is asking for too much money. The league apparently does however. I’m not trying to make anyone feel better either. If this is the off-season, it’s a failure to allocate available resources properly. I’ve said that. I need to see what else happens though. 

I think its safe to say the majority of us greatly appreciate the info you do share, and the fact that you are very careful and vet / verify the info.

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, Sarava said:

The Sox have won 2 out of 7 playoff games the past 2 seasons ,and have for the most part looked lousy in most of them. How can anyone wrap that as anything but bad?

The Sox have only won a playoff series in 1 of the last 105 years.

[GreatScott82]

I think it’s time for an “Offseason part 4” thread. Because part 3 sucks just as bad as part 2.

[Rey21]

10 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Other than naming James specifically - I think Look at Ray Run is 100% right. We do see this same pattern every flipping year. Whether leaks come from insiders on this board, Bob Nightengale, Steve Stone, Not Steve Cishek...who really cares. But we do see the same pattern every year. We get teased and raise our expectations for players that will be signed, and it usually doesn't happen.

Maybe it's a case of us Sox fans being at fault for believing things that weren't ever going to happen. But one thing Rich Hahn and Jerry Reinsdorf should understand is this. Just about all of us don't give a flying fuck about having a seat at the table. That gets us nowhere. We still have a giant hole in right field and a subpar starting second basemen. We don't care what failed offers went out to Machado, Harper, Wheeler, Conforto, Semien, whoever. You either sign the guy or you failed.

Think that their thoughts on the fan base won’t ever change until Jerry is no longer the owner and Hahn/KW are gone. Rick Hahn is still the same dude who publicly called out fans for calling the organization out for their lack of spending. He doesn’t seem to take criticisms from fans. 

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Rey21 said:

Think that their thoughts on the fan base won’t ever change until Jerry is no longer the owner and Hahn/KW are gone. Rick Hahn is still the same dude who publicly called out fans for calling the organization out for their lack of spending. He doesn’t seem to take criticisms from fans. 

It goes back to thinking the fanbase is contemptible. 

They think we're all a bunch of mouth breathing Neanderthals. 

[bmags]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If the White Sox bullpen doesn’t perform like KCs in the mid 2010s, considering how much they have spent on it, RH and KW should resign, admitting the game has passed them by.

We do seem to be in the late paxson cycle of bad drafting and poor team design that they only seem to double down on.

But maybe we’ll get lucky with some pitchers again and Adam Engel staying healthy. Who know

[poppysox]

22 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

1. Who/when did I say that was your intent? 
2. How could you possibly be certain about a White Sox offer if the information didn't initially leak from within the White Sox somehow? Even if it came down to you through another source, that would actually justify what I laid out even more.
3. Everyone who signs late in an off-season isn't "asking for too much money." 

Either way, no idea why you got so offended in the first place. 

My guess would be he doesn't like that pal thing you like to use.

[T R U]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The Sox have only won a playoff series in 1 of the last 105 years.

This is just absolutely pathetic

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, GreatScott82 said:

I think it’s time for an “Offseason part 4” thread. Because part 3 sucks just as bad as part 2.

Maybe we should stop. It's turning out like most movies, each sequel sucks even more.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

It goes back to thinking the fanbase is contemptible. 

They think we're all a bunch of mouth breathing Neanderthals. 

Not all alumni are like that, but that's fairly typical of those who go to Northwestern, Michigan and particularly Harvard Law School.  The sarcastic joke about the Tatis trade is the most we're going to get out of him in terms of self-reflection. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

19 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

And to clarify, I simply named James because he leaked the most recent offer yesterday and insinuated it was a competitive offer; I joked at the time that the White Sox off-season cycle is now complete as soon as Conforto goes somewhere else. Given that Conforto turned down 110 million or whatever it was 16 months ago, obviously the White Sox reported opening offer wasn't competitive regardless of how much someone may thought Conforto hurt his value last year.

I disagree. 4 years at $18 million per or so is definitely reasonable. Lets see what he gets and I'll admit I'm wrong if it's higher. 

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, poppysox said:

My guess would be he doesn't like that pal thing you like to use.

It's deliberately meant to elicit an emotional reaction and get one off their game.  Internet banter.  Can't take it all that seriously.

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Not all alumni are like that, but that's fairly typical of those who go to Northwestern, Michigan and particularly Harvard Law School.  The sarcastic joke about the Tatis trade is the most we're going to get out of him in terms of self-reflection. 

I'm fine if the Sox are cheap, but at least operate like Tampa and Oakland then. Pour all of your money into scouting and analytics and keep the payroll down, trade players with 2 years left of team control, etc. 

If they're not going to do that, then quit half-assing being a big market team. Pick a fucking lane already. 

I think the Sox huge mistake is that they don't put enough emphasis on scouting and player development. They need to spend more there, and it would pay off. I know it's not a Jerry thing, but he's completely fucking over the team by not doing that. 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[Y2Jimmy0]

31 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

1. Who/when did I say that was your intent? 
2. How could you possibly be certain about a White Sox offer if the information didn't initially leak from within the White Sox somehow? Even if it came down to you through another source, that would actually justify what I laid out even more.
3. Everyone who signs late in an off-season isn't "asking for too much money." 

Either way, no idea why you got so offended in the first place. 

I've said since the beginning of the off-season that Michael Conforto should've accepted the QO due to his 2021 season. His market cratered because of the QO being attached and other factors. I'm offended because you're insinuating that I'm an idiot and passing along information that isn't true. Calling me a mouthpiece is implying that I just regurgitate what I'm told without vetting it. It couldn't be further from the truth. 

[caulfield12]

Red Sox Story   done deal.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I've said since the beginning of the off-season that Michael Conforto should've accepted the QO due to his 2021 season. His market cratered because of the QO being attached and other factors. I'm offended because you're insinuating that I'm an idiot and passing along information that isn't true. Calling me a mouthpiece is implying that I just regurgitate what I'm told without vetting it. It couldn't be further from the truth. 

Again, I never said the information wasn't true. Never said you didn't vet information. 

It's literally impossible for you to know the reason for why said contract you posted was leaked to anyone in order for it to make its way to you. I have my opinions as to why these values have been leaked and made their way to journalists with some White Sox affiliation (however direct or indrect), and you have your opinions. Neither of us can speak authoritatively as to the purpose of that contract making it's way to someone like you, but we can both speculate and agree to disagree as to that purpose. Based on the way most off-seasons have gone over the past 4 years, I like to think the outcomes tend to agree with what I believe but most people look for confirmation bias to support their opinions so who knows how right or wrong those thoughts are.

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I disagree. 4 years at $18 million per or so is definitely reasonable. Lets see what he gets and I'll admit I'm wrong if it's higher. 

Wouldn't surprise me if the numbers you mentioned is what he signs for, but Boras will want opt outs. 

[quickman]

3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Wouldn't surprise me if the numbers you mentioned is what he signs for, but Boras will want opt outs. 

I think the Sox would

agree to opt outs. If they believe in colas and their payroll is expected to be higher to keep their own they would love opt outs. Sounds good to me opt out all you want.  

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I'm fine if the Sox are cheap, but at least operate like Tampa and Oakland then. Pour all of your money into scouting and analytics and keep the payroll down, trade players with 2 years left of team control, etc. 

If they're not going to do that, then quit half-assing being a big market team. Pick a fucking lane already. 

I think the Sox huge mistake is that they don't put enough emphasis on scouting and player development. They need to spend more there, and it would pay off. I know it's not a Jerry thing, but he's completely fucking over the team by not doing that. 

 

 

Agree 100%.  Try something different, we watched the Indians for years make the most out of nothing.  Brewers.  Rays.  Heck, even the Royals and Twins.  It's not like we don't have plenty of templates for alternative approaches.

I still don't understand why we have completely given up on the Pacific Rim in terms of scouting.

[The Beast]

1 hour ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

You cannot possibly be serious about this.

Without the point about the poster, please tell all of us how Ray was wrong.

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

I think they run the team by what they think is best not by fan reaction. 

What they think is best has led to underwhelming results while the rest of the league has made the moves necessary to compete instead of bargain bin shopping (The “I can’t spend $1.00 when I only have $0.50” argument.)

1 hour ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Also, take away all their wins and they were winless in those other games 

Please read the actual analysis and understand why things are being said rather than just dismissing it.

50 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I’m very careful and cautious with the information that I share. I have a vetting process that doesn’t need to be explained to strangers on here though. If I shared everything I hear, I’d look like a complete moron. I’ll stand by my track record with what I share. The assumption that my information came from the White Sox and then I ran to share it to appease the fan base is absurd and wrong. I’m a nobody. The White Sox aren’t sharing info with me. I don’t think Conforto is asking for too much money. The league apparently does however. I’m not trying to make anyone feel better either. If this is the off-season, it’s a failure to allocate available resources properly. I’ve said that. I need to see what else happens though. 

What I’m trying to understand is where posters learned you have information. Not because there’s no validity to it, but I never understood if you were tied to the organization, to people close to the talks or if your job somehow had gave you ties to the organization (like a reporter). I guess I’ll have to watch for the tweet next time and figure out the background. The same could be said for anyone else with a connection, like Chisoxfn’s friend who is close to MLB sources. That said, I can appreciate the information.