Offseason Part 3 - Because Part 2 Was a Dud

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

Morning coffee and snap decisions.
Kimbrel to Philly for Logan O'Hoppe + a Class A LH.

or Kimbrel to Oakland for Shea Langeliers + something.
Eat some salary either way.
Issue settled. Nothing else to see here. Move along.

You’re not getting a Top 50-60 prospect in baseball even if you ate all Kimbrel’s salary.  Why would OAK possibly need him?

Just to turn around and try to flip him again, leverage his upside?

Teams in the position of OAK always want to be acquiring prospects.

If we (the Sox) had added someone like Kimbrel from 2017-2018, most would have thought it was all a bit crazy…

[maxjusttyped]

48 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

Morning coffee and snap decisions.
Kimbrel to Philly for Logan O'Hoppe + a Class A LH.

or Kimbrel to Oakland for Shea Langeliers + something.
Eat some salary either way.
Issue settled. Nothing else to see here. Move along.

If Kimbrel was getting traded for Langeliers (interesting idea) it would have already happened. Rosenthal reported the Braves & Sox talked about a Kimbrel trade before they signed Jansen.

[Chicago White Sox]

50 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

Morning coffee and snap decisions.
Kimbrel to Philly for Logan O'Hoppe + a Class A LH.

or Kimbrel to Oakland for Shea Langeliers + something.
Eat some salary either way.
Issue settled. Nothing else to see here. Move along.

Why is a rebuilding team trading for Kimbrel?

[FoxForce2]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You’re not getting a Top 50-60 prospect in baseball even if you ate all Kimbrel’s salary.  Why would OAK possibly need him?

Just to turn around and try to flip him again, leverage his upside?

Teams in the position of OAK always want to be acquiring prospects.

If we (the Sox) had added someone like Kimbrel from 2017-2018, most would have thought it was all a bit crazy…

Pitcher's park is one factor. If The A's are going to do anything in '22 it will be due to their pitching. Kimbrel may be a box of chocolates, but if he's good he would be a steady influence on their staff. And yes, if it goes downhill, flipping him in-season would likely yield 1-2 quality prospects. Considering  Soderstrom's upside, Langeliers is near-surplus in the A's system. OK, make it Kimbrel/Burger for Langeliers and a warmer body.
The Sox need a #2 catcher. They need to move Kimbrel. And maybe most importantly, they need to quit hanging fire on this roster.

[caulfield12]

Just now, FoxForce2 said:

Pitcher's park is one factor. If The A's are going to do anything in '22 it will be due to their pitching. Kimbrel may be a box of chocolates, but if he's good he would be a steady influence on their staff. And yes, if it goes downhill, flipping him in-season would likely yield 1-2 quality prospects. Considering  Soderstrom's upside, Langeliers is near-surplus in the A's system. OK, make it Kimbrel/Burger for Langeliers and a warmer body.
The Sox need a #2 catcher. They need to move Kimbrel. And maybe most importantly, they need to quit hanging fire on this roster.

They’re DOA.

Montas and/or Manaea gone sooner or later.  Laureano, too.

 

They might be able to finish ahead of the Rangers…but doubtful.

Astros, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, A’s

[FoxForce2]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They’re DOA.

Montas and/or Manaea gone sooner or later.  Laureano, too.

 

They might be able to finish ahead of the Rangers…but doubtful.

Astros, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, A’s

OK, so what do you think is impossible about the O'Hoppe deal? I sure didn't see Correa ---> Twins move coming and these moves aren't apples and oranges. If nothing else the A's are well established as an innovative trader (who gets over on the Sox on a regular basis.) It's certainly not a likely move, but not entirely out of the question, especially if Manaea/Montas were to stay put.

Edited March 21, 2022 by FoxForce2

[ScootsMcGoots]

1 hour ago, bighurt574 said:

I sort of doubt that’s a big issue, especially for a 4-5 year deal when hopefully the politics of it will long be forgotten by the end of it anyway (knock on wood, I sure hope we’re not having the same pandemic debates in 4-5 years).  

I thought the White Sox have a requirement that everyone on the 40 man be vaccinated? Or am I wrong on that?

[ChiSox59]

Just now, ScooterMcGee said:

I thought the White Sox have a requirement that everyone on the 40 man be vaccinated? Or am I wrong on that?

Believe  it’s minor leaguers only. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

OK, so what do you think is impossible about the O'Hoppe deal? I sure didn't see Correa ---> Twins move coming and these moves aren't apples and oranges. If nothing else the A's are well established as an innovative trader (who gets over on the Sox on a regular basis.) It's certainly not a likely move, but not entirely out of the question, especially if Manaea/Montas were to stay put.

I really doubt they are considering a rookie catcher as back-up…if they are, it would more than likely be Carlos Perez, who is a personal favorite of TLR’s.

[Tnetennba]

7 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

I agree with you, but I'm still holding out hope for a quality OF addition anyways.

I wish all of the position player injuries from last season were a wake up call to Hahn & KW that expecting all of the core position players to stay healthy for ~150 games isn't a realistic plan. I understand wanting to let Vaughn & Sheets develop at the big league level, that makes perfect sense, but all it takes is *one* injury at `1B/RF/LF/DH and all of a sudden those guys are thrust back into every day roles.

An addition like Conforto or Meadows wouldn't just make the RF position stronger, it also would add more depth to the roster overall and reduce the number of PA's we'd end up seeing this year from replacement level types like Goodwin, Billy Hamilton, Lamb, Yermin, etc

While I still want Conforto and think they’ve played this dumb again, I agree 100% with what you are saying here.  They still need a quality RF addition even if it’s not a perfect fit like Conforto. 

[Quin]

4 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Believe  it’s minor leaguers only. 

Yup. They can't mandate the major league team due to the MLBPA. But the logic with requiring the entire organization (outside Graveman to our knowledge) + minors is that they'll have less concern about outbreaks while calling people up to and from teams.

[Perfect Vision]

All offseason I think the Sox FO has assumed they were going to cruise to another division title, and they'd make another move at the deadline like they did last year to shore up what they see as their biggest need.  In that vein, I'm glad that the Twins signed Correa and have reportedly been heavily involved in trying to acquire one of the A's starters.  Hopefully a bigger perceived threat to the division will motivate the Sox FO to act now to improve the team rather than wait 4 months into the season.

[FoxForce2]

22 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I really doubt they are considering a rookie catcher as back-up…if they are, it would more than likely be Carlos Perez, who is a personal favorite of TLR’s.

They sure passed up on a decent crop of experienced FA #2 catchers. It will be at least interesting when Grandal goes on a 30-day DL, likely due to knee/hamstring issues resulting from overwork behind the plate. O'Hoppe is well regarded around the league as a MLB ready defensive catcher. Yes, i realize Langeliers is at least something of a pipedream. Perez is a work in progress. Is Collins progressing behind the plate at all?
My point - as best I can tell, the FO feels little sense of urgency in moving Kimbrel and filling perceived and demonstrable needs in the field and in the lineup. JR has a record of delaying moves counting on discounts and bargains the longer deals are stretched out. My original post was at least half tongue in cheek. but still criticizing the Sox for hanging fire on a Kimbrel move. I don't think they're going to get a lot in the way of experienced MLB help for him. Bad contract-for-bad contract maybe... I say move him and get it over with. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by FoxForce2

[bmags]

I think the Correa deal is illustrative for why the white sox will not sign conforto or any big free agent (esp. one with Boras).

Reinsdorf does not believe players have any power or right to create their market value. Teams decide it, and if teams decide they are X, that is their value.

So they ignored Machado's desire to be a $300M player. They would never entertain with Harper ways to get him to the largest deal ever. And with a Correa, I could never see the sox nudging a deal to a player's desire, like adding an additional $100k to make him highest paid infielder on an AAV basis.

There is something that Conforto believes about himself and the deal he should get, and if the white sox are even interested, they will lecture Conforto about supply and demand or some shit. And another team will take it seriously and find a way to get the player what he wants, even narratively, that still makes the team comfortable. 

For the Phillies, Padres that was more years. For the Twins, it was less years. 

But the sox can only sign a free agent if that guy happens to be of the same mind of his value and the white sox value. Meanwhile, the white sox will be smugly and loudly declaring their interest so we get all of these leaks, but they will be false because the white sox are delusional and worse at judging the market than every...and I mean every... other participant in the market.

[ChiSox59]

39 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

While I still want Conforto and think they’ve played this dumb again, I agree 100% with what you are saying here.  They still need a quality RF addition even if it’s not a perfect fit like Conforto. 

Problem with rolling with no further OF additions is we're relying on the OFs to stay healthy when 3 of them have shown they struggle with that to varying degrees.  Sox are pretty much fucked as soon as Eloy gets hurt.  When Eloy and Engel are both hurt, they're royally fucked.  Questionable decision making at its finest. I really cannot fathom that Hahn's thought process on RF and lineup balance has completely changed since the fall.  He's just playing chicken with Conforto, likely because JR won't let him add on that 5th year, and to this point, Conforto/Boras are holding out for it.  We know the Sox are interested - the guy with consistently the best info that actually uses his name has said they've made him an offer than frankly is probably the best he's received this offseason or he'd be signed elsewhere.  

Edited March 21, 2022 by ChiSox59

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think the Correa deal is illustrative for why the white sox will not sign conforto or any big free agent (esp. one with Boras).

Reinsdorf does not believe players have any power or right to create their market value. Teams decide it, and if teams decide they are X, that is their value.

So they ignored Machado's desire to be a $300M player. They would never entertain with Harper ways to get him to the largest deal ever. And with a Correa, I could never see the sox nudging a deal to a player's desire, like adding an additional $100k to make him highest paid infielder on an AAV basis.

There is something that Conforto believes about himself and the deal he should get, and if the white sox are even interested, they will lecture Conforto about supply and demand or some shit. And another team will take it seriously and find a way to get the player what he wants, even narratively, that still makes the team comfortable. 

For the Phillies, Padres that was more years. For the Twins, it was less years. 

But the sox can only sign a free agent if that guy happens to be of the same mind of his value and the white sox value. Meanwhile, the white sox will be smugly and loudly declaring their interest so we get all of these leaks, but they will be false because the white sox are delusional and worse at judging the market than every...and I mean every... other participant in the market.

They might be better than the Pirates, Orioles and D-Backs (although we supposedly made a run at Bumgarner, too.)  Rockies, too.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Problem with rolling with no further OF additions is we're relying on the OFs to stay healthy with 3 of them have shown they struggle with that to varying degrees.  Sox are pretty much fucked as soon as Eloy gets hurt.  When Eloy and Engel are both hurt, they're royally fucked.  Questionable decision making at its finest. I really cannot fathom that Hahn's thought process on RF and lineup balance has completely changed since the fall.  He's just playing chicken with Conforto, likely because JR won't let him add on that 4th year.  We know they're interested - the guy with consistently the best info that actually uses his name has said so.  And it makes all the sense in the world.

So what to do?  Join Ron’s idle threats of deserting the Sox for the Northsiders?  Ask for an alert that will tell us to return to the board or Sox baseball in general after a Kimbrel trade is consummated? 

[Tnetennba]

35 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Problem with rolling with no further OF additions is we're relying on the OFs to stay healthy with 3 of them have shown they struggle with that to varying degrees.  Sox are pretty much fucked as soon as Eloy gets hurt.  When Eloy and Engel are both hurt, they're royally fucked.  Questionable decision making at its finest. I really cannot fathom that Hahn's thought process on RF and lineup balance has completely changed since the fall.  He's just playing chicken with Conforto, likely because JR won't let him add on that 4th year.  We know they're interested - the guy with consistently the best info that actually uses his name has said so.  And it makes all the sense in the world.

We saw how thin the OF depth was all of last season, and have they done anything to address that?  No one in AAA/AA is any closer and the AAAA guys are all gone.  One major injury and we are right back to scrap heap pick-ups starting large chunks of games for a so called title contender.  

Edited March 21, 2022 by Tnetennba

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

So what to do?  Join Ron’s idle threats of deserting the Sox for the Northsiders?  Ask for an alert that will tell us to return to the board or Sox baseball in general after a Kimbrel trade is consummated? 

Rend our garments and shake our collective fists at the sky!

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

So what to do?  Join Ron’s idle threats of deserting the Sox for the Northsiders?  Ask for an alert that will tell us to return to the board or Sox baseball in general after a Kimbrel trade is consummated? 

What to do?  I dunno.  Watch Opening Day and about 90% of the other game this season because I am a die hard Sox fan and we have hands down one of the best 2-3 rosters in my 31 years on this earth?  I think that is what I will do.  

[FoxForce2]

3 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Rend our garments and shake our collective fists at the sky!

Wailing and gnashing of teeth. Any dentists here?

[bmags]

The other thing that will always, and forever, drive me nuts, is the idea of "X team spent $400 million this offseason".  It's team PR.

Every team should have the assumption that they will have payroll over the next ten years. They will also have some revenue projections for each year. Some of the revenue will be fixed, like certain media deals.

These contracts just become fixed portions of your future payroll. They didn't pay a player $250 million. They allocated portions of their future budgets just to that player. And they need to figure out the rest. Every thing about following this sports finances makes it seem like some lump some. For sure if they sign a whole bunch of future talent, that may feasibly raise the forecasts as they need a minimum number of players, etc etc. But they can also trade out these contracts.

It's all very stupid. And it's the owners driving the stupidity because they want credit.

[Quin]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

What to do?  I dunno.  Watch Opening Day and about 90% of the other game this season because I am a die hard Sox fan and we have hands down one of the best 2-3 rosters in my 31 years on this earth?  I think that is what I will do.  

Everyone knows that you're either all the way in or all the way out!

Life is the hokey pokey!

[bmags]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They might be better than the Pirates, Orioles and D-Backs (although we supposedly made a run at Bumgarner, too.)  Rockies, too.

I don't even know what this means but I disagree on the premise. The Dbacks signed greinke to a huge deal. And the pirates are better because they don't fool themselves into being confident that offering a deal way below what a marquee player desires makes them front runners.

[hogan873]

I think the fact that the Sox haven't (and probably won't) sign Conforto to fill the known gap in RF is more frustrating than the production we'll get out of RF will be.  There's a chance that a combination of Engel, Sheets, Vaughn, and Leury can give us decent production and overall average to slightly below average defense.  If the Sox sign Conforto, we know who will be playing RF almost every day.  If they don't, who the hell knows.  It will be RF by committee, and the results will be spotty.  Add to that, we'll have guys like Vaughn and Sheets who will be playing out of their natural positions, not really helping with their development.

I've pretty much resigned myself to seeing the RF by committee, and we might be okay offensively, especially if some other guys perform well.  It's just frustrating that there's a solution out there, and if he signs somewhere else, I don't see his contract being outrageous enough for us to say, "Good thing we didn't sign him."  Maybe he chooses another team for other reasons like Wheeler did.  Maybe it's his vax status holding things up.  Or maybe the Sox end up looking like the team that had the best opportunity to improve and failed to do so.