Offseason Part 3 - Because Part 2 Was a Dud

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

7 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

I wonder if they are going to go with Vaughn and Sheets in RF, and have Adolfo be a backup as he is out of options 

Hahn should be fired. Yes, fired. Two first basemen and a DH with zero experience in RF on a team with championship expectations. Pitiful.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Ray and Winkler is shit?

Best lefty bat on the market and a top of the rotation arm. I'd take it as a Sox fan. Obviously I'd rather have the White Sox whole roster though. Mariners pitching depth is just... real real bad.

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm sorry I meant Jason Heyward...8 years $184 million for one WAR a year.  That was a killer.   

Yup. Except…they won the World Series with him, and they also signed a big contract for Jon Lester and a lesser contract for Zobrist. They don’t win a title if they pass on all big contracts.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said:

This is a lot of straw man arguments. No one is suggesting that the Sox should push all in for short term gains. No one is suggesting that good bullpens aren’t important, we ARE suggesting that top bullpens very rarely seem like they’ll be top bullpens going into the season, and so blowing resources trying to build one (particularly when ignoring bigger needs) is a clearly bad strategy. No one is suggesting anything remotely close to trading for a Dexter Fowler bad contract, lmao. No one ever thought the Edwin Jackson contract was a good idea, even for a moment.

This White Sox DID spend a bunch of money, they just didn’t get anything that they needed with it. 

”Conforto over Vaughn/Engel does NOT put us in a ‘much better position to win’” is a bizarre statement. I’d love to hear you support that.

It’s a dogshit offseason, man. It doesn’t make you a bad fan to admit that, and admitting it doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to root for the team still. 

EVERYONE is suggesting we push all in for short term gains. 

Nothing is "Clearly" a bad strategy until it doesn't work.  Two of the smartest teams in baseball, Brewers and Rays, have emphasized relief pitching.  It seems like the game is going in that direction.  Hahn is just throwing money at what he thinks is a market inefficiency.  Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.  But again...top six relief staffs by fWar last year won an average of 95 games.  Replacing worst two arms with better pitchers is not idiotic.   

Thanks Balta reminded me of Jason Heyward.  Gold Glove right fielder, left handed hitter, in his twenties, 8 years $184 million contract...what could go wrong?  

OK define "much better position to win"?   I think Vaughn is going to put up an .830 OPS this year.  I think Engel will cover 30% of the innings with GG caliber outfield play.  I think they will cost $20 million a year less than Conforto.  I think there is a near term and long term risk to giving Conforto a big contract (see above).  

It has been a dull off season.  The original comment was regarding people that said they couldn't get excited about THIS team.  

 

 

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

16 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm sorry I meant Jason Heyward...8 years $184 million for one WAR a year.  That was a killer.   

Is your argument let’s never sign expensive free agents because there is some chance they don’t work out?

[SoCalChiSox]

43 minutes ago, fathom said:

Supposedly Levine was on the radio today saying Sox aren’t going after another RF.  

Negotiation tactic

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

EVERYONE is suggesting we push all in for short term gains. 

Nothing is "Clearly" a bad strategy until it doesn't work.  Two of the smartest teams in baseball, Brewers and Rays, have emphasized relief pitching.  It seems like the game is going in that direction.  Hahn is just throwing money at what he thinks is a market inefficiency.  Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.  But again...top six relief staffs by fWar last year won an average of 95 games.  Replacing worst two arms with better pitchers is not idiotic.   

Thanks Balta reminded me of Jason Heyward.  Gold Glove right fielder, left handed hitter, in his twenties, 8 years $184 million contract...what could go wrong?  

OK define "much better position to win"?   I think Vaughn is going to put up an .830 OPS this year.  I think Engel will cover 30% of the innings with GG caliber outfield play.  I think they will cost $20 million a year less than Conforto.  I think there is a near term and long term risk to giving Conforto a big contract (see above).  

It has been a dull off season.  The original comment was regarding people that said they couldn't get excited about THIS team.  

 

 

 

 

This is absolutely hilarious.  You think Hahn is pursuing relief pitching because he thinks it’s a market inefficiency?  ???.  At least we finally found Rick Hahn’s Soxtalk account.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Negotiation tactic

100% agree.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Is your argument let’s never sign expensive free agents because there is some chance they don’t work out?

No my argument is it is not a disaster to NOT sign a free agent because they are not a panacea.   We have signed free agents...Grandal, Keuchel, Hendricks...but I'd rather they resign Gio in 18 months than sign Conforto.  

 

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

EVERYONE is suggesting we push all in for short term gains. 

Nothing is "Clearly" a bad strategy until it doesn't work.  Two of the smartest teams in baseball, Brewers and Rays, have emphasized relief pitching.  It seems like the game is going in that direction.  Hahn is just throwing money at what he thinks is a market inefficiency.  Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.  But again...top six relief staffs by fWar last year won an average of 95 games.  Replacing worst two arms with better pitchers is not idiotic.   

Thanks Balta reminded me of Jason Heyward.  Gold Glove right fielder, left handed hitter, in his twenties, 8 years $184 million contract...what could go wrong?  

OK define "much better position to win"?   I think Vaughn is going to put up an .830 OPS this year.  I think Engel will cover 30% of the innings with GG caliber outfield play.  I think they will cost $20 million a year less than Conforto.  I think there is a near term and long term risk to giving Conforto a big contract (see above).  

It has been a dull off season.  The original comment was regarding people that said they couldn't get excited about THIS team.  

 

 

 

 

Again, reading comprehension is a skill, and one you seem to be lacking. 

The comment from OP was "I was more excited about the team heading into last year than I am this year." 

That doesn't mean OP isn't excited about this season, it means they were more excited in 2021. If they were at a 10 in 2021 and an 8 in 2022, that doesn't mean they "aren't excited about THIS team" 

I don't understand why this is so difficult for you. 

[Tony]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

No my argument is it is not a disaster to NOT sign a free agent because they are not a panacea.   We have signed free agents...Grandal, Keuchel, Hendricks...but I'd rather they resign Gio in 18 months than sign Conforto.  

 

Do you know what's stopping the Sox from doing both? 

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. 

[Jose Abreu]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

100% agree.

I don't get it. Scott Boras is eagerly tuning into 670 The Score and punching air when he hears Levine say the Sox aren't looking to upgrade in RF?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

EVERYONE is suggesting we push all in for short term gains. 

Nothing is "Clearly" a bad strategy until it doesn't work.  Two of the smartest teams in baseball, Brewers and Rays, have emphasized relief pitching.  It seems like the game is going in that direction.  Hahn is just throwing money at what he thinks is a market inefficiency.  Maybe it will work, maybe it won't.  But again...top six relief staffs by fWar last year won an average of 95 games.  Replacing worst two arms with better pitchers is not idiotic.   

Thanks Balta reminded me of Jason Heyward.  Gold Glove right fielder, left handed hitter, in his twenties, 8 years $184 million contract...what could go wrong?  

OK define "much better position to win"?   I think Vaughn is going to put up an .830 OPS this year.  I think Engel will cover 30% of the innings with GG caliber outfield play.  I think they will cost $20 million a year less than Conforto.  I think there is a near term and long term risk to giving Conforto a big contract (see above).  

It has been a dull off season.  The original comment was regarding people that said they couldn't get excited about THIS team.  

 

 

 

 

Lay out your top 6 bullpens for 2022 now, before the season starts.

I'll lay out my top 6 offenses and top 6 starting rotations. 

I'd be willing to bet that I get more from both groups than you get from yours.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

I don't get it. Scott Boras is eagerly tuning into 670 The Score and punching air when he hears Levine say the Sox aren't looking to upgrade in RF?

Thank you!  

[Tony]

Just now, Jose Abreu said:

I don't get it. Scott Boras is eagerly tuning into 670 The Score and punching air when he hears Levine say the Sox aren't looking to upgrade in RF?

Yeah, I tend to agree with you on this one. I don't totally buy the negotiation tactic defense, especially in this case. 

If the Sox are actually engaged with Boras on Conforto, they're talking an Boras knows where the Sox are currently at. One side picks up the phone when something changes. But they don't need Bruce Levine sending messages on the radio to communicate their position. 

[Jerksticks]

5 minutes ago, Tony said:

Again, reading comprehension is a skill, and one you seem to be lacking. 

The comment from OP was "I was more excited about the team heading into last year than I am this year." 

That doesn't mean OP isn't excited about this season, it means they were more excited in 2021. If they were at a 10 in 2021 and an 8 in 2022, that doesn't mean they "aren't excited about THIS team" 

I don't understand why this is so difficult for you. 

Oh stop it.  This thread is sign Conforto or everything is a failure 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

No my argument is it is not a disaster to NOT sign a free agent because they are not a panacea.   We have signed free agents...Grandal, Keuchel, Hendricks...but I'd rather they resign Gio in 18 months than sign Conforto.  

 

Then you better hope Jerry isn’t the owner by then, because no way he gives Giolito the contract you’re hoping for.

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Ray and Winkler is shit?

We'll see. The problem is they weren't a 90 win team on paper last year, closer to 82 and they needed to do more to just run in place imo. They lost Seager's 2.8fWAR, rotation lost Kikuchi, who gave them 160 crumulent innings if not much else. Flexen is coming off a career year, probably a fluke.  I'd think Ray will makeup for the regression there but that just leaves them again, about where they were.

You can't count on Kyle Lewis for anything this year imo, and we'll see how their OF defense looks with Winkler, Kelenic and Haniger. On paper that has the potential to be a straight beer league OF. Not going to help their pitching at all.

[michelangelosmonkey]

 Wow getting the full soxtalk treatment...mockery, insults, attacks.  Go enjoy your hatred.   I'm going to go watch the game...no room for me on Soxtalk  

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 Wow getting the full soxtalk treatment...mockery, insults, attacks.  Go enjoy your hatred.   I'm going to go watch the game...no room for me on Soxtalk  

Listen I'm as prone to it as anybody else but this sort of attitude is stupid. Here's a quote that keeps rattling around in my brain these days:

Quote

You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.” Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

 

[Tony]

4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

 Wow getting the full soxtalk treatment...mockery, insults, attacks.  Go enjoy your hatred.   I'm going to go watch the game...no room for me on Soxtalk  

[Chicago White Sox]

4 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I don't get it. Scott Boras is eagerly tuning into 670 The Score and punching air when he hears Levine say the Sox aren't looking to upgrade in RF?

Agents and front offices both negotiate through the media all the time.  Are you actually suggesting otherwise?  Whether it’s an effective strategy is an entirely different debate.

And no, I don’t think Hahn leaked something to Bruce to specifically go on air today to get Scott Boras to pump his fist in the air.  I think the Sox want it to appear throughout all media outlets that they are content with Andrew Vaughn as their primary RF and don’t need an expensive, multi-year upgrade.  It’s really that simple.

Also, I find it somewhat amusing that half the board now believes we are out on Conforto because fathom found two random accounts on Twitter that claim they have inside access to payroll budget.  I love fathom and perhaps he’s ultimately right here, but right now this seems like Charles the Cat all over again with the Cubs signing Bryce Harper.

[35thstreetswarm]

24 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm not sure how the Sox could make a huge move at the deadline unless a couple players in their system take huge steps forward. That's a gamble in its own sense.

I also think it's a bit of homer shaded glasses to say they have the best roster in the AL. They have the 4th most projected WAR in the league right now and by a couple outlets the 5th best projected record and they're in the weakest division. It doesn't mean they can't be the best team in the AL, but it does mean their on-paper roster isn't the best in the eyes of a lot of projection systems and models, so it'll take more "if's" for them to reach that ceiling compared to others.

I'm all for huge steps forward, but I'm not sure why they couldn't, for example, make a big trade for a starter with assets as we know them now.

I don't put too much stock in projections, particularly for teams like the Sox with young, ascendant core players.  I remember you making this same argument last offseason in support of projections that had the Sox at 83 wins and 3rd place in the Central.

[caulfield12]

37 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

The biggest problem they have is on paper their rotation is pretty bad.  They really need to hope every guy out performs his projection. I get signing Ray but without more help feels like it will hold them back. Offensively we'll see what Saurez and Toro can do. They have a lot of guys coming off career years or absolute shit (Kelenic), that could be awesome for them or could be a big blow if many of them regress without improvement from the younger guys. We'll see what happens it's an intriguing ass roster I'll give them that.

What is Paxton's status?

[caulfield12]

39 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

This is a lot of straw man arguments. No one is suggesting that the Sox should push all in for short term gains. No one is suggesting that good bullpens aren’t important, we ARE suggesting that top bullpens very rarely seem like they’ll be top bullpens going into the season, and so blowing resources trying to build one (particularly when ignoring bigger needs) is a clearly bad strategy. No one is suggesting anything remotely close to trading for a Dexter Fowler bad contract, lmao. No one ever thought the Edwin Jackson contract was a good idea, even for a moment.

This White Sox DID spend a bunch of money, they just didn’t get anything that they needed with it. 

”Conforto over Vaughn/Engel does NOT put us in a ‘much better position to win’” is a bizarre statement. I’d love to hear you support that.

It’s a dogshit offseason, man. It doesn’t make you a bad fan to admit that, and admitting it doesn’t mean you aren’t allowed to root for the team still. 

Darvish, Chatwood and Kimbrel not performing to expectations didn't help much either.