Score the Offseason!

[caulfield12]

30 minutes ago, bmags said:

I have no problem saying McGuire is interchangeable offensively too. Collins was useless in the second half and Zevala had a miracle game but is a nothing. 
 

This guy is an actual strong late game replacement. But long term I’m still pro Perez. My belief is the Sox don’t know how to scout catchers and he’s better than they are grading him.

How do you explain Narvaez and McCann...those would rank in the Top 5-6 of a generation of Hahn finds.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

How do you explain Narvaez and McCann...those would rank in the Top 5-6 of a generation of Hahn finds.

They traded Narvaez. Would love to to find the threads gloating post seattle after people tried to throw back my arguments that a catcher as offensively gifted as Narvaez, under control cheaply, should have the sox doing everything possible to make him defensively adequate. Now he is, is a top 10 catcher. Way more valuable than a reliever who was getting paid his market. Oh well, I'd be a great GM and you are all worse off for me being just an incredible message board admin.

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, bmags said:

They traded Narvaez. Would love to to find the threads gloating post seattle after people tried to throw back my arguments that a catcher as offensively gifted as Narvaez, under control cheaply, should have the sox doing everything possible to make him defensively adequate. Now he is, is a top 10 catcher. Way more valuable than a reliever who was getting paid his market. Oh well, I'd be a great GM and you are all worse off for me being just an incredible message board admin.

Balta was obviously one.

We were already comparing with Semien at that point.

(Better not get too confident...one of the mods is due for the IL too with the way this last week or so has unfolded.)

[VAfan]

There is a lot of hindsight being played out here. 

I think not keeping Rodon was the biggest mistake, as they wouldn't need Velasquez, and could cover for the Lynn injury. And even if Lynn had been healthy, they could have rolled with a 6 man rotation with Lopez still in reserve.

As for the rest, they flipped Kimbrel for Pollock, who would have been the 3rd best hitter on the team last year.  He hits righties and lefties equally well.

Graveman and Kelly were essential adds to the pen. 

McGuire is a much better bench catcher.

Harrison is a league average 2B.  Garcia covers everywhere in a pinch. 

But they also didn't do a lot of stupid things that have been suggested here. Like trading Sheets or Vaughn, or signing Conforto, or blowing up the salary structure by signing 32 year old Semien to a 7 year deal.

The team is better on offense, potentially by a lot. Most of that is returning guys being healthy. But it is still better.  The bullpen, even without Crochet, could be better. Will depend on how well the extra guys pitch.

The biggest hit has been to the starting pitching.  That's not good.  It could be bad enough to put us into a division race instead of coasting.

But the team is not final on opening day. Just look at Atlanta last year. Worst regular season record of playoff teams to WS winners.

I would give the team a C+ or B.  Depends on whether they get production out of Velasquez and the bullpen extras.  

 

**************

Also, one thing us fans do is just assume deals can be done, when it may be that they couldn't.  For example, Joc Pederson turned down the Sox' offer last offseason before we signed Adam Eaton. 

Who knows what the A's wanted for Sean Manaea from us.  We might think they got nothing and would could have topped it, but maybe they wanted Colson Montgomery or Wes Kath from us instead of the shortstop they got from San Diego, and a pitcher we shouldn't surrender.  Or maybe they didn't like any offer from us.  We don't have the highest rated farm system.  

Also, the Kimbrel option needed to be exercised before anything else took place.  So do you just jettison him for nothing?  I'm glad they kept him and flipped him for AJ Pollock, who has been a very good hitter the last two years and will lengthen our lineup.   Did that keep us from tendering Rodon?  I doubt it.  

The other thing to consider is that players sometimes don't want to play for the Sox.  Wheeler is a case in point.  We'd be much better with Wheeler than Keuchel, for sure.  But he wouldn't take our money.  Marcus Stroman announced he wouldn't play for Tony LaRussa, so it didn't matter if we wanted him or not.  

It seems like a very easy job when you don't actually have to do it.  Imagine if you had thousands of people looking at the job you do for a living and nitpicking everything you did.  What kind of report card grade would you get?  

Edited April 4, 2022 by VAfan

[A-Train to 35th]

5 hours ago, VAfan said:

There is a lot of hindsight being played out here. 

I think not keeping Rodon was the biggest mistake, as they wouldn't need Velasquez, and could cover for the Lynn injury. And even if Lynn had been healthy, they could have rolled with a 6 man rotation with Lopez still in reserve.

As for the rest, they flipped Kimbrel for Pollock, who would have been the 3rd best hitter on the team last year.  He hits righties and lefties equally well.

Graveman and Kelly were essential adds to the pen. 

McGuire is a much better bench catcher.

Harrison is a league average 2B.  Garcia covers everywhere in a pinch. 

But they also didn't do a lot of stupid things that have been suggested here. Like trading Sheets or Vaughn, or signing Conforto, or blowing up the salary structure by signing 32 year old Semien to a 7 year deal.

The team is better on offense, potentially by a lot. Most of that is returning guys being healthy. But it is still better.  The bullpen, even without Crochet, could be better. Will depend on how well the extra guys pitch.

The biggest hit has been to the starting pitching.  That's not good.  It could be bad enough to put us into a division race instead of coasting.

But the team is not final on opening day. Just look at Atlanta last year. Worst regular season record of playoff teams to WS winners.

I would give the team a C+ or B.  Depends on whether they get production out of Velasquez and the bullpen extras.  

 

**************

Also, one thing us fans do is just assume deals can be done, when it may be that they couldn't.  For example, Joc Pederson turned down the Sox' offer last offseason before we signed Adam Eaton. 

Who knows what the A's wanted for Sean Manaea from us.  We might think they got nothing and would could have topped it, but maybe they wanted Colson Montgomery or Wes Kath from us instead of the shortstop they got from San Diego, and a pitcher we shouldn't surrender.  Or maybe they didn't like any offer from us.  We don't have the highest rated farm system.  

Also, the Kimbrel option needed to be exercised before anything else took place.  So do you just jettison him for nothing?  I'm glad they kept him and flipped him for AJ Pollock, who has been a very good hitter the last two years and will lengthen our lineup.   Did that keep us from tendering Rodon?  I doubt it.  

The other thing to consider is that players sometimes don't want to play for the Sox.  Wheeler is a case in point.  We'd be much better with Wheeler than Keuchel, for sure.  But he wouldn't take our money.  Marcus Stroman announced he wouldn't play for Tony LaRussa, so it didn't matter if we wanted him or not.  

It seems like a very easy job when you don't actually have to do it.  Imagine if you had thousands of people looking at the job you do for a living and nitpicking everything you did.  What kind of report card grade would you get?  

I agree with everything you said.

[ShoeLessRob]

Who da fuk gave an A.

[ChiSox59]

7 hours ago, VAfan said:

There is a lot of hindsight being played out here. 

I think not keeping Rodon was the biggest mistake, as they wouldn't need Velasquez, and could cover for the Lynn injury. And even if Lynn had been healthy, they could have rolled with a 6 man rotation with Lopez still in reserve.

As for the rest, they flipped Kimbrel for Pollock, who would have been the 3rd best hitter on the team last year.  He hits righties and lefties equally well.

Graveman and Kelly were essential adds to the pen. 

McGuire is a much better bench catcher.

Harrison is a league average 2B.  Garcia covers everywhere in a pinch. 

But they also didn't do a lot of stupid things that have been suggested here. Like trading Sheets or Vaughn, or signing Conforto, or blowing up the salary structure by signing 32 year old Semien to a 7 year deal.

The team is better on offense, potentially by a lot. Most of that is returning guys being healthy. But it is still better.  The bullpen, even without Crochet, could be better. Will depend on how well the extra guys pitch.

The biggest hit has been to the starting pitching.  That's not good.  It could be bad enough to put us into a division race instead of coasting.

But the team is not final on opening day. Just look at Atlanta last year. Worst regular season record of playoff teams to WS winners.

I would give the team a C+ or B.  Depends on whether they get production out of Velasquez and the bullpen extras.  

 

**************

Also, one thing us fans do is just assume deals can be done, when it may be that they couldn't.  For example, Joc Pederson turned down the Sox' offer last offseason before we signed Adam Eaton. 

Who knows what the A's wanted for Sean Manaea from us.  We might think they got nothing and would could have topped it, but maybe they wanted Colson Montgomery or Wes Kath from us instead of the shortstop they got from San Diego, and a pitcher we shouldn't surrender.  Or maybe they didn't like any offer from us.  We don't have the highest rated farm system.  

Also, the Kimbrel option needed to be exercised before anything else took place.  So do you just jettison him for nothing?  I'm glad they kept him and flipped him for AJ Pollock, who has been a very good hitter the last two years and will lengthen our lineup.   Did that keep us from tendering Rodon?  I doubt it.  

The other thing to consider is that players sometimes don't want to play for the Sox.  Wheeler is a case in point.  We'd be much better with Wheeler than Keuchel, for sure.  But he wouldn't take our money.  Marcus Stroman announced he wouldn't play for Tony LaRussa, so it didn't matter if we wanted him or not.  

Lost me at signing Conforto would have been a stupid move. Lol quite a take there. 

[CentralChamps21]

My final grade is a B-. The Cueto signing ticked it up from a C+. To get an A, they would have needed to give Rodon the QO, and assuming that he would have rejected it, trade for a SP better than Cueto. I think all the other moves were good. I think Harrison/Leury at 2B is going to be better than everybody expects.

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

My final grade is a B-. The Cueto signing ticked it up from a C+. To get an A, they would have needed to give Rodon the QO, and assuming that he would have rejected it, trade for a SP better than Cueto. I think all the other moves were good. I think Harrison/Leury at 2B is going to be better than everybody expects.

Or simply sign one reliable veteran 4/5 innings eater better than VV and Cueto…

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Still at a D+/C-.  Cueto doesn't and shouldn't move it in any way.

[iWiN4PreP]

F. No other grade is reasonable.

Complete failure.

 

[Quin]

Just now, iWiN4PreP said:

F. No other grade is reasonable.

Complete failure.

 

The fun thing is that this grade was predetermined.

[southsider2k5]

I would score this offseason with the 1812 Overture.

[Lillian]

Given that I subscribe to the old maxim; "pitching wins championships," I can't help but fault the front office for their allocation of funds. I'm assuming that Tony La Russa has been very involved and influential in this process of roster management, and he should know better than to accept such a lack of starting pitching depth. Acquiring a few arms, who could eat some innings shouldn't have been that difficult. More importantly, they needed to replace Rodon, as one of the candidates to fill the role of a potential playoff starter. They entered the season assuming that all four of their Post Season candidates would be healthy and effective. Last year, the Dodgers had a very deep starting staff. Even so, they were really pressed after losing several arms. The old saw; "You can never have too much pitching" should have been their guiding principle, but unfortunately it wasn't and that mistake has already been exposed.

They also knew that they needed a better balanced lineup, yet they did nothing to improve that. Instead they focused on much less important issues. There was no hole at second base. Leury could have played there, with Romy Gonzales getting some opportunities. The best reason that it made any sense to add someone at second, was the potential to use that opening as a place to play a left handed power bat, along with RF, which also was not void of options, albeit all right handed. Therefore, the front office accepted a diminished starting staff , compared to last year and they failed to acquire better lineup balance. 

At this point, they deserve their fate. They did not do what was necessary to maximize their window of contention. If now they are forced to give up someone who could be an impactful part of the future, in order to acquire quality rotation depth, so be it. I suspect that is what will happen, or they will, once again, fail to advance in the Post Season. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Lillian

[CentralChamps21]

22 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I would score this offseason with the 1812 Overture.

The cannons can be timed to Keuchel pitches flying over the outfield wall.

[Quin]

30 minutes ago, Lillian said:

Given that I subscribe to the old maxim; "pitching wins championships," I can't help but fault the front office for their allocation of funds. I'm assuming that La Russa has been very involved and influential in this process of roster management, and he should know better than to accept such a lack of starting pitching depth. Acquiring a few arms, who could eat some innings shouldn't have been that difficult. More importantly, they needed to replace Rodon, as one of the candidates to fill the role of a potential playoff starter. They entered the season assuming that all four of their Post Season candidates would be healthy and effective. Last year, the Dodgers had a very deep starting staff. Even so, they were really pressed after losing several arms. The old saw; "You can never have too much pitching" should have been their guiding principle, but unfortunately it wasn't and that mistake has already been exposed.

They also knew that they needed a better balanced lineup, yet they did nothing to improve that. Instead they focused on much less important issues. There was no hole at second base. Leury could have played there, with Romy Gonzales getting some opportunities. The best reason that it made any sense to add someone, was the potential to use that opening as a place to play a left handed power bat, along with RF, which also was not void of options, albeit all right handed. Therefore, the front office accepted a diminished starting staff , compared to last year and they failed to acquire better lineup balance. 

At this point, they deserve their fate. They did not do what was necessary to maximize their window of contention. If now they are forced to give up someone who could be an impactful part of the future, in order to acquire quality rotation depth, so be it. I suspect that is what will happen, or they will, once again, fail to advance in the Post Season. 

Pollock has an .800 career OPS against RHP. Last year it was .902, Conforto's was .792.

So against RHP they could have:

Anderson
Robert
Moncada (S)
Abreu
Grandal (S)
Eloy
Pollock (Mashes Righties)
Sheets
Leury (S)

A balanced lineup!

 

[Tony]

It's a very boring C.

They had a very good team coming into the offseason. They have a very good team coming into this season as well. 

They made some moves, but nothing to make this team substantially better than it was last year. 

I wanted them to be much more aggressive, and try to maximize their chances at a possible Championship in the next two years. I don't feel like they put in that effort. 

I don't believe they made any moves this offseason that will make the significantly worse than last season, but that's not really something you deserve credit for. That's a pretty low bar to clear. 

I'm excited for the season to start and excited to see this team win a lot of ballgames in 2022. 

I just don't feel like they have put themselves in the best position to win a Championship like they could have, and that's frustrating. 

[ShoeLessRob]

3 hours ago, Tony said:

It's a very boring C.

They had a very good team coming into the offseason. They have a very good team coming into this season as well. 

They made some moves, but nothing to make this team substantially better than it was last year. 

I wanted them to be much more aggressive, and try to maximize their chances at a possible Championship in the next two years. I don't feel like they put in that effort. 

I don't believe they made any moves this offseason that will make the significantly worse than last season, but that's not really something you deserve credit for. That's a pretty low bar to clear. 

I'm excited for the season to start and excited to see this team win a lot of ballgames in 2022. 

I just don't feel like they have put themselves in the best position to win a Championship like they could have, and that's frustrating. 

100% I feel like they took for granted that they will make the playoffs instead of putting together a Championship roster. 

[Lillian]

4 hours ago, Quin said:

Pollock has an .800 career OPS against RHP. Last year it was .902, Conforto's was .792.

So against RHP they could have:

Anderson
Robert
Moncada (S)
Abreu
Grandal (S)
Eloy
Pollock (Mashes Righties)
Sheets
Leury (S)

A balanced lineup!

 

Yes, your point is well taken. Pollock does hit RH pitching well, so that helps.