Crochet having Tommy John surgery Tuesday

[Dick Allen]

If he can't hold up as a reliever, how could he possibly hold up as a starter?

[Two-Gun Pete]

14 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think his injuries were a result of his throwing as well not the way he was handled. Does it really matter where the innings are majors or minors, as far as health is concerned?

I think it's more the max effort and mechanics that are the issues. I'm not sold on the fact that he wouldn't have been trying to throw 98 all the time in the minors like he did in the majors.

When they drafted him, I said he would end up with shoulder issues. He has that same stand up follow through.

WRT young talented pitchers, just "getting guys out" isn't the entirety of development. There's also the need to acquire work ethic, in terms of taking care of one's body and preparation. There is also learning how to avoid injury, WRT his mechanics. Theres also the maturity that comes with having to progress by earning it, rather than by being rushed to the bigs.

With other pitchers, (i.e. Crochet and Kopech) I remember Coop saying that Kopech had to learn that he "doesn't need to throw it 200 mph every time." I think that learning WHEN to throw with max effort matters as well. Did Crochet learn this in his 4 IP in 2020? I dunno.

When a youngster is learning some of these things in, say, Winston-Salem, there isn't as much pressure to "just get guys out," as there is when you've been rushed to the bigs.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I remember in like 2018 or something after a draft where the sox again used a bunch of 4-10 round picks on relievers someone quoted Haber saying they thought this could be the new moneyball.

After a relatively homegrown bullpen in 2020, they've now spent $50 million to build a bullpen and used a top 25 prospect and first round pick to supplement it.

I guess they didn't find the new moneyball

I still would like to know what in the fact Haber does to add value.

[ptatc]

12 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If he can't hold up as a reliever, how could he possibly hold up as a starter?

This is the big question. If it is a UCL and they do a reconstruction, it may hold up. 

[ptatc]

8 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

WRT young talented pitchers, just "getting guys out" isn't the entirety of development. There's also the need to acquire work ethic, in terms of taking care of one's body and preparation. There is also learning how to avoid injury, WRT his mechanics. Theres also the maturity that comes with having to progress by earning it, rather than by being rushed to the bigs.

With other pitchers, (i.e. Crochet and Kopech) I remember Coop saying that Kopech had to learn that he "doesn't need to throw it 200 mph every time." I think that learning WHEN to throw with max effort matters as well. Did Crochet learn this in his 4 IP in 2020? I dunno.

When a youngster is learning some of these things in, say, Winston-Salem, there isn't as much pressure to "just get guys out," as there is when you've been rushed to the bigs.

I don't disagree. This is the way I would do it.

However the opposing opinion is that getting MLB hitters out is also a learning curve and may be a steeper learning curve. So to get them there sooner is better for their development. 

There are pros and cons to each.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

So I think we can all agree that this probably happens even if they keep him in the minors last year as a starter.

However, the big difference for the White Sox is service time. Assuming the obvious, he’ll be out all of 2022 and a good part of 2023, the first time he would be back at full strength is opening day 2024.

Because they rushed him up to the big leagues, this is his second pre-arbitration year, and 2023 will be his final pre-arbitration year. He will be in his first arbitration year the next time we see him completely healthy, and at that point the White Sox will only have 3 years of control left with him. And at that point, he will not have even reached 80 innings in a season. 

Had they kept him in the minors last year and this happened, they would still have 6 years of control of him, and if he got hurt in spring training this year they could have still worked him as a starter in 2024 in the minors if they wanted. 

Damn that was an expensive call up.

I prefer to look at it from the player's perspective. He had the talent to make the team, therefore, he wasn't rushed. He also got a big league salary on top of his signing bonus, so he's made over $5M in his short career. I think he would actually prefer the way it worked out if he was going to get injured no matter what.

This is one I can't call a front office mistake. If you are good enough you should play at the level you belong.

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I don't disagree. This is the way I would do it.

However the opposing opinion is that getting MLB hitters out is also a learning curve and may be a steeper learning curve. So to get them there sooner is better for their development. 

There are pros and cons to each.

Agreed. 

If in fact there was an issue with a pitcher's mechanics, I'd doubt that a single year would have been enough to make whatever changes, and for the changes to stick.

WRT Rodon, we all heard about his work ethic, and saw how he tool care of his body, and the injuries that occurred, even before the shoulder.

WRT Crochet, I don't think there is any way he should NOT have been tried as a SP. I thought it necessary as part of his development, as well as maximizing asset development for the org.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Agreed. 

If in fact there was an issue with a pitcher's mechanics, I'd doubt that a single year would have been enough to make whatever changes, and for the changes to stick.

WRT Rodon, we all heard about his work ethic, and saw how he tool care of his body, and the injuries that occurred, even before the shoulder.

WRT Crochet, I don't think there is any way he should NOT have been tried as a SP. I thought it necessary as part of his development, as well as asset development.

The problem with crochet as a starter was that with COVID restrictions and injuries he only pitched around 13 innings his last year if college. They couldn't give him starter innings. He had to do reliever innings. He was only going to go 50-60 innings no matter where he pitched. So he was either a releiver or make 10 starts spread out throughout a season. Or make 10 starts and shut down for the year. 

No matter how you arranged it or what level, he wasn't going to pitch much.

[Two-Gun Pete]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I prefer to look at it from the player's perspective. He had the talent to make the team, therefore, he wasn't rushed. He also got a big league salary on top of his signing bonus, so he's made over $5M in his short career. I think he would actually prefer the way it worked out if he was going to get injured no matter what.

This is one I can't call a front office mistake. If you are good enough you should play at the level you belong.

Talent alone isn't the sole determinant of success, IMO. 

Yes, its a great deal in terms of success, but so too are some of the other things as well. And there are piles of talented guys who don't make it, or don't endure in the bigs.

Did he learn how to protect his body, or was he eager to see the triple digits on the scoreboard? Did he learn how to prepare for a game/series/season property? 

At the same time, did the org maximize his potential?

I dunno.

[kitekrazy]

23 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

WRT young talented pitchers, just "getting guys out" isn't the entirety of development. There's also the need to acquire work ethic, in terms of taking care of one's body and preparation. There is also learning how to avoid injury, WRT his mechanics. Theres also the maturity that comes with having to progress by earning it, rather than by being rushed to the bigs.

With other pitchers, (i.e. Crochet and Kopech) I remember Coop saying that Kopech had to learn that he "doesn't need to throw it 200 mph every time." I think that learning WHEN to throw with max effort matters as well. Did Crochet learn this in his 4 IP in 2020? I dunno.

When a youngster is learning some of these things in, say, Winston-Salem, there isn't as much pressure to "just get guys out," as there is when you've been rushed to the bigs.

I'm not a fan of Katz.  Many of our pitchers had nice K counts but easily done after 6.   The pen was a mental breakdown and this team surrendered a lot of 8 inning leads.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Talent alone isn't the sole determinant of success, IMO. 

Yes, its a great deal in terms of success, but so too are some of the other things as well. And there are piles of talented guys who don't make it, or don't endure in the bigs.

Did he learn how to protect his body, or was he eager to see the triple digits on the scoreboard? Did he learn how to prepare for a game/series/season property? 

At the same time, did the org maximize his potential?

I dunno.

Unfortunately the triple digits in the scoreboard and trying to strike everyone out is the way stats show everyone should pitch.

Strikeouts are the most effective way to keep runs off the board. This is everyone now and this wouldn't have changed if he spent time in the minors.

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

The problem with crochet as a starter was that with COVID restrictions and injuries he only pitched around 13 innings his last year if college. They couldn't give him starter innings. He had to do reliever innings. He was only going to go 50-60 innings no matter where he pitched. So he was either a releiver or make 10 starts spread out throughout a season. Or make 10 starts and shut down for the year. 

No matter how you arranged it or what level, he wasn't going to pitch much.

In 2021, they could have started with both Kopech and Crochet in MiLB, and recalled them later. They are/were both assets for whom their next 4-6 years mattered as much as just 2021.

As much as I hate the RP signings this offseason, I wanted the SOX to sign RPs last offseason, so that Kopech and Crochet had the time and space to maximize their potentials. In any case, I thought that the difference between our SOX and the rest of the ALC was so great in 2021, that these two weren't desperately needed in Chicago.

Even if Kopech and Crochet didn't pitch much in 2021, I thought we could still make the post season without them; I thought we could then see them really blossom in 22 and beyond.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, kitekrazy said:

I'm not a fan of Katz.  Many of our pitchers had nice K counts but easily done after 6.   The pen was a mental breakdown and this team surrendered a lot of 8 inning leads.

I was not a fan of his last year either. But is was his first year and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It's a tough job this year with more game compressed into a smaller timeframe and a shortened spring training. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

In 2021, they could have started with both Kopech and Crochet in MiLB, and recalled them later. They are/were both assets for whom their next 4-6 years mattered as much as just 2021.

As much as I hate the RP signings this offseason, I wanted the SOX to sign RPs last offseason, so that Kopech and Crochet had the time and space to maximize their potentials. In any case, I thought that the difference between our SOX and the rest of the ALC was so great in 2021, that these two weren't desperately needed in Chicago.

Even if Kopech and Crochet didn't pitch much in 2021, I thought we could still make the post season without them; I thought we could then see them really blossom in 22 and beyond.

That is one way to go. But again with their innings limits its not like they would have been starters in the minors. They would still only have reliever innings limits.

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Unfortunately the triple digits in the scoreboard and trying to strike everyone out is the way stats show everyone should pitch.

Strikeouts are the most effective way to keep runs off the board. This is everyone now and this wouldn't have changed if he spent time in the minors.

 

We don't know that unless they tried it, right? I mean, Burr and Bummer spent time in the SOX MiLB system, but they don't seem to want to go "max effort" all the time.

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That is one way to go. But again with their innings limits its not like they would have been starters in the minors. They would still only have reliever innings limits.

And that would have been fine, IMO.

They could have been further along their ramp up to SP level innings, while preserving contractual control. 

[bmags]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I was not a fan of his last year either. But is was his first year and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

It's a tough job this year with more game compressed into a smaller timeframe and a shortened spring training. 

I don't think those are fair critiques. All of that are things that could be contributed to many of those pitchers going from 40-60 IP in 2020 to 150+ with playoffs. There were changes to the baseball, there were changes to what you were allowed to use with the baseball. And now this year they have the short ramp-up and thin SP.

And yet the stats on the pitching staff both show a top ten unit in bullpen and starting. And they were in front of atrocious defense too so I think that's even more commendable and a reason you should want strikeouts from this group.

[Y2Jimmy0]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Eh, I'm not sure I buy this. They traded college relievers because they have nothing else of mid-level value in their system. And when you are trading those picks for .5 year relievers and then having to pay full market value for relievers how much surplus value are you really generating with this approach? 

They don't have to spend this much $$ on the bullpen. They're just choosing to. They should be doing both. Nobody would care about signing Kelly and Graveman if Conforto was in RF and Manaea was acquired. They didn't finish the job, which is the issue imo. 

[southsider2k5]

50 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If he can't hold up as a reliever, how could he possibly hold up as a starter?

This is where I am at.  He is obviously fragile AF, and pushing him early into higher innings, would have just destroyed him earlier, and still put him behind for getting innings.  If he is hurt, he never builds innings either.  That has been his main problem since we drafted him.

[Balta1701]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

This is where I am at.  He is obviously fragile AF, and pushing him early into higher innings, would have just destroyed him earlier, and still put him behind for getting innings.  If he is hurt, he never builds innings either.  That has been his main problem since we drafted him.

Then deal with the injury before you start his service time clock.

[southsider2k5]

The fun part is everyone is basically insisting that the team should have spent even more on the bullpen.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

It's absolutely criminal how they handled Crochet.  You can't have such a young pitcher throw at max effort under the intensity of a big league game and expect his arm to hold up.  There's a reason why this is never done yet they continue to put their players in difficult situations all because Reinsdorf wants his cheap talent.  This organization will never fucking learn.  They just never fucking learn.

I have no idea what you are talking about ? Criminal ? That's a huge load of hyperbole . His arm wasn't holding up in college . He throws the way he throws and how is the pressure going to hurt his arm ? You think he puts more effort into throwing in the majors or less effort into pitching when he's in the minors ? Would he throw 96-100 up here and  under 96 in the minors ?

This is just a rant because a young player threw his arm out and didn't spend any time in the minors. There's nothing you can say to prove it was the wrong path or bad for his development or that he wouldn't have been injured any way.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

38 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Talent alone isn't the sole determinant of success, IMO. 

Yes, its a great deal in terms of success, but so too are some of the other things as well. And there are piles of talented guys who don't make it, or don't endure in the bigs.

Did he learn how to protect his body, or was he eager to see the triple digits on the scoreboard? Did he learn how to prepare for a game/series/season property? 

At the same time, did the org maximize his potential?

I dunno.

Those are things you can speculate on all day and never know the answers. People here were eager to asee 100 again and sounded disappointed when it didn't happen. Maybe the Sox altered his mechanics or actually got him to dial it back just a tad .  I would think it's pretty difficult just to dial it down without som kind of change in his delivery ,When you throw that hard you can't just say OK I'm going to throw 96-98 now instead of 98-100.

You would like to think that the people who would impart the best wisdom would be at the highest level but that isn't always true. I don't spin my wheels on things I will never know.

[Sleepy Harold]

 

[Tony]

He Gawn 

[KrankinSox]

1 minute ago, Sleepy Harold said:

 

A real bummer, but not at all surprising. I wonder if it would have been the smart move to give him the surgery after 2020 when his forearm was acting up in the playoffs. He'd likely be close to fully rehabbed by now.