Kimbrel traded for AJ Pollock

[Two-Gun Pete]

19 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I don't disagree. However I think your obsession with the fact that the Sox haven't had a RF in 15 years is not that big of a deal. If there were multiple positions where they were lacking talent it would be one thing. But the fact that they have very few weaknesses is a good thing. Strength up the middle is more important than a RF. The fact that they have a really good hitting CF with outstanding defense negates that deficit to an extent. 

In my view, all of these strengths were already in place now, at the beginning of the offseason, at the TDL, and at last offseason.

They've done nothing to improve the weaknesses in the roster, in all of that time. And, there have been two spots where talent and fit have been lacking: RF and 2B. With the loss of Rodon, we can tack on SP as well.

I think it is well within our bounds as fans of this team and as posters here to have two thoughts at the same time:

1. We're excited about the talent that was already in place.

2. We're disappointed in the heuristics that have lead to a TDL and Offseason that have made the team worse.

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, chw42 said:

When you consider that there were rumors of a Kimbrel for Meadows swap where the Sox could have saved more money, your theory has some legs.

It sure wouldn't shock me, thought it sounds like money was a bigger factor for Tampa.

Again now for the official record, 2 of the most universally recognized as genius organizations in MLB, made significant offers for Craig Kimbrel, one of them even closing the deal.

[ptatc]

17 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

In my view, all of these strengths were already in place now, at the beginning of the offseason, at the TDL, and at last offseason.

They've done nothing to improve the weaknesses in the roster, in all of that time. And, there have been two spots where talent and fit have been lacking: RF and 2B. With the loss of Rodon, we can tack on SP as well.

I think it is well within our bounds as fans of this team and as posters here to have two thoughts at the same time:

1. We're excited about the talent that was already in place.

2. We're disappointed in the heuristics that have lead to a TDL and Offseason that have made the team worse.

Of course you can have all of those opinions.  However you also need to look at a few other variables.

1. They are only 20 million they were only 40 million or so from the luxury tax. Most people didn't think their salary thus high let alone go higher.

2. They had a good lineup already but their bullpen was Hendricks, bummer, Crochet and kimbrel (who we all knew was going to be traded for pitching or an RF). That is a weak bullpen. Weaker than the lineup.

3. The starting staff has 3 good dependable pieces giolito, Lynn, Cease. Kopech is talented but they know he is on a limitation. Keuchal, well.

However quality starting pitching us very expensive to acquire and hiw can that fir under the tax 

4. Giolito is going to need a new contract soon. If they spend all the way to the cap where us this money coming from or are they planning on letting him go now.

So giving this secanario. Spending to near the salary tax to add to a lineup that is already good is risky considering the limitations. They decided to add to a  weakness, the bullpen and trade kimbrel for a decent but flawed upgrade in RF.

You could go otherwise but adding to a strength when there are other weaknesses would have been an expensive luxury.

[DirtySox]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It sure wouldn't shock me, thought it sounds like money was a bigger factor for Tampa.

Again now for the official record, 2 of the most universally recognized as genius organizations in MLB, made significant offers for Craig Kimbrel, one of them even closing the deal.

Yup. It sure sounds like money was going to be factor in Rays discussions. From the Athletic piece.

Quote

In Pollock and the Dodgers, the White Sox landed a right-handed hitter who is credibly strong against right-handed pitching (.279/.338/.464 for his career) to counterbalance the past struggles of Engel and Vaughn in that aspect, and a trade partner that dealt for Kimbrel’s $16 million salary straight up. That’s notable since such a figure would have likely complicated the talks that sources say the Sox had this spring with the Rays about left-handed-hitting outfielder Austin Meadows.

https://theathletic.com/3224442/2022/04/01/craig-kimbrel-departs-amid-eventful-day-at-white-sox-camp/

[35thstreetswarm]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

With all due respect, I really hope Suzuki is a massive bust.  One, because I hate the Cubs.  Two, so I never have to read about him again on this site.  Lots of angst for a guy the Sox were never, ever linked to.

Only because certain posters are trying to change the subject after a move that improved the Sox roster immensely and made this offseason a lot better.  We won’t be talking the Suzuki distraction for much longer.

[southsider2k5]

 

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Only because certain posters are trying to change the subject after a move that improved the Sox roster immensely and made this offseason a lot better.  We won’t be talking the Suzuki distraction for much longer.

Yep, instead of admitting fault, this is just running with the goalposts. 

[poppysox]

36 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

In my view, all of these strengths were already in place now, at the beginning of the offseason, at the TDL, and at last offseason.

They've done nothing to improve the weaknesses in the roster, in all of that time. And, there have been two spots where talent and fit have been lacking: RF and 2B. With the loss of Rodon, we can tack on SP as well.

I think it is well within our bounds as fans of this team and as posters here to have two thoughts at the same time:

1. We're excited about the talent that was already in place.

2. We're disappointed in the heuristics that have lead to a TDL and Offseason that have made the team worse.

Depth has been improved by tons.

[DirtySox]

 

[chw42]

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

Pollock was very well liked in LA, he should have no issues fitting in here. 

[Chick Mercedes]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:34 AM, fathom said:

They should like it

https://mobile.twitter.com/chelsea_janes/status/1509928742667239428

[Chick Mercedes]

7 minutes ago, DirtySox said:

 

No doubt, the Sox have made a decent recovery from a problem they had built. If have Craig Kimbrel on your team can ever be classified as a ‘problem’.  Without having to sweeten the deal. Should say what people around the league feel about what Kimbrel has left in the tank.

[chw42]

1 minute ago, Chick Mercedes said:

No doubt, the Sox have made a decent recovery from a problem they had built. If have Craig Kimbrel on your team can ever be classified as a ‘problem’.  Without having to sweeten the deal. Should say what people around the league feel about what Kimbrel has left in the tank.

I'm just glad he's not our problem anymore. The team "misusing" him probably helped hide some of the very real issues he had with us. The lower velocity and poor control were definitely mechanics related and not a complete product of him not closing games. Maybe the Dodgers know how to fix him like the Cubs did, because whatever we did didn't work. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

38 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Of course you can have all of those opinions.

2. They had a good lineup already but their bullpen was Hendricks, bummer, Crochet and kimbrel (who we all knew was going to be traded for pitching or an RF). That is a weak bullpen. Weaker than the lineup.

You could go otherwise but adding to a strength when there are other weaknesses would have been an expensive luxury.

I can agree with much of your post, but WRT the BP, the 2021 SOX were among the league leaders in WAR from the pen, despite that group producing the fewest IP in MLB.

It was not a weak bullpen, by any measure. While it could perhaps have used some depth (as all contending teams do), at no point was closer a point of weakness.

Rather, having the most expensive bullpen in MLB history (with Kimbrel) WAS an expensive luxury. Especially with DHs in the OF, and Harrison or Hernandez as the starting 2B, and Collins as backup to Grandal.

Without Kimbrel, the pen remains an expensive luxury, compared to the obvious holes mentioned above.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Two-Gun Pete]

28 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Depth has been improved by tons.

I can agree with this. 

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I can agree with much of your post, but WRT the BP, the 2021 SOX were among the league leaders in WAR from the pen, despite that group producing the fewest IP in MLB.

It was not a weak bullpen, by any measure. While it could perhaps have used some depth (as all contending teams do), at no point was closer a point of weakness.

Rather, having the most expensive bullpen in MLB history (with Kimbrel) WAS an expensive luxury. Especially with DHs in the OF, and Harrison or Hernandez as the starting 2B, and Collins as backup to Grandal.

Find me other teams with a "perfect" roster. 

I'm been hard on the Sox, but if one of your top 3 complaints with the roster is backup catcher....come on. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I can agree with much of your post, but WRT the BP, the 2021 SOX were among the league leaders in WAR from the pen, despite that group producing the fewest IP in MLB.

It was not a weak bullpen, by any measure. While it could perhaps have used some depth (as all contending teams do), at no point was closer a point of weakness.

Rather, having the most expensive bullpen in MLB history (with Kimbrel) WAS an expensive luxury. Especially with DHs in the OF, and Harrison or Hernandez as the starting 2B, and Collins as backup to Grandal.

Sox blew the 3rd most games in baseball. The quality of a bullpen is driven by results. Sox had some powerful arms but they weren't great as a unit from a sequencing standpoint.

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Tony said:

Find me other teams with a "perfect" roster. 

I'm been hard on the Sox, but if one of your top 3 complaints with the roster is backup catcher....come on. 

Look at the defensive stats at catcher for this team. Yes, some of that was down to Grandal being ouchy last season. But, this has been an under-appreciated issue with this team, when you take a look at where we are compared to our enemies.

As Grandal ages, this can become a bigger issue, IMO.

[Chick Mercedes]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Sox blew the 3rd most games in baseball. The quality of a bullpen is driven by results. Sox had some powerful arms but they weren't great as a unit from a sequencing standpoint.

TLR is supposed to be the guru of relief moves. But I think roles were a little bit undefined on this team. I don’t think a lot of guys could predict their appearance keys. And Kopech and Lopez were wildcards. Kimbrel was in no man’s land. And they were gonna do it  again with Crochet until a minute ago. Lopez is still undefined other than being undefined again.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Chick Mercedes

[Two-Gun Pete]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Sox blew the 3rd most games in baseball. The quality of a bullpen is driven by results. Sox had some powerful arms but they weren't great as a unit from a sequencing standpoint.

Fangraphs has the blown save metric at 15th... Or are you looking at something else?

Holds were 9th-best in MLB, but perhaps some of that was on Kimbrel himself?

Edit: and I can agree that the way the unit was handled, and some of the sequencing was suboptimal as well.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[Tony]

6 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Look at the defensive stats at catcher for this team. Yes, some of that was down to Grandal being ouchy last season. But, this has been an under-appreciated issue with this team, when you take a look at where we are compared to our enemies.

As Grandal ages, this can become a bigger issue, IMO.

That....didn't answer my question. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Tony said:

That....didn't answer my question. 

I didn't see a question mark in your post.

Looking back at your post, the point isn't to wish for a "perfect roster," as per your statement. Its to make use of the offseason to improve the roster where it had holes.

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I didn't see a question mark in your post.

Looking back at your post, the point isn't to wish for a "perfect roster," as per your statement. Its to make use of the offseason to improve the roster where it had holes.

And I believe the Sox at this point has done that to a decent degree, and also aren't done. 

However, by your logic, that would mean every team would have poor offseasons as my original question still stands...find me a perfect roster. 

I'll do the assignment for you and tell you there isn't one. Every team has holes. If backup catcher is one the Sox biggest, I'm very confident in their chances in 2022, as well as being confident they can fill that hole rather cheaply if desired. 

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I knew you'd come up with this.

Key difference:

The SOX have basically needed a RFer since Jermaine Dye lost his mobility. The SOX had zero need for an expensive closer the heartbeat they acquired Hendriks.

 

See? One move would have solved a dire need, while we've already seen the other become an abject failure at conception. One could help the team now and for 4 years beyond that, the other actively hurt this team. 

Well, except Eaton's 2016 and Avi's 2017...

[caulfield12]

54 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Sox blew the 3rd most games in baseball. The quality of a bullpen is driven by results. Sox had some powerful arms but they weren't great as a unit from a sequencing standpoint.

The 8th inning was a problem since the opening series in Anaheim.  The real difference of opinion comes in on whether Kimbrel could shift roles on a dime...