Lance Lynn has slight tendon tear, 4 weeks no throwing off mound

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

26 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You are so right ! Pilkington for 1/2 season of Cesar Hernandez and not willing or able to muster up whatever Oakland wanted for Manaea  which was some pitching and minor league shortstops that are always in demand. The Sox should have learned that lesson when Tatis was traded.

I don't want to root for Pilkington to bomb. I hope he has a great career. Just saying the same guys in charge of rebuilding were the same guys who couldn't get trades for MLB talent right before. Even with the international market they play the older prospects game just like they play the older MLB guys in trades.

I really wish I could see more positives but Collins being traded leaves us with Vaughn, Burger among our 1st round high picks and Sheets who was a 2nd rounder . So the draft has yet to play a huge part in the rebuild.

Carlos Rodon was a big part of last season’s success. The Madrigal trade turned into Pollock ultimately so we’ll see how that turns out. Collins turned into this season’s backup catcher, another former first round pick. Crochet, despite his injury, has had the biggest impact at the MLB level to date than any player from the 2020 draft. Same for AV out of the 2019 draft (which other 2019 draftees even saw MLB action last season)?

The biggest recent draft disappointments to me have been Carson Fulmer and Zack Burdi but that happens. No organization hits 100% on their first round picks.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

If Lynn didn't get hurt, I could see the "may" as being POSSIBLY justifiable. Now with the injury...there's no "may". It needs to happen. 

Also the "at some point " started when the regular season ended despite all the hubbub about RF and 2nd base , starting pitching was always the most serious need along with becoming more left handed.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Carlos Rodon was a big part of last season’s success. The Madrigal trade turned into Pollock ultimately so we’ll see how that turns out. Collins turned into this season’s backup catcher, another former first round pick. Crochet, despite his injury, has had the biggest impact at the MLB level to date than any player from the 2020 draft. Same for AV out of the 2019 draft (which other 2019 draftees even saw MLB action last season)?

The biggest recent draft disappointments to me have been Carson Fulmer and Zack Burdi but that happens. No organization hits 100% on their first round picks.

Rushing players to the major leagues is hardly something to take credit for...the final results of those drafts will take much longer to assess, as high schoolers almost always require 3-5 years of development.

Assuming Burger gets traded at some point, there's lost nothing left to show for all those draft picks other Andrew Vaughn.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Rushing players to the major leagues is hardly something to take credit for...the final results of those drafts will take much longer to assess, as high schoolers almost always require 3-5 years of development.

Assuming Burger gets traded at some point, there's lost nothing left to show for all those draft picks other Andrew Vaughn.

So we’re ignoring the contributions from Carlos last year as well as the players acquired via trade for those picks like Pollock and McGuire? Also, we’re already writing off Crochet? I guess no one has ever successful recovered from TJS.

And you never answered my question about the Cubs terrific drafting during their rebuild. What did they have to show from all those high picks outside of Kris Bryant?

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So we’re ignoring the contributions from Carlos last year as well as the players acquired via trade for those picks like Pollock and McGuire? Also, we’re already writing off Crochet? I guess no one has ever successful recovered from TJS.

And you never answered my question about the Cubs terrific drafting during their rebuild. What did they have to show from all those high picks outside of Kris Bryant?

I should have given them credit for Rizzo and Contreras as well.

Almora was clearly a bust.

Schwarber and Cease became quite valuable for different reasons.  In some ways, the jury is still out on Ian Happ.

Pierce Johnson has been a serviceable reliever.

 

The White Sox just as easily could have spent $15 million on any FA RFer, still had Madrigal and saved $5.5 million on Harrison.  It remains to seen with Pollock, but Friedman knows what he's doing in LA.  For all the mentions of Bellinger, he was never a realistic possibility for numerous reasons.  With the Rays, he had an uncanny knack for moving players one year early instead of one year too late.  

Edited April 4, 2022 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

31 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Carlos Rodon was a big part of last season’s success. The Madrigal trade turned into Pollock ultimately so we’ll see how that turns out. Collins turned into this season’s backup catcher, another former first round pick. Crochet, despite his injury, has had the biggest impact at the MLB level to date than any player from the 2020 draft. Same for AV out of the 2019 draft (which other 2019 draftees even saw MLB action last season)?

The biggest recent draft disappointments to me have been Carson Fulmer and Zack Burdi but that happens. No organization hits 100% on their first round picks.

I don't know if I would put Burdi there. The devastating injuries really got him and I don't know if you can always predict that.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Carlos Rodon was a big part of last season’s success. The Madrigal trade turned into Pollock ultimately so we’ll see how that turns out. Collins turned into this season’s backup catcher, another former first round pick. Crochet, despite his injury, has had the biggest impact at the MLB level to date than any player from the 2020 draft. Same for AV out of the 2019 draft (which other 2019 draftees even saw MLB action last season)?

The biggest recent draft disappointments to me have been Carson Fulmer and Zack Burdi but that happens. No organization hits 100% on their first round picks.

Look at who Houston got with their picks during their rebuild and compare it to the Sox. Maybe it's just that the Sox never quite matched being as bad as Houston during their respective rebuilds or that the drafts didn't have the same type of talent available.

Rodon wasn't a rebuild draft pick since the rebuild officially began when Sale was Traded Dec 7th, 2016. Rodon was taken in the 2014 draft.

2016 wasn't exactly a banner year for draft picks but their were a few gems especially in the Compensatory round when the Sox selected Burdi. In the 2nd round the Sox took Alec Hansen and later Pete Alonso, Bryan Reynolds and Bo Bichette were taken.

2017 was Burger and Sheets

2018 was Madrigal with Jonathan India selected on the very next pick.

2019 Vaughn who may become very good.

2020 Crochet and Jared Kelley . Injured or a reliever and a HS pitcher pretty far away from contributing to the big club if he ever does.

Not an athletic type among the position players except maybe Madrigal but because of his size not the big strong athletic type.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I should have given them credit for Rizzo and Contreras as well.

Almora was clearly a bust.

Schwarber and Cease became quite valuable for different reasons.  In some ways, the jury is still out on Ian Happ.

Pierce Johnson has been a serviceable reliever.

They didn’t draft Rizzo, they traded for him. Contreras was an international guy, not a draft pick. Schwarber’s success in a Cubs uni was on par with Rodon’s success in a Sox uni. Cease turned into Quintana (partly, Eloy was a much bigger part of that deal), who was a bust for the Cubs by all accounts. Jury is still out on Ian Happ but closed on 22 yo Garrett Crochet? Interesting. If you thought the cubs drafted well during their rebuild, then the same could be said about the Sox because they look very similar to me as far as returns go if Vaughn turns into the hitter that everyone expects.

Edited April 4, 2022 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Look at who Houston got with their picks during their rebuild and compare it to the Sox. Maybe it's just that the Sox never quite matched being as bad as Houston during their respective rebuilds or that the drafts didn't have the same type of talent available.

Rodon wasn't a rebuild draft pick since the rebuild officially began when Sale was Traded Dec 7th, 2016. Rodon was taken in the 2014 draft.

2016 wasn't exactly a banner year for draft picks but their were a few gems especially in the Compensatory round when the Sox selected Burdi. In the 2nd round the Sox took Alec Hansen and later Pete Alonso, Bryan Reynolds and Bo Bichette were taken.

2017 was Burger and Sheets

2018 was Madrigal with Jonathan India selected on the very next pick.

2019 Vaughn who may become very good.

2020 Crochet and Jared Kelley . Injured or a reliever and a HS pitcher pretty far away from contributing to the big club if he ever does.

Not an athletic type among the position players except maybe Madrigal but because of his size not the big strong athletic type.

Taking Abrams over Vaughn would have been ballsy, but it remains a mystery why we haven't gone after athletes who can play CF, middle infield and catcher after all the success with Tim Anderson.

Collins was one of the most unathletic catchers in recent memory.  Madrigal was always going to have physical limitations.  Same with Vaughn and Sheets.

It's almost like they are totally reliant on Cubans and Anderson to supply athleticism...now it's Colas and Cespedes.

Hopefully Montgomery is the next Corey Seager, but that's a huge ask out of him.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Look at who Houston got with their picks during their rebuild and compare it to the Sox. Maybe it's just that the Sox never quite matched being as bad as Houston during their respective rebuilds or that the drafts didn't have the same type of talent available.

Rodon wasn't a rebuild draft pick since the rebuild officially began when Sale was Traded Dec 7th, 2016. Rodon was taken in the 2014 draft.

2016 wasn't exactly a banner year for draft picks but their were a few gems especially in the Compensatory round when the Sox selected Burdi. In the 2nd round the Sox took Alec Hansen and later Pete Alonso, Bryan Reynolds and Bo Bichette were taken.

2017 was Burger and Sheets

2018 was Madrigal with Jonathan India selected on the very next pick.

2019 Vaughn who may become very good.

2020 Crochet and Jared Kelley . Injured or a reliever and a HS pitcher pretty far away from contributing to the big club if he ever does.

Not an athletic type among the position players except maybe Madrigal but because of his size not the big strong athletic type.

There’s no question the Astros did a great job of drafting during their rebuild. They’re the exception, not the rule. Another poster pointed to the Cubs as drafting very well during their rebuild but their drafting during that period looks very similar to what the White Sox have done. Again, I don’t think this is unusual (see Pirates, Orioles, Rangers, and countless other bottom feeders over recent years that have struggled to build around the draft despite a number of high selections). What the Astros have done is unusual.

[ptatc]

The title to this thread is a little misleading. He can start playing catch and throwing at 2 weeks. He won't be throwing of a mound until 4 weeks. So at 4 weeks he will begin building up pitching innings but his arm will already be conditioned for pitching.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

They didn’t draft Rizzo, they traded for him. Contreras was an international guy, not a draft pick. Schwarber’s success in a Cubs uni was on par with Rodon’s success in a Sox uni. Cease turned into Quintana (partly, Eloy was a much bigger part of that deal), who was a bust for the Cubs by all accounts. Jury is still out on Ian Happ but closed on 22 yo Garrett Crochet? Interesting. If you thought the cubs drafted well during their rebuild, then the same could be said about the Sox because they look very similar to me as far as returns go if Vaughn turns into the hitter that everyone expects.

I simply said Crochet was not on the active roster. That's inarguable, and Balta has already pointed out the uphill battle he faces to get to 10 fWAR if everything goes absolutely perfectly the rest of his Sox career.

Last time I checked, Happ was healthy.

At any rate, we definitely don't want to compare the Royals and especially the Astros w/ Sox drafts.

Kris Bryant's production alone likely eclipses all the contributions from Sox rebuild draft picks.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

The title to this thread is a little misleading. He can start playing catch and throwing at 2 weeks. He won't be throwing of a mound until 4 weeks. So at 4 weeks he will begin building up pitching innings but his arm will already be conditioned for pitching.

Most of the national sports headlines are saying mid May return, fwiw.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

There’s no question the Astros did a great job of drafting during their rebuild. They’re the exception, not the rule. Another poster pointed to the Cubs as drafting very well during their rebuild but their drafting during that period looks very similar to what the White Sox have done. Again, I don’t think this is unusual (see Pirates, Orioles, Rangers, and countless other bottom feeders over recent years that have struggled to build around the draft despite a number of high selections). What the Astros have done is unusual.

It all depends if you count Rodon as a rebuild draft pick.

He was drafted while they were still going with the stars and scrubs approach to team building.

That's 33 fWAR that would have to come from Vaughn, Sheets, Burger and Crochet.  Obviously that requires Vaughn being a Top 3-5 AL 1B and then some.  More like JD Martinez, Manny Ramirez or prime Nelson Cruz.

Edited April 4, 2022 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

All of Quintana's improvement, development, etc came with the Sox. It doesn't make sense to discount that because he was a minor league FA (I think?) instead of a draft pick or international signing.

And Soxtalk wasn't exactly enamored with Quintana either. I recall the phrase "smoke and mirrors" being applied to Quintana pretty liberally in his 1st successful stint back in 2012. Maybe the Pirates will part with him

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I simply said Crochet was not on the active roster. That's inarguable, and Balta has already pointed out the uphill battle he faces to get to 10 fWAR if everything goes absolutely perfectly the rest of his Sox career.

Last time I checked, Happ was healthy.

At any rate, we definitely don't want to compare the Royals and especially the Astros w/ Sox drafts.

Kris Bryant's production alone likely eclipses all the contributions from Sox rebuild draft picks.

The Cubs weren’t successful because of their drafting. They were successful because of their trades and international signings. You might not want to admit it but the course of both rebuilds have looked extremely similar in the sense that the Sox rebuild is also primarily centered around trades (Eloy, Kopech, Giolito, Cease, Lynn, Lopez, Moncada) and international signings (Robert, Abreu).

[caulfield12]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The Cubs weren’t successful because of their drafting. They were successful because of their trades and international signings. You might not want to admit it but the course of both rebuilds have looked extremely similar in the sense that the Sox rebuild is also primarily centered around trades (Eloy, Kopech, Giolito, Cease, Lynn, Lopez, Moncada) and international signings (Robert, Abreu).

You're still left with 33 fWAR from Bryant, plus meaningful contributions from Schwarber, Happ and Cease.

Measured against Vaughn, Madrigal, Crochet, Sheets and Burger.

Vaughn has to be close to a super star.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You're still left with 33 fWAR from Bryant, plus meaningful contributions from Schwarber, Happ and Cease.

Measured against Vaughn, Madrigal, Crochet, Sheets and Burger.

Vaughn has to be close to a super star.

So if Madrigal becomes an all star second basemen, which team will you give credit to? Sox or Cubs? Since you seem to be giving the Cubs credit for Cease. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

There’s no question the Astros did a great job of drafting during their rebuild. They’re the exception, not the rule. Another poster pointed to the Cubs as drafting very well during their rebuild but their drafting during that period looks very similar to what the White Sox have done. Again, I don’t think this is unusual (see Pirates, Orioles, Rangers, and countless other bottom feeders over recent years that have struggled to build around the draft despite a number of high selections). What the Astros have done is unusual.

The Astros might be the exception and they had higher picks than the Sox which I already gave the Sox a pass on because they were too good during the rebuild to gte the highest picks. I didn't mention the Cubs but they compensated for having mediocre drafts by spending a boat load of money on Lester and Heyward.And the Astro's and Cubs both won a World Series because of their rebuilds.

It's yet to be seen if the Sox will win a World Series but so far they have done neither of the things that propelled those 2 teams to championships. Maybe the Sox are the exception in that they haven't yet done what it may take to win a Championship.

[Quin]

18 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And Soxtalk wasn't exactly enamored with Quintana either. I recall the phrase "smoke and mirrors" being applied to Quintana pretty liberally in his 1st successful stint back in 2012. Maybe the Pirates will part with him

The Feathered Serpent!

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The Astros might be the exception and they had higher picks than the Sox which I already gave the Sox a pass on because they were too good during the rebuild to gte the highest picks. I didn't mention the Cubs but they compensated for having mediocre drafts by spending a boat load of money on Lester and Heyward.And the Astro's and Cubs both won a World Series because of their rebuilds.

It's yet to be seen if the Sox will win a World Series but so far they have done neither of the things that propelled those 2 teams to championships. Maybe the Sox are the exception in that they haven't yet done what it may take to win a Championship.

I mean we’re in year two of their true contention window (not counting 2020 because that team was largely a surprise much like the 2015 cubs) so I think it’s premature to make any sweeping generalizations or conclusions at this point. If three years from now the Sox still haven’t made it past the first round of the playoffs I would agree that the rebuild has been a big disappointment even if they win the division each of the next three seasons.

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So if Madrigal becomes an all star second basemen, which team will you give credit to? Sox or Cubs? Since you seem to be giving the Cubs credit for Cease. 

The White Sox, who drafted him originally.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So if Madrigal becomes an all star second basemen, which team will you give credit to? Sox or Cubs? Since you seem to be giving the Cubs credit for Cease. 

It would be very difficult to give the Sox any credit because they traded him ,which if he becomes an All Star it will mean they traded away an All-Star giving up a cost controlled player for a $16M relief pitcher they then had to trade for a 34 yr old OF for a year or 2.

Plus on top of that they kept Kimbrel but no QO to Rodon nor did they pursue Rodon as a FA . They bloated the payroll, had no depth at Starting pitching, had to pay for another old guy to cover 2nd base.

Plus they had to replace Madrigal (who was injured) so they traded Hernandez for Pilkington who has made Cleveland's roster to start the season. That's just a really nasty chain of events all linked to the TDL trades, all linked to a higher payroll , older players and no starting pitching depth. Not exactly championship quality moves.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I mean we’re in year two of their true contention window (not counting 2020 because that team was largely a surprise much like the 2015 cubs) so I think it’s premature to make any sweeping generalizations or conclusions at this point. If three years from now the Sox still haven’t made it past the first round of the playoffs I would agree that the rebuild has been a big disappointment even if they win the division each of the next three seasons.

Other than the Astros, who they also had a surprising "earlier than expected breakthrough season"...the Cubs and Royals both peaked in Years 1-3 of their contention windows.  KC actually had just two, but 98% of Sox fans would trade two World Series in 2022-23 for five to seven consecutive divisions without advancing.

If there's such a thing as due...this should be the year if they want to keep the train on the tracks.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The White Sox, who drafted him originally.

Ok, etch this one in stone. Same with Collins, Pilkington and any other Sox draftees that they trade in the future like they have in the past (Semien, Bassitt, etc). We’ll give the Sox all the credit for those guys since they drafted them. Good to note.