Cueto to Sox (Official)

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

They all have access to the information.  The problem is the records only show much. Imaging shows structure but not necessarily function. For example, they've done studies of people wit no history of back pain and did MRI on them. Depending on the study 40-60% we're diagnosed with an disc herniation.

Working with someone on a daily basis tells you more than medical records.

Excuse me if I trust the Giants more than the Sox when it comes to handling pitchers. https://aroundthefoghorn.com/2021/07/16/sf-giants-surprises-first-half/

The Giants got started by issuing a one-year, $18.9 million qualifying offer to Kevin Gausman, which he accepted. Then, they dished out a trio of one-year, pillow contracts to Anthony DeSclafani, Alex Wood, and Aaron Sanchez. On top of this, Sammy Long was reeled in on a minor-league pact with an invite to spring training.

?There was plenty of risk with this approach. DeSclafani and Wood battled ineffectiveness as well as injuries in 2020, whereas Sanchez missed the entire year as he recovered from shoulder surgery.

This was a strategy that could have fell flat on its face. Some of that risk came to fruition as many Giants starters have spent time on the shelf in 2021, but as a unit, they have been one of the best in baseball. The starting rotation has combined to post the third-best ERA in baseball at 3.18, behind only the New York Mets (2.98 ERA) and the Los Angeles Dodgers (2.94 ERA).

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Excuse me if I trust the Giants more than the Sox when it comes to handling pitchers. https://aroundthefoghorn.com/2021/07/16/sf-giants-surprises-first-half/

The Giants got started by issuing a one-year, $18.9 million qualifying offer to Kevin Gausman, which he accepted. Then, they dished out a trio of one-year, pillow contracts to Anthony DeSclafani, Alex Wood, and Aaron Sanchez. On top of this, Sammy Long was reeled in on a minor-league pact with an invite to spring training.

?There was plenty of risk with this approach. DeSclafani and Wood battled ineffectiveness as well as injuries in 2020, whereas Sanchez missed the entire year as he recovered from shoulder surgery.

This was a strategy that could have fell flat on its face. Some of that risk came to fruition as many Giants starters have spent time on the shelf in 2021, but as a unit, they have been one of the best in baseball. The starting rotation has combined to post the third-best ERA in baseball at 3.18, behind only the New York Mets (2.98 ERA) and the Los Angeles Dodgers (2.94 ERA).

That's fine you can do that. Again I wouldn't take the chance on someone like Rodon and his injury history.

[bmags]

23 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

How? they are already dealing with a 40 man crunch.

Not for pitchers

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's fine you can do that. Again I wouldn't take the chance on someone like Rodon and his injury history.

Ironically, We are in the Cueto thread, and he has a pretty regular history of minor and major injuries the last few years.

[Tony]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's fine you can do that. Again I wouldn't take the chance on someone like Rodon and his injury history.

The issue I have with this is the alternative became Vince Velasquez. 

I wouldn't want to invest long term dollars into Carlos Rodon. I understand that. 

But the Sox didn't have to. They could have made a one-year investment to a pitcher that just gave them a 5 WAR in 2021, and have thin pitching depth in their organization. It would have just cost them money, nothing else. 

"Taking a chance" is an overstatement when it's a one-year commitment to a player that JUST produced for you. 

And looking at things in hindsight, if you're asking me if I'd rather have Rodon or Harrison/Velazquez/Kelly in 2022...I'm taking Rodon. Mendick can play the Harrison role, VV SUCKS, and who knows when Joe Kelly actually gets here.

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Ironically, We are in the Cueto thread, and he has a pretty regular history of minor and major injuries the last few years.

Yep. They were using him for depth originally. Unfortunately they may need to depend on him.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Yep. They were using him for depth originally. Unfortunately they may need to depend on him.

“Originally” as in literally 2 days ago when they signed him?

[Snopek]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Yep. They were using him for depth originally. Unfortunately they may need to depend on him.

I feel like they brought him in because they need another arm to depend on <gulp>. If they were bringing him in originally for depth, wouldn't they have done that earlier?

[gogosox1959]

I don't understand these posts which imply that signing Rodon for one year was an option.  Rodon/Boros were clear that wasn't an option for them. 

(The issue about failing to get the draft pick is  a separate issue)

btw.  When they signed Kelly, it was with the full knowledge that he wasn't going to be ready for April.  All we've heard is that he's on schedule.

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

The issue I have with this is the alternative became Vince Velasquez. 

I wouldn't want to invest long term dollars into Carlos Rodon. I understand that. 

But the Sox didn't have to. They could have made a one-year investment to a pitcher that just gave them a 5 WAR in 2021, and have thin pitching depth in their organization. It would have just cost them money, nothing else. 

"Taking a chance" is an overstatement when it's a one-year commitment to a player that JUST produced for you. 

And looking at things in hindsight, if you're asking me if I'd rather have Rodon or Harrison/Velazquez/Kelly in 2022...I'm taking Rodon. Mendick can play the Harrison role, VV SUCKS, and who knows when Joe Kelly actually gets here.

I agree. They should have made pitching more of the priority.  Lengthening the bullpen was a good start.

As many said once the CBA was agreed to, the shortened spring training would place an emphasis on pitching and if you look around the league, not just with the Sox, pitchers are dropping. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Snopek said:

I feel like they brought him in because they need another arm to depend on <gulp>. If they were bringing him in originally for depth, wouldn't they have done that earlier?

If you believe the reports, the deal was in the works before the Lynn injury, he was just waiting to see if he could get an MLB deal not a minor league one.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

31 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Any pitcher that pitched 150 innings or more last year. I don't know who was available for traded, Manea was obviously. 

I would assume Bassitt and Sonny Gray neither of whom they traded for. I can't remember who else fits that description.

Pineda fell short in IP (109) but the Tigers signed him $5.5 + incentives.

Royals signed Greinke for $13M that fits your description and is 38.

Royals traded Mike Minor to the Reds He pitched 150 IP with a 5 ERA and is 34.

Blue Jays signed Kikuchi 3/$36M He had a little over 150 IP, age 30.

Dodgers resigned Kershaw 1 yr. $17M, 34 yrs old.

Giants Rodon

Stroman 2yrs. $50M signed with Cubs

Previously discussed Manea, Guasman

Sox didn't get any of those guys.

Given that list and what they signed for there are a few guys the Sox could've pursued none of whom were really seriously discussed as Sox options by the board. Here and there there they were but always the usual ewww no, just like with Rodon or the Manea, Gray and Bassitt discussions that went  like this: The Sox could've matched or exceeded those offers !

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Snopek]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

If you believe the reports, the deal was in the works before the Lynn injury, he was just waiting to see if he could get an MLB deal not a minor league one.

Thanks, didn't know about that.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

If you believe the reports, the deal was in the works before the Lynn injury, he was just waiting to see if he could get an MLB deal not a minor league one.

I have not seen this reported, can you provide a link?

[ptatc]

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I would assume Bassitt and Sonny Gray neither of whom they traded for. I can't remember who else fits that description.

Pineda fell short in IP (109) but the Tigers signed him $5.5 + incentives.

Royals signed Greinke for $13M that fits your description and is 38.

Royals traded Mike Minor to the Reds He pitched 150 IP with a 5 ERA and is 34.

Blue Jays signed Kikuchi 3/$36M He had a little over 150 IP, age 30.

Dodgers resigned Kershaw 1 yr. $17M, 34 yrs old.

Giants Rodon

Stroman 2yrs. $50M signed with Cubs

Previously discussed Manea, Guasman

Sox didn't get any of those guys.

Given that list and what they signed for there are a few guys the Sox could've pursued none of whom were really seriously discussed as Sox options by the board. Here and there there they were but always the usual ewww no, just like with Rodon or the Manea, Gray and Bassitt discussions that went  like this: The Sox could've matched or exceeded those offers !

 

 

 

 

Those are all possibilities.  Like I said there were probably many others who could have been had in trades as well.

They didn't need a TOR type of guy just an innings eater. 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

42 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I am saying that Rodon was not going to accept the QO. Not anything about Hahn but obviously it seems like Hahn thought he may take it given they didn't offer it. The Sox, like in many other cases with other players this offseason, seemed to have underestimated Rodon's market and didn't want to risk the 18.9m that they didn't think he'd get. It was the wrong call.

There is no doubt Hahn had a brutal off season but back in Novemeber I agreed with the decision to not to offer Rodon the QO because it was far too much money and there was a lot of indecision on if he was going to accept it. I'm not going to use hindsight to change my opinion.  I agreed with the decision then and I agree with it now.

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I have not seen this reported, can you provide a link?

Someone posted it on here. Can't remember who.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

I agree with the overall premise except for the 135 innings. His limit will probably be closer to 120 due to his lack of innings over the past few years. If he pitches 135 he will be useless at the end of those. They need him for the playoffs.

I mean he pitched 69 innings last season. That’s more than Rodon did in 2019 and 2020 combined.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I mean he pitched 69 innings last season. That’s more than Rodon did in 2019 and 2020 combined.

Correct. But Rodon was also a flier on a 3mil contract not an important prospect.

Also look at Rodon's performance at the end of the year. He was gassed and not effective. This while playing for a big payday.

Edited April 6, 2022 by ptatc

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

28 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That's fine you can do that. Again I wouldn't take the chance on someone like Rodon and his injury history.

 But you still haven't told me who they should've signed or traded for . I just provided you with a list of names. It's easy to disagree with my choice but given what the Sox have/haven't done . I'm not real sure why your discussing it with me other than to disagree about Rodon while also agreeing the Sox screwed up addressing the SP.

I've at least been consistent that SP was a need and I tackled it with my suggestion that frankly seems to be one of the best options among the pitchers that have been traded or signed when you take into consideration the upside and why the Sox didnt trade for a pitcher.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, raBBit said:

Yup. Just like last offseason when they acquired Lynn, the number 1 priority should have been a playoff caliber starting pitcher.

If Scherzer/Verlander/Ray were too rich/risky, then they should have gone to Gausman/Stroman or even Rodon. Unacceptable to just completely misjudge the market. Sox play in a great city, should have the highest playoff probability in baseball and a route to winning for years to come. They had a very enticing offer if they could just compete monetarily. They need to stop expecting the market to come down to their internal valuations which have been incredibly low. Especially with the minute potential the team had to acquire this type of player via trade, they should have understood the necessity to strike in FA and convert on a big arm early. I think they tried, but were woefully low on Verlander, Ray and probably others. Seems like they didn't give Rodon much thought or pursuit at all.  

Can’t they still add a big arm in July if needed? That’s worked well for teams like the Astros in the past. You need 4 solid starters in the postseason. If everyone is healthy (big assumption), the Sox already have that. If they’re not healthy and/or not performing, then why couldn’t they trade for one in July?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Correct. But Rodon was also a flier on a 3mil contract not an important prospect.

Also look at Rodon's performance at the end of the year. He was gassed and not effective. This while playing for a big payday.

Sox have control on Kopech for this season and three more. The guy works his ass off and is now three years removed from TJS. I don’t see any reason to baby him. 120 limit seems too light. I’m not saying get stupid and push him 175+ but 135-150 seems perfectly reasonable.

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 But you still haven't told me who they should've signed or traded for . I just provided you with a list of names. It's easy to disagree with my choice but given what the Sox have/haven't done . I'm not real sure why your discussing it with me other than to disagree about Rodon while also agreeing the Sox screwed up addressing the SP.

I've at least been consistent that SP was a need and I tackled it with my suggestion that frankly seems to be one of the best options among the pitchers that have been traded or signed when you take into consideration the upside and why the Sox didnt trade for a pitcher.

Hiw about any if the 80 or pitchers who pitched 150 innings or more? Doesn't have to be specific.  Nobody with an significant injury history last year. If you really have have a name to blame someone, I'll take Manaea because he was avaliable and pitched 150 innings.

 

I'm not sure why you are dragging this out. We basically agree on everything except that Rodon should be the additional pitchers on this team. I would not have taken the chance on his injury history with that contract.

I would literally take nearly anyone with the qualifications I described.

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Sox have control on Kopech for this season and three more. The guy works his ass off and is now three years removed from TJS. I don’t see any reason to baby him. 120 limit seems too light. I’m not saying get stupid and push him 175+ but 135-150 seems perfectly reasonable.

You have to baby him as you put it because you will increase his injury likelihood tremendously if you increase his innings too much. He pitched 70 last year they can't double it and not expect issues to arise.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You have to baby him as you put it because you will increase his injury likelihood tremendously if you increase his innings too much. He pitched 70 last year they can't double it and not expect issues to arise.

I guess. I still remember Adam Wainwright went down with TJS in early 2011.

His final stat line for 2012 season at age 30:

32 GS, 198.2 IP, 3.94 ERA

the next season (2013), he finished second in cy young voting (241.2 IP) and then third the season after that (227 IP). Sometimes we baby these guys too much…