Cueto to Sox (Official)

[pcq]

Teams act like they know what they are doing with pitchers and injuries. The culprit is throwing too hard.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, pcq said:

Teams act like they know what they are doing with pitchers and injuries. The culprit is throwing too hard.

Too hard, too much. "Reaching back for that extra" is fine. It's when you do it for every pitch that it becomes an issue.

[Balta1701]

28 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Too hard, too much. "Reaching back for that extra" is fine. It's when you do it for every pitch that it becomes an issue.

This is only one half of the modern day arms race though. This is a league where most number 8 hitters will hit a get-me-over pitch out of the park, and guys like Moncada will hit .375 unless you strike them out because they hit the ball so hard. Pitchers who don’t do this don’t stay in the league.

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is only one half of the modern day arms race though. This is a league where most number 8 hitters will hit a get-me-over pitch out of the park, and guys like Moncada will hit .375 unless you strike them out because they hit the ball so hard. Pitchers who don’t do this don’t stay in the league.

No doubt it's been shown that statistically the best way to keep runs off the board is to take no chances and strike them out. 

It's to the detriment of the pitchers health.

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

No doubt it's been shown that statistically the best way to keep runs off the board is to take no chances and strike them out. 

It's to the detriment of the pitchers health.

But if they don’t do that, batters are skilled to the point that the pitcher will have an ERA of 5 and be discarded for someone who will.

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

But if they don’t do that, batters are skilled to the point that the pitcher will have an ERA of 5 and be discarded for someone who will.

Just because it is the most efficient doesn't mean it's the only way. There are other pitches besides the fastball.

[FoxForce2]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

But if they don’t do that, batters are skilled to the point that the pitcher will have an ERA of 5 and be discarded for someone who will.

But how many of those 'who will' -- can? And for how long?

[FoxForce2]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

Just because it is the most efficient doesn't mean it's the only way. There are other pitches besides the fastball.

I recall 3-4 years ago when the pitchers were so far ahead of the hitters that MLB was considering moving the mound back and even lowering it. It didn't take long for that to change. Major league sliders are the bane of many modern pitchers. Four seams can be pitched with at least some lessening of arm strain/distress, sliders - not nearly so much.

Edited April 7, 2022 by FoxForce2

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

I recall 3-4 years ago when the pitchers were so far of the hitters that MLB was considering moving the mound back and even lowering it. It didn't take long for that to change. Major league sliders are the bane of many modern pitchers. Four seams can be pitched with at least some lessening of arm strain/distress, sliders - not nearly so much.

Actually the research on this has changed dramatically.  With the advanced analytics of grips, pitchers have learned that if they change the grip but not the arm angle the slider can work well. They have done a good job of lessening the stress on the arm with the slider. Most of the UCL injuries are now tracked to how often the max effort it used for max velocity on the fastball. 

[FoxForce2]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Actually the research on this has changed dramatically.  With the advanced analytics of grips, pitchers have learned that if they change the grip but not the arm angle the slider can work well. They have done a good job of lessening the stress on the arm with the slider. Most of the UCL injuries are now tracked to how often the max effort it used for max velocity on the fastball. 

That's interesting and worth a fan's looking into. References?
Maybe Chris Sale didn't get the memo.

Edited April 7, 2022 by FoxForce2

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

That's interesting and worth a fan's looking into. References?
Maybe Chris Sale didn't get the memo.

I posted a couple of articles within the last year or so. I'll dig them up tomorrow. 

Chris Sales issues are probably more related to his increased use of the fastball at velocity when he went to Boston Moreno than the slider. I think his fastball usage went up if I recall.

 

[ptatc]

8 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

That's interesting and worth a fan's looking into. References?
Maybe Chris Sale didn't get the memo.

Here's one, I believe. It was stored on the site.

UCLand velo.pdf

[FoxForce2]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I posted a couple of articles within the last year or so. I'll dig them up tomorrow. 

Chris Sales issues are probably more related to his increased use of the fastball at velocity when he went to Boston Moreno than the slider. I think his fastball usage went up if I recall.

 

Whatever happened with Sale wasn't simply a Boston issue. Have a look at Sale's numbers in Chicago after Aug 15 in each season. Sliders coming out of the 'inverted W', even if a less than dramatic 'W', are a well documented strain producing problem.

[ptatc]

20 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

Whatever happened with Sale wasn't simply a Boston issue. Have a look at Sale's numbers in Chicago after Aug 15 in each season. Sliders coming out of the 'inverted W', even if a less than dramatic 'W', are a well documented strain producing problem.

True but very few teach the inverted W anymore. We realized pretty quickly the bad habits it created. It was mostly due to the lack of balance it created.

What I never liked about Sales delivery was the quick flip from internal rotation to maximal external rotation leading into the acceleration phase. He just never gave the arm a chance with the poor force transmission from his lower body.

He kept up pretty well considering everything.  It's amazing that the Sox were able to keep him as healthy as they did, which all the experts didn't think anyone could do.

Edited April 7, 2022 by ptatc

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, ptatc said:

True but very few teach the inverted W anymore. We realized pretty quickly the bad habits it created. It was mostly due to the lack of balance it created.

What I never liked about Sales delivery was the quick flip from internal rotation to maximal external rotation leading into the acceleration phase. He just never gave the arm a chance with the poor force transmission from his lower body.

He kept up pretty well considering everything.  It's amazing that the Sox were able to keep him as healthy as they did, which all the experts didn't think anyone could do.

what do you attribute Crochet's problems to, more mechanics or simply the lack of previous starting workload at Univ. of Tennessee compared to Sale at Florida Gulf Coast?

equivalent impacts?

[ptatc]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

what do you attribute Crochet's problems to, more mechanics or simply the lack of previous starting workload at Univ. of Tennessee compared to Sale at Florida Gulf Coast?

equivalent impacts?

He does does have that short arm quick flip as well but not as bad as Sale. I don't think his mechanics are too bad.

I think it more lack of workload and trying to throw everything near the top of his velocity. 

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, ptatc said:

He does does have that short arm quick flip as well but not as bad as Sale. I don't think his mechanics are too bad.

I think it more lack of workload and trying to throw everything near the top of his velocity. 

I would guess there has never been a collegiate pitcher taken in the first round with a lighter workload... would have to go back and look at Royce Ring and Aaron Poreda. 

Plus, another factor has to be how light he is. That said, guys like Sale, Pedro Martinez and Oswalt are/were hardly much bigger, Big Unit comes to mind as well.  Greinke when he was drafted.  Carl Edwards, Jr., etc. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by caulfield12

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

I would guess there has never been a collegiate pitcher taken in the first round with a lighter workload... would have to go back and look at Royce Ring and Aaron Poreda. 

Plus, another factor has to be how light he is. That said, guys like Sale, Pedro Martinez and Oswalt are/were hardly much bigger, Big Unit comes to mind as well.  Greinke when he was drafted.  Carl Edwards, Jr., etc. 

All this talk about velocity leading to injury. I don’t recall this being an issue with the Big Unit.

[SpringfieldFan]

27 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

All this talk about velocity leading to injury. I don’t recall this being an issue with the Big Unit.

I don’t know, to me It just didn’t look like the Unit had to exert that much to get that velocity. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, SpringfieldFan said:

I don’t know, to me It just didn’t look like the Unit had to exert that much to get that velocity. 

I’m sure he did throwing that hard. Same with Pedro.

[ptatc]

30 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

All this talk about velocity leading to injury. I don’t recall this being an issue with the Big Unit.

The are a couple if issues when you are referring to a single person as an example.

1. How often did he throw at his max effort? He threw hard but was he there all the time?

2. He was an HOF pitcher. Some people just have the genetics to handle it. Nolan Ryan had poor mechanics and when they tried to teach people to throw like him, arms exploded. He was able to do it when few others could.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Different times I guess

Edited April 7, 2022 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Pedro had an 11 season stretch where he pitched more than 186 innings in all but one season. I can’t even imagine hard throwing starter’s doing that these days. And he wasn’t exactly the biggest guy either. 5’-11” and rail thin when he came up.

Edited April 7, 2022 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The are a couple if issues when you are referring to a single person as an example.

1. How often did he throw at his max effort? He threw hard but was he there all the time?

2. He was an HOF pitcher. Some people just have the genetics to handle it. Nolan Ryan had poor mechanics and when they tried to teach people to throw like him, arms exploded. He was able to do it when few others could.

I’m trying to think of a single (successful) hard throwing starting pitcher over the last 10 years that’s avoided significant arm injury that guys like Nolan and Randy did. Can you think of one? Don’t you find that to be odd?

Edited April 7, 2022 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’m trying to think of a single hard throwing starting pitcher over the last 10 years that’s avoided significant arm injury that guys like Nolan and Randy did. Can you think of one? Don’t you find that to be odd?

With the way the philosophy of pitching has changed where they don't pace themselves in an attempt to throw 9 innings, it going to be rare. There is just so much stress on the arm that it just causes issues.

A couple of other factors are the lack of minor league innings to condition the arm and the increased number of teams and pitchers needed. Many of the current pitchers would have been injured and out of the minors before they even made it to the MLB.

Also with the advancement of surgery and rehab no one is afraid of UCL injuries as they know they miss one season and have an 85% of being the same or better than before.