Cueto to Sox (Official)

[quickman]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'll say this too, if it wasn't clear, I don't care what anyone posts. If someone wants to post that joe Crede wasn't the greatest 3rd baseman in MLB history, they can do that. They'll be wrong, and completely ignorant worthy of immense disdain and hatred, but they're free to express that blasphemes opinion 

personally, I come from another Era, Brooks Robinson, George Brett, Sal Bando, Mike Schmidt, chipper Jones I can probably name 5 more. Maybe Crede was the best in a whitesox Uniform in decades, but no chance is he one of the best of all times. SORRY if this was a joke and I didnt catch on. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Renteria was just experimenting.  Rodon had almost no pen experience before then in his entire career, just 2-3 times the last ten days of the season.  Plus he wasn’t given a clean inning, either.

Doesn’t change the fact that he sucked really bad in 2019 and 2020 and I never wanted to see him in a Sox uniform again. I’d bet if you dug up the playoff game thread that many felt the same way.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Doesn’t change the fact that he sucked really bad in 2019 and 2020 and I never wanted to see him in a Sox uniform again. I’d bet if you dug up the playoff game thread that many felt the same way.

The Giants would certainly argue otherwise.  You can't make emotional decisions about guys like Rodon,  Madrigal and Vaughn simply in response to fan sentiment.  The White Sox need to be knowledgeable about which players can be asked to do what...

Edited April 6, 2022 by caulfield12

[wrathofhahn]

10 hours ago, EloyJenkins said:

When Rodon's arm blows up in May are all of you going to STFU? Seriously, it's over. Move on. He is going to get hurt. Cueto is a warm body and better than internal options. End of story. This site is really becoming unbearable.

Why would you want to buy a car that has been totalled twice? Just salute Boras for his genius and move on

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

Why would you want to buy a car that has been totalled twice? Just salute Boras for his genius and move on

Now we are to the point of almost wishing injuries for Rodon (and Madrigal it seems) to prove a point? 

The better they do, shouldn't that partially be a reflection on the organization?  If they all get hurt, why would other teams in the future want to trade for Sox players/prospects? 

Do you really believe the Giants are so dumb as to be easily fooled by Scott Boras PR stunts? 

Edited April 6, 2022 by caulfield12

[greg775]

Don't have time to read it all. So tell me, will I like Cueto? Is he good? Will he replace Dallas? How is Keuchel doing anyway in ST. Been too busy to follow.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

The Giants would certainly argue otherwise.  You can't make emotional decisions about guys like Rodon,  Madrigal and Vaughn simply in response to fan sentiment.  The White Sox need to be knowledgeable about which players can be asked to do what...

Rodon was absolutely labeled a bust after 2020. This has nothing to do with emotion. There’s no denying this otherwise he would have received an offer far better than 1 year/$3M. The Sox weren’t expecting much from him going into last season and neither was the fanbase. You’re lying if you say you did. Somehow it worked out. No one is expecting anything from Keuchel, VV, or Lopez this season. Wouldn’t surprise me if one had a good season after witnessing Rodon’s transformation last year.

[Leonard Zelig]

12 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Don't have time to read it all. So tell me, will I like Cueto? Is he good? Will he replace Dallas? How is Keuchel doing anyway in ST. Been too busy to follow.

Probably more than Alex Rios. Probably not.  Probably not.  Not good.  

[Tony]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Don't have time to read it all. So tell me, will I like Cueto? Is he good? Will he replace Dallas? How is Keuchel doing anyway in ST. Been too busy to follow.

Grandal got hurt, whole big thing, so they are going to try and have Cueto play catcher. We’ll see if it works out, guy still has a hell of an arm. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Rodon was absolutely labeled a bust after 2020. This has nothing to do with emotion. There’s no denying this otherwise he would have received an offer far better than 1 year/$3M. The Sox weren’t expecting much from him going into last season and neither was the fanbase. You’re lying if you say you did. Somehow it worked out. No one is expecting anything from Keuchel, VV, or Lopez this season. Wouldn’t surprise me if one had a good season after witnessing Rodon’s transformation last year.

I know the word "bust" encompasses many ways in which young players fail. Like many of them the Rodon failure was always injury related. He always had high end talent but his mechanics sucked and led to injuries.

Sometimes a player can overcome a previous reputation. It's very hard for people who have been at the top of the athletic food chain for most of their lives to discard  the things that made them successful. It may also be hard to actually work harder because things had come so easy before.

Rodon made changes and came out the best version of himself. The question now has been and forever will be with him "will the changes he made also help him stay healthier" ?  That's where we are all divided.

It's always easiest to go with the flow and say he's always been bad, he's always been unhealthy , he is what he is and will never be anything else and  a high percentage of the time you will be right. I like to go against the grain sometimes because it's a belief in the player rather than a belief in his past. Plus logically my head told me he was the best chance at a high upside arm at the lowest possible cost.

To most of the board Conforto was worth twice as much as Rodon.

But I'd rather take my shot at an often injured high end 29 yr. old talent from just a year ago for the next 2 years for what the Giants paid for him than throw money at Harrison, Kimbrel, Leury etc..  When you lose your best starting pitcher he has to be replaced with someone equally impressive. Rodon was the best person to replace himself without the  5year $100M contract people were expecting for and willing to pay for Conforto, a guy who had a very good track record of success but a terrible year in 2021.

Apparently even though certain people here told us that GM's would not be as swayed by the bad year as fans are, apparently one GM was swayed more by a guy coming off an elite 1/2 year. There are also apparently 30 other GM's not overly swayed by Conforto's past success.

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I know the word "bust" encompasses many ways in which young players fail. Like many of them the Rodon failure was always injury related. He always had high end talent but his mechanics sucked and led to injuries.

Sometimes a player can overcome a previous reputation. It's very hard for people who have been at the top of the athletic food chain for most of their lives to discard  the things that made them successful. It may also be hard to actually work harder because things had come so easy before.

Rodon made changes and came out the best version of himself. The question now has been and forever will be with him "will the changes he made also help him stay healthier" ?  That's where we are all divided.

It's always easiest to go with the flow and say he's always been bad, he's always been unhealthy , he is what he is and will never be anything else and  a high percentage of the time you will be right. I like to go against the grain sometimes because it's a belief in the player rather than a belief in his past. Plus logically my head told me he was the best chance at a high upside arm at the lowest possible cost.

To most of the board Conforto was worth twice as much as Rodon.

But I'd rather take my shot at an often injured high end 29 yr. old talent from just a year ago for the next 2 years for what the Giants paid for him than throw money at Harrison, Kimbrel, Leury etc..  When you lose your best starting pitcher he has to be replaced with someone equally impressive. Rodon was the best person to replace himself without the  5year $100M contract people were expecting for and willing to pay for Conforto, a guy who had a very good track record of success but a terrible year in 2021.

Apparently even though certain people here told us that GM's would not be as swayed by the bad year as fans are, apparently one GM was swayed more by a guy coming off an elite 1/2 year. There are also apparently 30 other GM's not overly swayed by Conforto's past success.

 

Rodon’s replacement is Kopech. Whether or not he gives them an ERA below 3 and 130 innings remains to be seen but he is the Rodon replacement in the rotation. The rest of the rotation is the same as last season - Gio, Lynn, Cease, DK. So when people say they didn’t replace Rodon in the rotation, that’s incorrect. They did but they used someone within the organization already. This was the plan all along and there’s nothing wrong with that. Guys like Lopez, Cueto and VV provide additional depth just like Lopez and Lambert did last year.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

26 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Rodon’s replacement is Kopech. Whether or not he gives them an ERA below 3 and 130 innings remains to be seen but he is the Rodon replacement in the rotation. The rest of the rotation is the same as last season - Gio, Lynn, Cease, DK. So when people say they didn’t replace Rodon in the rotation, that’s incorrect. They did but they used someone within the organization already. This was the plan all along and there’s nothing wrong with that. Guys like Lopez, Cueto and VV provide additional depth just like Lopez and Lambert did last year.

I don't think Rodon's replacement is Kopech. He is a young guy just starting out as an MLB starting pitcher . To replace the production of a 5 WAR player you have to get someone who has shown that ability to be a 5 WAR player in the very recent past. He will have his troubles. Plus the older guys like Lynn and Keuchel are a year older and Keuchel coming off a bad year.

Kopech was better off as a replacement for Keuchel , one old question mark replaced by a young question mark. That's a better definition of a "replaced." One question mark for another question mark with the potential to be a better replacement because Keuchel's best years are behind him while Kopech's are ahead of him.

If you want to compete at a championship level you must have starting pitching depth. If you want to use "replaced" as we threw a young guy with a lot of unproven potential coming off an offseason of Covid, we have a very different definition of "replaced".

If that was the plan all along why was it that Hahn told us we needed more starting pitching and the lineup had to be balanced ? Any time you start throwing around talent that is unproven or fighting father time into your starting rotation ( Kopech, Lopez, Cueto, Keuchel, Velasquez) in your aspirations for a championship chances are that you aren't going to get that championship.

Edited April 6, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think Rodon's replacement is Kopech. He is a young guy just starting out as an MLB starting pitcher . To replace the production of a 5 WAR player you have to get someone who has shown that ability to be a 5 WAR player in the very recent past. He will have his troubles. Plus the older guys like Lynn and Keuchel are a year older and Keuchel coming off a bad year.

Kopech was better off as a replacement for Keuchel , one old question mark replaced by a young question mark. That's a better definition of a "replaced." One question mark for another question mark with the potential to be a better replacement because Keuchel's best years are behind him while Kopech's are ahead of him.

If you want to compete at a championship level you must have starting pitching depth. If you want to use "replaced" as we threw a young guy with a lot of unproven potential coming off an offseason of Covid, we have a very different definition of "replaced".

If that was the plan all along why was it that Hahn told us we needed more starting pitching and the lineup had to be balanced ? Any time you start throwing around talent that is unproven or fighting father time ( Kopech, Lopez, Keuchel, Velasquez) in your aspirations for a championship chances are that you aren't going to get that championship.

Even the ever-positive Sox fans were somewhat sceptical about Kopech being one of five dark horse Cy Young candidates... clearly favoring Cease for that honor. 

I suppose their argument is more about that All-Star version of Rodon being unavailable in the postseason, but there are no guarantees Kopech will still retain his early summer stuff in September, either.  Not until he actually goes out and DOES it once. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, greg775 said:

Don't have time to read it all. So tell me, will I like Cueto? Is he good? Will he replace Dallas? How is Keuchel doing anyway in ST. Been too busy to follow.

Cueto is on his last legs and needs a few week to get ready and maybe Keuchel is too. That's the long and short of it Greg.

[caulfield12]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Cueto is on his last legs and needs a few week to get ready and maybe Keuchel is too. That's the long and short of it Greg.

We do know that Keuchel should be more motivated, with an opportunity to hit his innings incentives and guarantee another $18 million salary for next season. 

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think Rodon's replacement is Kopech. He is a young guy just starting out as an MLB starting pitcher . To replace the production of a 5 WAR player you have to get someone who has shown that ability to be a 5 WAR player in the very recent past. He will have his troubles. Plus the older guys like Lynn and Keuchel are a year older and Keuchel coming off a bad year.

Kopech was better off as a replacement for Keuchel , one old question mark replaced by a young question mark. That's a better definition of a "replaced." One question mark for another question mark with the potential to be a better replacement because Keuchel's best years are behind him while Kopech's are ahead of him.

If you want to compete at a championship level you must have starting pitching depth. If you want to use "replaced" as we threw a young guy with a lot of unproven potential coming off an offseason of Covid, we have a very different definition of "replaced".

If that was the plan all along why was it that Hahn told us we needed more starting pitching and the lineup had to be balanced ? Any time you start throwing around talent that is unproven or fighting father time into your starting rotation ( Kopech, Lopez, Cueto, Keuchel, Velasquez) in your aspirations for a championship chances are that you aren't going to get that championship.

The irony here is that Rodon wasn't a 5 WAR guy going into last year either. In fact he had put up a little over 6 war in about 530 innings, working out to a 4.14 era and 4.26 whip at 28 years old.  Going into 2021 Rodon was the very definition of "unproven young talent ", "coming off of covid" and he still hasn't proven he can be counted on.

Much like Rodon, the question for Kopech isn't stuff, it's health.  Kopech has the arm and stuff 100%.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't think Rodon's replacement is Kopech. He is a young guy just starting out as an MLB starting pitcher . To replace the production of a 5 WAR player you have to get someone who has shown that ability to be a 5 WAR player in the very recent past. He will have his troubles. Plus the older guys like Lynn and Keuchel are a year older and Keuchel coming off a bad year.

Kopech was better off as a replacement for Keuchel , one old question mark replaced by a young question mark. That's a better definition of a "replaced." One question mark for another question mark with the potential to be a better replacement because Keuchel's best years are behind him while Kopech's are ahead of him.

If you want to compete at a championship level you must have starting pitching depth. If you want to use "replaced" as we threw a young guy with a lot of unproven potential coming off an offseason of Covid, we have a very different definition of "replaced".

If that was the plan all along why was it that Hahn told us we needed more starting pitching and the lineup had to be balanced ? Any time you start throwing around talent that is unproven or fighting father time into your starting rotation ( Kopech, Lopez, Cueto, Keuchel, Velasquez) in your aspirations for a championship chances are that you aren't going to get that championship.

By definition, Kopech is quite literally Rodon’s replacement. Not sure how that is debatable? I already acknowledged that him producing an ERA below over 130 innings is uncertain but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he did. No one knows, just like no one knew Rodon would be a Cy Young candidate last season.

As for the rest of the rotation, who knows. And quite frankly, even if they are less productive in the regular season but pitch better in the postseason that’s what they need. Lynn, Rodon, and Cease were god awful in the postseason.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The irony here is that Rodon wasn't a 5 WAR guy going into last year either. In fact he had put up a little over 6 war in about 530 innings, working out to a 4.14 era and 4.26 whip at 28 years old.  Going into 2021 Rodon was the very definition of "unproven young talent ", "coming off of covid" and he still hasn't proven he can be counted on.

Much like Rodon, the question for Kopech isn't stuff, it's health.  Kopech has the arm and stuff 100%.

Exactly. And to me, Kopech has more upside than Rodon as we stand today since he’s younger. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The irony here is that Rodon wasn't a 5 WAR guy going into last year either. In fact he had put up a little over 6 war in about 530 innings, working out to a 4.14 era and 4.26 whip at 28 years old.  Going into 2021 Rodon was the very definition of "unproven young talent ", "coming off of covid" and he still hasn't proven he can be counted on.

Much like Rodon, the question for Kopech isn't stuff, it's health.  Kopech has the arm and stuff 100%.

But unlike Rodon, Kopech hasn't already gone through the trials and tribulations that young starting pitchers so often do. He went trough the trials and tribulations in his personal life and health before he became a Starting pitcher in MLB. I'm not sure if you are implying that Rodon had Covid.

If you believe that Kopech can be a 5 WAR player this year and are happy about him and Keuchel ,V V, Cueto, Lopez in your stating rotation so be it. My bold prediction is those 5 together cannot equal the 5 WAR that Rodon produced last year.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

23 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Even the ever-positive Sox fans were somewhat sceptical about Kopech being one of five dark horse Cy Young candidates... clearly favoring Cease for that honor. 

I suppose their argument is more about that All-Star version of Rodon being unavailable in the postseason, but there are no guarantees Kopech will still retain his early summer stuff in September, either.  Not until he actually goes out and DOES it once. 

I prefer Kopech over Cease. TJS and the ensuing layoff set Kopech back but he’s a better pitcher than Cease and I don’t think he will melt down mentally in big situations like we have seen so many times in the past with Cease.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But unlike Rodon, Kopech hasn't already gone through the trials and tribulations that young starting pitchers so often do. He went trough the trials and tribulations in his personal life and health before he became a Starting pitcher in MLB. I'm not sure if you are implying that Rodon had Covid.

If you believe that Kopech can be a 5 WAR player this year and are happy about him and Keuchel ,V V, Cueto, Lopez in your stating rotation so be it. My bold prediction is those 5 together cannot equal the 5 WAR that Rodon produced last year.

It was Kopech relatively recently... don't believe Rodon ever had it. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But unlike Rodon, Kopech hasn't already gone through the trials and tribulations that young starting pitchers so often do. He went trough the trials and tribulations in his personal life and health before he became a Starting pitcher in MLB. I'm not sure if you are implying that Rodon had Covid.

If you believe that Kopech can be a 5 WAR player this year and are happy about him and Keuchel ,V V, Cueto, Lopez in your stating rotation so be it. My bold prediction is those 5 together cannot equal the 5 WAR that Rodon produced last year.

And they don’t need to. Why do they need to replicate Rodon’s regular season from last season for the team to be successful this season? Rodon sucked when the Sox needed him most at the end of the season. Even if Kopech is worse during the regular season but better than Rodon in the postseason (low bar I know), that’s a win.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

By definition, Kopech is quite literally Rodon’s replacement. Not sure how that is debatable? I already acknowledged that him producing an ERA below over 130 innings is uncertain but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he did. No one knows, just like no one knew Rodon would be a Cy Young candidate last season.

As for the rest of the rotation, who knows. And quite frankly, even if they are less productive in the regular season but pitch better in the postseason that’s what they need. Lynn, Rodon, and Cease were god awful in the postseason.

Is this definition in the dictionary ? Because I don't see it that way, that's how it's debatable. See me at the end of the year when he produces 5 WAR all by himself. Saying Rodon was God awful in the playoffs is disingenuous. We all knew he wasn't the same pitcher in the 2nd half as the 1st half but chances were he wasn't going to be able to pitch in the playoffs anyway because of his lack of innings the previous 2 years. Let's hope the Sox hierarchy is a little more careful with Kopech.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I prefer Kopech over Cease. TJS and the ensuing layoff set Kopech back but he’s a better pitcher than Cease and I don’t think he will melt down mentally in big situations like we have seen so many times in the past with Cease.

Same argument that was made this offseason consistently. 

Until Kopech puts up a 200+ strikeout season and finishes Top 10-15 in fWAR,  he will always be perceived as more potential and ceiling than reality. 

We don't have any reason to say he's a better pitcher because that requires at least three pitches for 90% of starters.  Kopech relied on just two, so, the off speed stuff will be the key test,  and reliably getting hitters to bite.  Rodon always had that slider to go to, the question is how will Kopech fare when he's behind in counts and a 97+ mph fastball will get whistled past his head at 103.  That continual evolution from thrower to pitcher that Cease is working through as well. 

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

But unlike Rodon, Kopech hasn't already gone through the trials and tribulations that young starting pitchers so often do. He went trough the trials and tribulations in his personal life and health before he became a Starting pitcher in MLB. I'm not sure if you are implying that Rodon had Covid.

If you believe that Kopech can be a 5 WAR player this year and are happy about him and Keuchel ,V V, Cueto, Lopez in your stating rotation so be it. My bold prediction is those 5 together cannot equal the 5 WAR that Rodon produced last year.

The fun part is I don't think either will bea  5 WAR player this year.