A's interested in Andrew Vaughn/Sox in Montas

[joejoesox]

47 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Reinsdorf will spend money in spurts, but he's very risk averse. They'll spend at the top of the market for relief pitchers and even Grandal as a catcher. Those are short term deals. Like the Keuchel contract. It's a contract that is going south on the White Sox, but it's a shorter 3 year deal and his risk is limited. He clearly favors deals like this. 

It's the total dollars and the length of the commitment. He has an out and can have a much lower payroll a couple years from now if he chooses. I think you understand and are just trying to argue or debate?

I agree with Jack. Until they go out and sign someone at the top of the market, or hell, even give one of their own home grown stars a massive 9 figure deal - the evidence is undeniable.

begs the question, the contract offers to Machado and Wheeler, what kind of opt outs were shoved in there that Reinsdorf demanded that probably soured the deal

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Richie said:

House analogy does not translate to begin with. There's no set amount of houses you "MUST" have. 

In baseball, there's a set amount of players on a big league roster. The amount you must carry during a given season is 26 (until September, obviously).

The White Sox have elected to spread out a chunk of money to fill a certain number of spots with "good" players. When they could have filled one of those holes with a great one. Spending more. They chose not to do that and settled for "good" free agents. 

Correct. But still spent the same amount of money. So should they have 2 super stars and the rest replacement level or do they spread it around and have a number of really good players but not the superstars?

Either way it s the same amount of money. Like I said I guess my definition of cheap is different.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Correct. But still spent the same amount of money. So should they have 2 super stars and the rest replacement level or do they spread it around and have a number of really good players but not the superstars?

Either way it s the same amount of money. Like I said I guess my definition of cheap is different.

Ever heard of penny wise but dollar foolish? That describes the Sox when it comes to spending on players. 

You have to have a good mix of quality and quantity. They continually spend on quantity rather than quality. B/C guys are ok for primary target; dumpster diving for everything else. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ever heard of penny wise but dollar foolish? That describes the Sox when it comes to spending on players. 

You have to have a good mix of quality and quantity. They continually spend on quantity rather than quality. B/C guys are ok for primary target; dumpster diving for everything else. 

I don't necessarily disagree but to me that's not being cheap as was the original point. These are different concepts of how to spend the money. But the amount of money is the amount of money.

[Sarava]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

I don't necessarily disagree but to me that's not being cheap as was the original point. These are different concepts of how to spend the money. But the amount of money is the amount of money.

The amount of money is 7th this year. He wont be 7th every year. We could drag up the Sox payroll rank over the last 20 years if someone wants to bother. It won't look pretty for a major market town like Chicago.

[ptatc]

Just now, Sarava said:

The amount of money is 7th this year. He wont be 7th every year. We could drag up the Sox payroll rank over the last 20 years if someone wants to bother. It won't look pretty for a major market town like Chicago.

Correct. If it drops to a certain level I would agree. I've maintained for years the problem with the FO was the limited budget from JR. I can't say that right now.

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

If you give your GM a budget 1 year out, he's cheap. It prevents long term investments which is cheap. It forces the front offices hands to spend on short term options that might have more questions. 

Arguing Jerry isn't cheap when he's the owner of one of four teams in baseball that have never given a 9 figure contract is silly. You can be cheap while also spending money. My wife buys $500 of stuff from Marshalls because she gets more option for her money. Those items are still cheap. 

And this is all about asset allocation.

When you spend $11MM to get Harrison and Leury, AND spend $16.5MM on 2 RPs, it means you don't have that ~$27MM for a larger piece. Or, if you don't have the imagination to structure a deal to make it work, as in Suzuki's deal [on $8MM this year], you miss out on useful pieces. Or, if you don't want to offer opt-outs, then much of the top of the FA market won't bother to check in.

This isn't about "not spending money," so much as its about spending money stupidly. No one can look at the 7th highest payroll in MLB, and call that organization "cheap."

But, every person who partakes of MLB can call the Kimbrel trade, the refusal of the Rodon QO, and many other choices they've made, "stupid." 

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

The JR is cheap narrative comes from the fact that the Grandal contract is the largest in team history. 

I'm critical of the team budget myself, but that's because they continually trade prospects when they should be spending money to fill holes. This is the peak year of the window. 

So Jerry is cheap on individual player contracts but willing to spend on total payroll. He is unwilling to pay up for premium talent. That's a fact. 

Most of the largest contracts in team history are for 1B, corner OF, Catcher or Closer and those aren't as expensive as other more important positions.

Jerry is cheap will not die until he gives out multiple 9 figure deals or at least one $200M deal.  

When you stupidly give up 2 league minimum pieces to get a closer you don't need, the fallout is that you CAN'T later pay up for larger contracts. This isn't about "not allowing RH to spend money, as The Kids Can Play stated. This is about making stupid choices over and over again. 

This team has a higher payroll than LAAA, Houston, Atlanta, SF, and Toronto. That ain't "cheap," by any measure.  LAAA has both the reigning MVP, and the best player any of us has seen play in its roster. Houston and Atlanta have been to the WS more recently than us. And SF and Toronto just could be every bit as good as our SOX, when you consider our lack of depth at crucial spots.

Edited April 15, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[CeaseAndExist]

6 hours ago, joesaiditstrue said:

begs the question, the contract offers to Machado and Wheeler, what kind of opt outs were shoved in there that Reinsdorf demanded that probably soured the deal

You have 6800+ posts on here and you dont know what they offered to both those guys?

It really does beg the question, how?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CeaseAndExist said:

You have 6800+ posts on here and you dont know what they offered to both those guys?

It really does beg the question, how?

Total dollars/years, not player favorable "opt outs"

[caulfield12]

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/kebryan-hayes-17648/cash-earnings/

Pirates ALMOST beat the Grandal deal, came up $3.5 million short. 

 

Quite interesting structure.

 

$10 million, $10 million, $7 million X 4 years, $8 million X 2 years, and $6 million in 2030...

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And this is all about asset allocation.

When you spend $11MM to get Harrison and Leury, AND spend $16.5MM on 2 RPs, it means you don't have that ~$27MM for a larger piece. Or, if you don't have the imagination to structure a deal to make it work, as in Suzuki's deal [on $8MM this year], you miss out on useful pieces. Or, if you don't want to offer opt-outs, then much of the top of the FA market won't bother to check in.

This isn't about "not spending money," so much as its about spending money stupidly. No one can look at the 7th highest payroll in MLB, and call that organization "cheap."

But, every person who partakes of MLB can call the Kimbrel trade, the refusal of the Rodon QO, and many other choices they've made, "stupid." 

When you stupidly give up 2 league minimum pieces to get a closer you don't need, the fallout is that you CAN'T later pay up for larger contracts. This isn't about "not allowing RH to spend money, as The Kids Can Play stated. This is about making stupid choices over and over again. 

This team has a higher payroll than LAAA, Houston, Atlanta, SF, and Toronto. That ain't "cheap," by any measure.  LAAA has both the reigning MVP, and the best player any of us has seen play in its roster. Houston and Atlanta have been to the WS more recently than us. And SF and Toronto just could be every bit as good as our SOX, when you consider our lack of depth at crucial spots.

Again, it's very possible the budget does not allow for big multi-year commitments. Not sure why you are choosing to ignore that point.

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Again, it's very possible the budget does not allow for big multi-year commitments. Not sure why you are choosing to ignore that point.

It certainly does if you subtract Keuchel or Harrison/Leury/VV/Kelly, etc.

It’s also possible our season ticket base didn’t expand like one would have projected after two consecutive playoff appearances.

We shouldn’t be behind the woeful Orioles after three similar weekday starts, regardless of the weather for the last two…Baltimore is having one of the most disheartening decades in franchise history.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Again, it's very possible the budget does not allow for big multi-year commitments. Not sure why you are choosing to ignore that point.

Well we ignore that point, because factually, a "budget" does not disallow multi-year commitments.

Otherwise, how could LAAAAAA, who have a cheaper payroll than our SOX, have a "big multi-year commitment" to Trout?

Edited April 15, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Well we ignore that point, because factually, a "budget" does not disallow multi-year commitments.

Otherwise, how could LAAAAAA, who have a cheaper payroll than our SOX, have “big multi-year commitments" to Trout, Rendon and Ohtani?

 

Edited April 15, 2022 by caulfield12

[gogosox1959]

There's also a big risk with LAA payroll structure.  The injury exposure is much higher than with a more spread out allocation.  Last year they lost Trout.  What if they have a year with two of them out.  The Sox survived with time lost for Robert, Eloy, and Grandal, (and some to TA).

[wrathofhahn]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:09 PM, chw42 said:

Bummer has way more years of control and you can probably argue he is the same caliber reliever that Rogers is. Sheets is also more valuable than Rooker. 

I have no idea why we didn't do the deal.

It seems like what the Padres got and what we could have offered up natched perfectly I think the Twins massively underpaid. I would have been more than happy to do the same deal with Sheets and Bummer

Edited April 15, 2022 by wrathofhahn

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

I have no idea why we didn't do the deal.

It seems like what the Padres got and what we could have offered up natched perfectly I think the Twins massively underpaid. I would have been more than happy to do the same deal with Sheets and Bummer

It’s not an underpay if Paddack sucks, yet becomes increasingly expensive.  They feel they can improve his offspeed offerings.  Time will tell, but Pagan is nothing special and isn’t close to the same level of effectiveness he maintained with TB.

If you don’t have a trustworthy closer, things can fall apart quickly…and start to cascade over to the entire pen.

[The Kids Can Play]

On 4/14/2022 at 12:47 PM, Two-Gun Pete said:

OK, this line of thinking needs to die a quick death. HERE IS A LINK for you to study whether or not JR lets "Hahn spend money" or not.

 

Here, I'll help you: The Chicago White Sox DO spend money. They have the 7th-highest payroll in MLB. It is NOT a question of spending money.

 

It is a question of whether or not those imbeciles in the FO are spending wisely or not. In my view, they spend, but they spend stupidly.

THIS LINK will show you how they spend. When a team asset allocates as they've chosen to do, that team will have holes elsewhere.

 

So again, the whole "JR is cheap" bullshit needs to die in a fire.

This line of thinking is accurate and does not need to die in a fire. Yes, the Sox are 7th in payroll. However it's not nearly as high as other teams. The Sox are behind 6th - Boston, 5th - San Diego and 4th - Philadelphia., not to mention Most importantly per the new MLB CBA, the Sox are under the first level CBT Threshold of 230 million. The reason the CBT was increased so the owners could spend more money to build a competitive team. Like the old adage "you have to send money to make money" which applies here. If Reinsdorf spent the money for another one or two quality starters, then the team would be in a better position to win now. As know, the window for the Sox winning a WS is now. This team with the right additional parts can win a World Series now. If Reinsdorf spent the money now, then the team would potentially win more and be a more competitive team. With a better team on the field, the attendance would increase substantially and Reinsdorf would make up for the higher payroll, through the higher attendance, merchandise sales, food and liquor at the park. The Mets owner already said he is probably going over the top threshold CBT level of 290 million. I guess Steve Cohen wants to win. So yes, JR is cheap compared to several other owners, especially some in smaller markets than Chicago. 

I do agree with you they spent some of the money poorly, but having said that, when you are this close to winning a WS, then unfortunately he needs to spend more money to make up for some of those bad contracts.  

[poppysox]

On 4/14/2022 at 5:56 PM, ptatc said:

I guess I understand what you are saying but dont understand the concept. To me cheap means you aren't spending the money.  187 million is 187 million no matter if you have 10 really good players or 1 superstar and 9 ok players.

So it's not a matter of being cheap as much as it is how to allocate the money.

JR spends 187 million and is considered cheap.  Give 1 player a 35M per year deal for 3 years and surround him with  25 guys making 1 M per year...JR is no longer a cheap SOB.  My bet is JR doesn't much care what we think.  This stuff is probably amusing to him.

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, poppysox said:

JR spends 187 million and is considered cheap.  Give 1 player a 35M per year deal for 3 years and surround him with  25 guys making 1 M per year...JR is no longer a cheap SOB.  My bet is JR doesn't much care what we think.  This stuff is probably amusing to him.

Not being cheap is doing both. Spending 200M on Payroll AND spending on top talent. 

Giolito not being re-signed yet is also cheap. 

Edited April 15, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not being cheap is doing both. Spending 200M on Payroll AND spending on top talent. 

Giolito not being re-signed yet is also cheap. 

I agree to disagree.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not being cheap is doing both. Spending 200M on Payroll AND spending on top talent. 

Giolito not being re-signed yet is also cheap. 

Are you sure they've even had discussions for a new contract?

I realize you hate anyone with money but you are making far too many biased assumptions.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, ptatc said:

Are you sure they've even had discussions for a new contract?

I realize you hate anyone with money but you are making far too many biased assumptions.

Yes, this was recently in the news about the Giolito extension offer and likely why it was rejected.  The same week they were in arbitration over $50k.

[ron883]

Burger is putting himself on the map. Dude keeps raking and he could be a big piece in a trade for a starter. 

[caulfield12]

9 hours ago, poppysox said:

JR spends 187 million and is considered cheap.  Give 1 player a 35M per year deal for 3 years and surround him with  25 guys making 1 M per year...JR is no longer a cheap SOB.  My bet is JR doesn't much care what we think.  This stuff is probably amusing to him.

This pretty much sounds like the Twins with Correa, Buxton and Polanco.