Are you in favor of Moncada to 2B?

[Harold's Leg Lift]

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And there it is. The all-purpose phrase that comes up in most threads.

Where do you see, "hate for Moncada?" Specifically, WHO on these boards, in your view, "hates Moncada?"

 

I gotta admit, I don't see anyone who "hates Moncada," but that phrase gets thrown around here like a cheap $5 whore.

If you don't like a player as much as someone else you're a "hater" and if you like a player more than someone else you're a "stan."  This place is very weird about ths.  

[Two-Gun Pete]

23 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

 

Should have clarified what specifically I was referring to here.  I don't think discussions positional versatility are bad at all, though I would like to see Burger have sustained success beyond 60 career PA's before we start talking about moving people around the diamond.

OK, so here's a crazy idea:

Instead of devloving into an intellectually-lazy trope about "hating," ya coulda, ya know, just posted what you posted here?

That aside, sure, we'd all like Burger to have more success before drawing any conclusions. But here's an even better idea:

That the White Sox org EMBRACE versatility, instead of sticking with "one man/one spot." And if that means that you try Moncada at 2B or LF or RF instead of giving Leury 500 PAs, or giving Sheets ~60 starts in the OF, or Vaughn ~60 starts in the OF, fucking AWESOME! IMO, that would mean that those bozos in the FO would have actually learned something for a change.

15 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Just as no one hates Burger yet someone tried calling out the "Burger haters" the other day after he hit a homer.

I know. I had too much going on to post, but that one was obvious.

And I'll even admit, I didn't much care for the way the young man took care of himself, but maybe that's because Getz sucks at his job, and he let Burger try to eat his way out of baseball. That still ain't "hating Burger," so much as it is "hating the SOX FO." 

9 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

If you don't like a player as much as someone else you're a "hater" and if you like a player more than someone else you're a "stan."  This place is very weird about ths.  

Yeah, its a never-ending cycle. Rinse, and repeat.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

Here's the thing.  You have a gold glove level 3B defensively in Yoan Moncada.  Why would you weaken two positions defensively, when you could just weaken 1 by using Burger at 2B if he can handle it?  Yoan was a pretty crappy 2B when he played there.  Maybe it has been so long that people forgot about it?

[Two-Gun Pete]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Here's the thing.  You have a gold glove level 3B defensively in Yoan Moncada.  Why would you weaken two positions defensively, when you could just weaken 1 by using Burger at 2B if he can handle it?  Yoan was a pretty crappy 2B when he played there.  Maybe it has been so long that people forgot about it?

To be fair, Moncada was 3rd in the AL in DRS and UZR among 3rd basemen. So really, "good, but not GG." Also, how much of his struggles at 2B was Moncada maturing [remember him shoveling Twinkies down his hole as a rookie], and how much was it him having to adjust to MLB and life in Chicago?

 

I think we're overestimating Moncada at 3rd a bit, and underestimating what he could be at other positions. I'd be open to him moving around the diamond, Kris Bryant-style. At least TRY it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Every 2nd baseman seems to struggle at 1st. Madrigal took a lot of grief for his base running and fielding but they improved in his injury shortened yr. in 2021 to where he was a positive in both. The whole right side is harder to play then the left side since RH hitters going oppo put more spin on the balls going that way since RH batters are much more prevalent than LH batters who hit the ball on the ground to the left side.

[southsider2k5]

23 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

To be fair, Moncada was 3rd in the AL in DRS and UZR among 3rd basemen. So really, "good, but not GG." Also, how much of his struggles at 2B was Moncada maturing [remember him shoveling Twinkies down his hole as a rookie], and how much was it him having to adjust to MLB and life in Chicago?

 

I think we're overestimating Moncada at 3rd a bit, and underestimating what he could be at other positions. I'd be open to him moving around the diamond, Kris Bryant-style. At least TRY it.

3rd best would put him in the finals for a gold glove, which is more than enough to call it gold glove calibur if you want to insist in splitting insignificant hairs.

[SoxBlanco]

50 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

If you don't like a player as much as someone else you're a "hater" and if you like a player more than someone else you're a "stan."  This place is very weird about ths.  

What is a person called if they don’t like a player and they make sure to post about it incessantly to drive the point home?

Hypothetically, of course. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

3rd best would put him in the finals for a gold glove, which is more than enough to call it gold glove calibur if you want to insist in splitting insignificant hairs.

I don't disagree.

But my interest as a fan is for the team as a WHOLE to get better, not so much for individual players to get their own recognition.

 

If Moncada moving around the diamond makes the team as a WHOLE better and more versatile, then I'll take that 11 times out of 10. Given what The Athletic wrote about versatility recently, I'm inclined to believe that a versatile Moncada >>>>>>>> a GG Moncada at 3rd and ONLY 3rd.

[southsider2k5]

43 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I don't disagree.

But my interest as a fan is for the team as a WHOLE to get better, not so much for individual players to get their own recognition.

 

If Moncada moving around the diamond makes the team as a WHOLE better and more versatile, then I'll take that 11 times out of 10. Given what The Athletic wrote about versatility recently, I'm inclined to believe that a versatile Moncada >>>>>>>> a GG Moncada at 3rd and ONLY 3rd.

So why is weakening multiple positions making the team better?  We saw he was a pretty mediocre 2B, and Boston didn't think enough of him to leave him at SS.  The Sox didn't think enough of him at SS to play him there even before running into TA, or enough to move TA off of SS for him.

[Two-Gun Pete]

40 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So why is weakening multiple positions making the team better?  We saw he was a pretty mediocre 2B, and Boston didn't think enough of him to leave him at SS.  The Sox didn't think enough of him at SS to play him there even before running into TA, or enough to move TA off of SS for him.

I understand your concern.

But meanwhile, the 35 year old "High Energy" Josh Harrison and "versatile" Leury Garcia have predictably combined to give you -0.6 fWAR. Not over an entire season, just in the 9 games this team has played. Already.

 

Comparing who Moncada WAS, an immature rookie 2B, to what Moncada is TODAY isn't all that cogent, TBH. 

Warts and all, I'd be willing to bet that Moncada would provide more fWAR than "High Energy" and "Versatile" combined. Sooner or later, Harrison will be DFA'ed, and Leury will have to cover for some other injury elsewhere.

 

Moncada presents to this org the opportunity to produce what ALL the top orgs have:

A player who is both good at baseball, AND versatile. [Imagine that?]

Edited April 19, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[RibbieRubarb]

On 4/16/2022 at 10:11 PM, ron883 said:

I know this is similar to the other thread, but i want to get a gauge on what the board thinks. Would you be in favor of moving Yoan to 2B and starting Burger at 3B? It would be a boost to the offense, without question. The infield defense would likely suffer a little. Jake looks at least average at 3B. Yoan is not as good as Harrison at 2B. Let's see how the poll shakes out.

Put down MLBTheShow...

Come to reality

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I understand your concern.

But meanwhile, the 35 year old "High Energy" Josh Harrison and "versatile" Leury Garcia have predictably combined to give you -0.6 fWAR. Already.

 

Comparing who Moncada WAS, an immature rookie 2B, to what Moncada is TODAY isn't all that cogent, TBH. 

Warts and all, I'd be willing to bet that Moncada would provide more fWAR than "High Energy" and "Versatile" combined. Sooner or later, Harrison will be DFA'ed, and Leury will have to cover for some other injury elsewhere.

 

Moncada presents to this org the opportunity to produce what ALL the top orgs have:

A player who is both good at baseball, AND versatile.

I haven't seen anything to tell me that he is versatile other than thoughts and prayers.  Two organizations didn't think enough of his work at SS to play him there.  His work at 2B was bad enough that they were willing to try him at 3B.  I am also not seeing his ever playing anything other than 3B and 2B in the minors with either Sox franchise.

Just because the Sox screwed up the off-season at 2B, there is no reason to shoot ourselves in the foot at 3rd.  We have a very good 3B there for the first time in a decade and a half.

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I haven't seen anything to tell me that he is versatile other than thoughts and prayers.  Two organizations didn't think enough of his work at SS to play him there.  His work at 2B was bad enough that they were willing to try him at 3B.  I am also not seeing his ever playing anything other than 3B and 2B in the minors with either Sox franchise.

 Just because the Sox screwed up the off-season at 2B, there is no reason to shoot ourselves in the foot at 3rd.  We have a very good 3B there for the first time in a decade and a half.

The same thing could have been said about Kris Bryant before they moved him around the field. Bryant never played anywhere but 3rd in MiLB.

I agree that I wouldn't want to play Moncada at SS. I'd have him primarily play 3B, but I'd rather have him at 2B than the turds that are there. I'd rather have him try a corner OF, than watch Eloy/Sheets/Vaughn and their athletic limitations.

 

The issue with 2B is the issue with a stars-and-scrubs roster: Moncada's great, but the negative fWAR shat upon the field by Harrison/Leury also actively hurts this team. The issue with the OF corners is that this roster doesn't really have any good ones, unless you really believe that grandpa Pollock's hamstrings will remain intact. [We've got a fair amount of DHs out in the OF corners, tho.]

Edited April 19, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

20 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

The same thing could have been said about Kris Bryant before they moved him around the field. Bryant never played anywhere but 3rd in MiLB.

I agree that I wouldn't want to play Moncada at SS. I'd have him primarily play 3B, but I'd rather have him at 2B than the turds that are there. I'd rather have him try a corner OF, than watch Eloy/Sheets/Vaughn and their athletic limitations.

 

The issue with 2B is the issue with a stars-and-scrubs roster: Moncada's great, but the negative fWAR shat upon the field by Harrison/Leury also actively hurts this team. The issue with the OF corners is that this roster doesn't really have any good ones, unless you really believe that grandpa Pollock's hamstrings will remain intact. [We've got a fair amount of DHs out in the OF corners, tho.]

And apparently you would rather watch Jake Burger with his athletic limitations at 3B, plus hope that his legs stay intact, despite missing three years of baseball because they didn't. 

This isn't very linear, as literally every argument for this, has the exact same arguments against it.

If you are only looking at fWAR, put Burger over there and only defensively hobble one position, instead of multiple ones.

[MackowiakYakYak]

30 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

The same thing could have been said about Kris Bryant before they moved him around the field. Bryant never played anywhere but 3rd in MiLB.

I agree that I wouldn't want to play Moncada at SS. I'd have him primarily play 3B, but I'd rather have him at 2B than the turds that are there. I'd rather have him try a corner OF, than watch Eloy/Sheets/Vaughn and their athletic limitations.

 

The issue with 2B is the issue with a stars-and-scrubs roster: Moncada's great, but the negative fWAR shat upon the field by Harrison/Leury also actively hurts this team. The issue with the OF corners is that this roster doesn't really have any good ones, unless you really believe that grandpa Pollock's hamstrings will remain intact. [We've got a fair amount of DHs out in the OF corners, tho.]

Bryant also became a mediocre defender at 3rd before he started getting moved around. You don’t see the top tier defensive 3Bs being moved out of position all that often. You really don’t see any great defenders moved out of their main position because great defense is rare and incredibly valuable. Peak Eaton wasn’t much more valuable because he could also pass as a center fielder. You want to set up great defenders so you don’t have to move them.

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, MackowiakYakYak said:

Bryant also became a mediocre defender at 3rd before he started getting moved around. You don’t see the top tier defensive 3Bs being moved out of position all that often. You really don’t see any great defenders moved out of their main position because great defense is rare and incredibly valuable. Peak Eaton wasn’t much more valuable because he could also pass as a center fielder. You want to set up great defenders so you don’t have to move them.

Not to mention, defense isn’t exactly a plus on this team. Weakening the team further in that regard is silly when it’s not necessary. Cart is also so far ahead of the horse on Burger. I like him as much as the next guy, and I’m open to at least letting him take some reps at 2B when Moncada comes back. I doubt it’ll be pretty, but it’s worth a try if he’s still hitting. But Moncada still isn’t moving off 3B. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

47 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If you are only looking at fWAR, put Burger over there and only defensively hobble one position, instead of multiple ones.

To that I say that middle IF defense is more important than the corners. I think that Moncada is better than Burger at defense, regardless of position. Hell, he's probably better at defense than Eloy, Sheets, and Vaughn are as well.

Burger is more likely to shred his ankle again trying to make the turn at 2nd than he is playing 3rd. The athletic requirements at the corners is lower.

23 minutes ago, MackowiakYakYak said:

Bryant also became a mediocre defender at 3rd before he started getting moved around. You don’t see the top tier defensive 3Bs being moved out of position all that often.

Because he started having back injuries.

Agreed that most 3B don't get moved around, but most aren't as athletic as Moncada is, either.

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

To that I say that middle IF defense is more important than the corners. I think that Moncada is better than Burger at defense, regardless of position. Hell, he's probably better at defense than Eloy, Sheets, and Vaughn are as well.

Burger is more likely to shred his ankle again trying to make the turn at 2nd than he is playing 3rd. The athletic requirements at the corners is lower.

Because he started having back injuries.

Agreed that most 3B don't get moved around, but most aren't as athletic as Moncada is, either.

And Moncada is more likely to get hurt running around the OF or plowed at  turn at 2nd.  Again this is circular.

[greg775]

He's great at third. Leave him there. Might have to trade Burger/Vaughn if no room for them.

[oldsox]

43 minutes ago, greg775 said:

He's great at third. Leave him there. Might have to trade Burger/Vaughn if no room for them.

Brooks Robinson was great.  Mike Schmitt was great.  Clete Boyer was great.  Nolan Arenado is great.  Robin Ventura was pretty good.  Sammy Esposito was decent.

`Cmon, man.

Edited April 19, 2022 by oldsox

[MackowiakYakYak]

15 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Brooks Robinson was great.  Mike Schmitt was great.  Clete Boyer was great.  Nolan Arenado is great.  Robin Ventura was pretty good.  Sammy Esposito was decent.

`Cmon, man.

Great among MLBers in a given year is what people typically mean. I think you’re looking for all-time great with your list.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, MackowiakYakYak said:

Great among MLBers in a given year is what people typically mean. I think you’re looking for all-time great with your list.

Moncada is a great third baseman. I didn't mean to compare him to Hall of Famers. But Moncada is pretty damn amazing with the glove at 3B. Pretty good hitter too. I think he's so good you don't mess with him at all now that he's comfy at 3B. You work around that and that will mean Sox probably need to trade Burger or make him full time DH and trade Vaughn. I like Burger and Vaughn too.

[Eminor3rd]

It's April 19th.

[hi8is]

26 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

It's April 19th.

Right…. But Ron wants to know if you would like to move Moncada off his position. I’m so enthralled.

[ron883]

8 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

If you don't like a player as much as someone else you're a "hater" and if you like a player more than someone else you're a "stan."  This place is very weird about ths.  

Have people been poking fun at you about Kelenic again, Harold? Use the report button on them.