At what point does Hahn "blow it up"?

[Quin]

12 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Well, I appreciate you [indirectly] agreeing with me. But why don't you direct your IRE at the FO [where it rightly belongs], instead of at me?

Any of us could have seen that TLR needed to accept supervision, or to accept assistance with managing the team. And any one of us could have seen that spending money in FA this offseason was and is vastly superior to them overspending on RPs, then having to reactively try to save the day by trading the last bits of value in the system later.

And yes, I agree with YOU that the more VV and Keuchel shit their pants, the more likely it is that RH makes a desperation move that he DIDN'T need to make if he acted proactively.

Because what do you want me to do for the remaining ~150 games? Go "ah fuck they didn't sign/offer a QO to Rodon (the dumbest non-move by any single team this offseason), might as well be angry about the most talented Sox team I've seen in my fucking life" and be angry until October? Should I still be mad that GarPax didn't trade Deng and missed out on a fucking dynasty?

Nah, I want to talk about them possibly improving. Like I said, Hahn's reactionary. We know they've talked Montas, who knows if they end up acquiring a starter or not. 

The reason I said I like you more than others is because buried in the typographical shouting, you make intelligent points, but lordy I'd love for there to just be discussion amidst the anger (not just you, in general) instead of "no, go straight to November while mainlining rage-heroin."

[southsider2k5]

By "it" do you mean Leury Garcia?  It's harsh, but I am listening.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Quin said:

Because what do you want me to do for the remaining ~150 games? Go "ah fuck they didn't sign/offer a QO to Rodon (the dumbest non-move by any single team this offseason), might as well be angry about the most talented Sox team I've seen in my fucking life" and be angry until October? Should I still be mad that GarPax didn't trade Deng and missed out on a fucking dynasty?

Nah, I want to talk about them possibly improving. Like I said, Hahn's reactionary. We know they've talked Montas, who knows if they end up acquiring a starter or not. 

The reason I said I like you more than others is because buried in the typographical shouting, you make intelligent points, but lordy I'd love for there to just be discussion amidst the anger (not just you, in general) instead of "no, go straight to November while mainlining rage-heroin."

That's exactly what he wants, because that is his go to move.  It's his Leury in the 3 hole move, if you will.

[Two-Gun Pete]

12 minutes ago, Quin said:

Because what do you want me to do for the remaining ~150 games? Go "ah fuck they didn't sign/offer a QO to Rodon (the dumbest non-move by any single team this offseason), might as well be angry about the most talented Sox team I've seen in my fucking life" and be angry until October? Should I still be mad that GarPax didn't trade Deng and missed out on a fucking dynasty?

Nah, I want to talk about them possibly improving. Like I said, Hahn's reactionary. We know they've talked Montas, who knows if they end up acquiring a starter or not. 

The reason I said I like you more than others is because buried in the typographical shouting, you make intelligent points, but lordy I'd love for there to just be discussion amidst the anger (not just you, in general) instead of "no, go straight to November while mainlining rage-heroin."

Yes, you SHOULD hold this organization accountable. It is YOUR right to verbalize displeasure, but it is also YOUR responsibility to give them the proper feedback and [Gunny Hartman] "the proper motivation" to get their heads and asses wired together correctly. Otherwise, this org would become a profitable Washington Generals, if JR had his way:

In second place, and in the black on his PNL statement every single year.

 

And yes, you should have wanted GarPax to trade Deng, and you should have been irritated that there was no real reason for that move to not happen, and for those two to have been in charge. Once they [rightly] moved on, THEN you can let them off the hook.

Similarly, once KW/RH, Getz, Hostetler, and basically everyone not named "Marco Paddy" are rightly terminated, I will also let them off the hook. I promise.

But letting them off the hook for even a heartbeat BEFORE then is a quick road to loserdom, because they've committed several fireable offenses both this offseason, and over their tenures. 

 

That said, you wanted to talk about how they could possibly improve?  I'm game.

[Quin]

7 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

That said, you wanted to talk about how they could possibly improve?  I'm game.

And that's the purpose of this - clearly moves need to be made to get TLR's head out of his ass and stabilize the lineup. We know Hahn is still going to be the GM.

But do we think it's going to be May? June? We know that everyone in the org other than TLR loves Vaughn and is probably banging their heads on desks about this platoon nonsense.

[Two-Gun Pete]

16 minutes ago, Quin said:

And that's the purpose of this - clearly moves need to be made to get TLR's head out of his ass and stabilize the lineup. We know Hahn is still going to be the GM.

But do we think it's going to be May? June? We know that everyone in the org other than TLR loves Vaughn and is probably banging their heads on desks about this platoon nonsense.

And I agree with all of this. But let me ask you:

 

If we as a fandom act like obedient lackeys, and give those assholes in the FO a free pass, scrubs fans-style from 1970 - 2015, do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that anything will change? Or do you think JR will simply be happy counting his money?

 

For me, I believe that we should put those clowns on notice basically everywhere and every way possible. Because they've shat themselves over and over again.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

And I agree with all of this. But let me ask you this:

 

If we as a fandom act like obedient lackeys, and give those assholes in the FO a free pass, scrubs fans-style from 1970 - 2015, do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that anything will change? Or do you think JR will simply be happy counting his money?

 

For me, I believe that we should put those clowns on notice basically everywhere and every way possible. Because they've shat themselves over and over again.

So for the record there is a WORLD of distance between your stoopid extremes.  You can be somewhere between an "obedient lacky" and spending every waking second crying and upset about something you can't control.

You REALLY want to hurt the team?  Desert them.  Quit watching, listening, posting, tweeting, and everything else to do with them.  The opposite of obedient lackey isn't perpetual anger, it is apathy.  It is not caring.  All you showing up daily shows this franchise is that they still own you.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

49 minutes ago, Quin said:

Because what do you want me to do for the remaining ~150 games? Go "ah fuck they didn't sign/offer a QO to Rodon (the dumbest non-move by any single team this offseason), might as well be angry about the most talented Sox team I've seen in my fucking life" and be angry until October? Should I still be mad that GarPax didn't trade Deng and missed out on a fucking dynasty?

Nah, I want to talk about them possibly improving. Like I said, Hahn's reactionary. We know they've talked Montas, who knows if they end up acquiring a starter or not. 

The reason I said I like you more than others is because buried in the typographical shouting, you make intelligent points, but lordy I'd love for there to just be discussion amidst the anger (not just you, in general) instead of "no, go straight to November while mainlining rage-heroin."

Hahn's reactionary moves  do not necessarily improve the team but you can always hope that he can manage it without trading Montgomery or Ramos. Usually it's just Tony said more relief pitching because JR said let's just ignore lefthandedness and starting pitching and just fill in with scrubs like we did in the rebuild 

[Two-Gun Pete]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So for the record there is a WORLD of distance between your stoopid extremes.  You can be somewhere between an "obedient lacky" and spending every waking second crying and upset about something you can't control.

You REALLY want to hurt the team?  Desert them.  Quit watching, listening, posting, tweeting, and everything else to do with them.  The opposite of obedient lackey isn't perpetual anger, it is apathy.  It is not caring.  All you showing up daily shows this franchise is that they still own you.

And Quin brought up a cogent point, WRT GarPax.

Prior to them stepping down, pretty much everyone I know who are/were Bulls fans wanted them gone. They didn't waste their time "whining" and "crying" about their fellow fans who rightly criticized GarPax and the Reinsdorfs. Even scrubs fans who are also Bulls fans criticized them, and were stunned at how incompetently the Bulls were run.

And now, look how far they've come, without having impossible draft lottery luck. Smarter FO decisions lead to a sea-change in fortunes for the Bulls, not bitching about the fans that rightly criticized them.

 

And I think there are lessons for the SOX and their fans from the Bulls and their fans. We as SOX fans SHOULD criticize the hell out of the FO, until they do better. And yes, with better FO decision-making, this org could rule like tyrants over the ALC, and regularly challenge for pennants and WS. But bitching about your fellow SOX fans is pretty useless.

No true fan wants to "hurt" the team they love. True fans just deserve better than we've been given.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

And Quin brought up a cogent point, WRT GarPax.

Prior to them stepping down, pretty much everyone I know who are/were Bulls fans wanted them gone. They didn't waste their time "whining" and "crying" about their fellow fans who rightly criticized GarPax and the Reinsdorfs. Even scrubs fans who are also Bulls fans criticized them, and were stunned at how incompetently the Bulls were run.

And now, look how far they've come, without having impossible draft lottery luck. Smarter FO decisions lead to a sea-change in fortunes for the Bulls, not bitching about the fans that rightly criticized them.

 

And I think there are lessons from the Bulls and their fans. We as fans SHOULD criticize the hell out of the FO, until they get launched. And yes, with better FO decision-making, this org could rule like tyrants over the ALC, and regularly challenge for pennants and WS. But bitching about your fellow SOX fans is pretty useless.

Wait, you think that the bitching got them fired, and not the gradual emptying of the United Center?  LMAO.  Now that is hilarious.  If the Reinsdorf decades have shown us ANYTHING, it is that they really don't care how upset people like you are, as long as you keep engaged.  It takes a loss of that engagement to force a change.  It's cute that you think trolling social media somehow forced Jerry's hands.

[Two-Gun Pete]

10 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Wait, you think that the bitching got them fired, and not the gradual emptying of the United Center?  LMAO.  Now that is hilarious.  If the Reinsdorf decades have shown us ANYTHING, it is that they really don't care how upset people like you are, as long as you keep engaged.  It takes a loss of that engagement to force a change.  It's cute that you think trolling social media somehow forced Jerry's hands.

And its cute that you think that 1 measly season out of the top 10 in attendance over the past decade had anything to do with GarPax being canned.

 

The "Fire GarPax" chants at the All Star Game, the billboard, and in every other way fans provided the proper feedback had nothing to do with it, amirite?

 

Instead, according to you, Bulls fans should have criticized their fellow fans, just like some do here. Got it.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Two-Gun Pete said:

And its cute that you think that 1 measly season out of the top 10 in attendance over the past decade had anything to do with GarPax being canned.

 

The "Fire GarPax" chants at the All Star Game, the billboard, and in every other way fans provided the proper feedback had nothing to do with it, amirite?

 

Instead, according to you, Bulls fans should have criticized their fellow fans, just like some do here. Got it.

By your logic, you should now quit posting, right?  All that criticism is just so tough to handle.  And you shouldn't be criticizing me for pointing out your stoopid posting, because all I want is for the best for Soxtalk.

And round and round Pete's logic goes.

[Tnetennba]

3 hours ago, Quin said:

I don't mean trade off the stars for prospects, White Flag 2.0.

I'm talking about moves that force TLR's hand - trading Sheets to get Vaughn out of the platoon, DFAing/bullpenning Keuchel and acquiring a starter (probably same move), anything that gets Leury out of the #3 hole, etc.

I know we're only 11 games in, but after last season and a constantly-reminded-of Hall of Fame career, we know TLR isn't changing his stripes.

I don't know if Hahn's hands are tied, or if he's just on board because he knows not to rock the boat.  I'd love to see him be proactive with some of these things, but he had an offseason to address their issues and here we are.

[Quin]

In lieu of Robert's injury, I'd like to take the Parkman route and revise this to actually blowing it up.

[GradMc]

7 hours ago, NWINFan said:

I am not at the point of blowing anything up. But if this team disappoints this season, there should be changes in field and office management. LaRussa would have to go and other changes should be made. I just don't know if JR is engaged enough or wants to make any changes. Regardless, it's time for Hahn, KW, and LaRussa to leave. The team needs new leadership and new blood.

None of the above gets done under that ownership group.

[ChiSox59]

4 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

I don't know if Hahn's hands are tied, or if he's just on board because he knows not to rock the boat.  I'd love to see him be proactive with some of these things, but he had an offseason to address their issues and here we are.

To be fair, a lot of these issues wouldn’t be present if the team was healthy. But hard to expect this my group of guys to stay healthy. Frankly can say that about any team, but still holds true. 

TLR is just so dislikable. And then you add on that he manages like he’s just making shit up as he goes with no rhyme or reason and the consensus is pretty strong against his moves….it’s just so frustrating. 

[NWINFan]

47 minutes ago, GradMc said:

None of the above gets done under that ownership group.

You are no doubt right about that. We fans have been hoping for some kind of change for years, and we have been hoping in vain. Change still needs to happen.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, NWINFan said:

You are no doubt right about that. We fans have been hoping for some kind of change for years, and we have been hoping in vain. Change still needs to happen.

But we are regressing a wrong done to TLR from the mid 80s.

(Good thing Harrelson isn't still broadcasting.)

[NWINFan]

20 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But we are regressing a wrong done to TLR from the mid 80s.

(Good thing Harrelson isn't still broadcasting.)

Exactly my point.

[ron883]

3 hours ago, Quin said:

In lieu of Robert's injury, I'd like to take the Parkman route and revise this to actually blowing it up.

I've said it before. We've got so many guys on reasonable contracts. If the Sox would do a "2nd generation rebuild" and start trading the studs they got from the first rebuild, the return would be unprecedented. They may be able to put together the greatest farm system ever. I'd be on board. 

[Jack Parkman]

My overwhelming negativity is just me trying to convince myself that they were never good enough rather than they're just fucking up..........it's easier to cope with that way. Deep down I know they're fucking up. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[ron883]

51 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

My overwhelming negativity is just me trying to convince myself that they were never good enough rather than they're just fucking up..........it's easier to cope with that way. Deep down I know they're fucking up. 

If they spent on a SP and lefty instead of blowing their load on utility bats and relievers, they'd definitely be up there with the Dodgers IMO

[GreenSox]

11 hours ago, Quin said:

I don't mean trade off the stars for prospects, White Flag 2.0.

Hahn (and Haber) need to be dumped long before any star is traded off.
 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Exactly my point.

Should have written redressing....but we are ALSO regressing, seemingly.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, ron883 said:

If they spent on a SP and lefty instead of blowing their load on utility bats and relievers, they'd definitely be up there with the Dodgers IMO

Sure, if everyone's healthy...IF IF IF and performing up to expectations.

But think about your suggested trades.

Anderson and Giolito would be the two most obvious, and get you outstanding returns (although not like Sale/Q/Eaton in all likelihood)...Kimbrel, Pollock, Abreu, Grandal, Moncada, Jimenez, Bummer would be in that next group to be dealt.  Returns would vary...but Moncada's future contract would scare away some of the small and medium market teams.

So then you're rebuilding/retooling around Robert, Cease, Kopech and Vaughn???

 

While that might be good enough to win the AL Central, you're going to push off having a championship-caliber team by at least 3-4 years when Sox fans have been patiently waiting a decade plus.

It's pretty much the situation the Cubs are in now, with their remaining cornerstone guys being Contreras (catchers fade fast though), Hendricks and now Suzuki.  But they're likely a .500ish ballclub even with the Pirates and Reds in the same division.

 

So you get MORE MIRED IN MEDIOCRITY.

AND NO WAY IN HELL HAHN GETS TO MAKE THOSE TRADES AFTER FAILING TWICE ALREADY.