What The Actual F# Is Wrong With This Team?

[Tnetennba]

10 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

Sure. I like McGuire and Collins was a drag on the roster. Still interesting to see him slotted cleanup on that team.

Jays org might know a little something about hitting instruction too.  I wouldn't' be surprised if they turned Zack into a useful part time DH bat.

[bmags]

fans are always made fun of for the emotional appeals to stuff like this but it sure has felt all rebuild like this org's M.O. was it was all about winning* up to a certain point... while other orgs seem deadset on winning at all cost in their windows. And it feels like that has carried down to the players.

In the front office, if the way we do things is not aligned with how the best in the league are doing it...well that's okay. Just do your best with how we operate. No shame in that.

And so on the field, if what is holding you back would require changing how you go about your game? That's fine. Maybe the opponents will change. You are a white sox, and that means trying to be as successful as you can within your own self-created limitations, but never, ever changing those.

It's okay guys. You aren't wrong for swinging at the 12th straight slider out of the zone. It's the pitchers who are wrong for not giving you a fastball.

[FoxForce2]

5 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

Jays org might know a little something about hitting instruction too.  I wouldn't' be surprised if they turned Zack into a useful part time DH bat.

This. Since his day as a draft choice, the memo pad entry on Collins has been - some bat potential but not really a major league catcher. I guess he had the character to try to become a catcher, it just didn't work out. But somewhere in his time with the Sox, his bat skills lagged resulting in underperformance in his area of best talent. An indictment of the Sox development process? That would be a deep dive and not something I'm ready to get into in any great detail. One thing I would say about it, I'm not too crazy about the Sox insistence on putting all their eggs into so-called 'Major League Ready' baskets. I still get the sense that AV is still in OJT mode. Do the best programs really do business this way? Do they really mistrust their own farm systems to this extent? 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Hahn didn't add an impact starter or an imapact bat this off season, he didn't improve the defense and didn't add depth.  There was years of bad drafting and he fired the best medical staff in MLB.  All of Rick Hahn's chickens are coming home to roost. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Hahn didn't add an impact starter or an imapact bat this off season, he didn't improve the defense and didn't add depth.  There was years of bad drafting and he fired the best medical staff in MLB.  All of Rick Hahn's chickens are coming home to roost. 

The best medical staff that had Eloy, Robert, Grandal and Madrigal miss a monster part of last season?

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

This. Since his day as a draft choice, the memo pad entry on Collins has been - some bat potential but not really a major league catcher. I guess he had the character to try to become a catcher, it just didn't work out. But somewhere in his time with the Sox, his bat skills lagged resulting in underperformance in his area of best talent. An indictment of the Sox development process? That would be a deep dive and not something I'm ready to get into in any great detail. One thing I would say about it, I'm not too crazy about the Sox insistence on putting all their eggs into so-called 'Major League Ready' baskets. I still get the sense that AV is still in OJT mode. Do the best programs really do business this way? Do they really mistrust their own farm systems to this extent? 

I don't know how it will work long term for Collins, but literally everything that was said about Collins was said about Narvaez when they traded him - "He'll never learn to catch, his framing is awful, I think there's something permanently wrong with his hand-eye coordination that he can never fix", and then with the better coaching and development staffs on other franchises Narvaez turned into a solid catcher within a couple short years. 

[DashFan]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't know how it will work long term for Collins, but literally everything that was said about Collins was said about Narvaez when they traded him - "He'll never learn to catch, his framing is awful, I think there's something permanently wrong with his hand-eye coordination that he can never fix", and then with the better coaching and development staffs on other franchises Narvaez turned into a solid catcher within a couple short years. 

When is the last time our coaching staff took a player with flaws and improved upon them, outside of Cooper with a few pitchers? It seems like position players come here and get worse, if anything.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

4 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

The best medical staff that had Eloy, Robert, Grandal and Madrigal miss a monster part of last season?

Herm Schnieder was fired in 2018.

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, DashFan said:

When is the last time our coaching staff took a player with flaws and improved upon them, outside of Cooper with a few pitchers? It seems like position players come here and get worse, if anything.

Dylan Cease, was also no guarantee Moncada would make enough contact. Giolito was a fallen prospect by time sox got em. They picked up a lot of high variance players in their rebuild and did pretty well. 

But yeah their pro scouting is trash, has been trash since Hahn took over. Hostetler was trash as an am scouting director, and now appears to be trash as the pro side.

[bmags]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don't know how it will work long term for Collins, but literally everything that was said about Collins was said about Narvaez when they traded him - "He'll never learn to catch, his framing is awful, I think there's something permanently wrong with his hand-eye coordination that he can never fix", and then with the better coaching and development staffs on other franchises Narvaez turned into a solid catcher within a couple short years. 

Narvaez was actually good with his bat. I have a hard time believing in Collins bat considering how it looked against a fastball above 88 mph. 

Also I feel like I reserve the only right to rub Narvaez in peoples face because I made this argument at the time and was forced to eat shit about it because colome was paid market rate to be an average closer.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

18 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Herm Schnieder was fired in 2018.

Herm Schneider was fired? Certainly not what I've heard.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, DashFan said:

When is the last time our coaching staff took a player with flaws and improved upon them, outside of Cooper with a few pitchers? It seems like position players come here and get worse, if anything.

Leury Garcia from what he started out as, lol.

Well you have Narvaez and McCann.

Bummer, I guess.

Avi Garcia?  Alejandro de Aza? 

Joking.  But in all seriousness, that recent moment when they were lauding the farm system for all those first rounders making an impact...Fulmer Collins Burdi Rodon and Madrigal all gone now, poof!  Crochet injured. Vaughn out of position.

Edited April 27, 2022 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

45 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Herm Schneider was fired? Certainly not what I've heard.

It was Allen Thomas this past offseason, and isn't Herm still emiritus or something like that?

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, DashFan said:

When is the last time our coaching staff took a player with flaws and improved upon them, outside of Cooper with a few pitchers? It seems like position players come here and get worse, if anything.

The big one was James McCann.

[southsider2k5]

 

[SpringfieldFan]

54 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Leury Garcia from what he started out as, lol.

Well you have Narvaez and McCann.

Bummer, I guess.

Avi Garcia?  Alejandro de Aza? 

Joking.  But in all seriousness, that recent moment when they were lauding the farm system for all those first rounders making an impact...Fulmer Collins Burdi Rodon and Madrigal all gone now, poof!  Crochet injured. Vaughn out of position.

The deal is that even when they are able to stock the kitchen with some tasty ingredients, it seems to always wind up turning into an episode of America's Worst Cooks.

[southsider2k5]

Throw managerial decision making into this tweet stream, and you have the answer to this thread's question.

[wegner]

14 minutes ago, SpringfieldFan said:

The deal is that even when they are able to stock the kitchen with some tasty ingredients, it seems to always wind up turning into an episode of America's Worst Cooks.

Or that new show Rats In The Kitchen

[South Side Fireworks Man]

21 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

The Go Go era gave us 17 straight winning seasons and until  1960 was under the ownership of Grace and her son Chuck Comiskey. Grace died around 1957 and Chuck and sister Dorothy had a family feud with Veeck picking up the pieces in 59. We just happened to play runner up all the time to those great Yankee teams with Mantle, Berra, Ford, Skowron and Maris. At least we made to the WS in 59.

Veeck was a huckster who never had enough money plus he traded away a bunch of promising youngsters after 1959, Callison Romano, Battey and Mincher were gone and in came veterans like Sievers, Freese and Minnie Minoso who gave us hope but that's all.

The owner who had very good success was Arthur Allyn, the 3 best consecutive years in Sox history were in  63, 64, and 65 when the Sox rang up 94, 98 and 95 wins. We also almost won the pennant in 1967. Arthur sold to brother John and he ran out of money and we almost lost the Sox to Seattle in 1975 but Veeck came in at the last minute to keep the team in Chicago. 

Veeck and his syndicate barely had a pot to piss in and when free agency came around they couldn't compete with the big spenders. At least we had 1977 which as much fun as ever on the Southside. 1981 came around and brought us JR.

Good post.

Veeck came up with the "rent a FA" strategy after free agency came around which was actually a pretty innovative strategy at the time.

'77 was probably for me my third most fun season as a White Sox fan.  Number one would be 2005 of course with '72 (the season of MVP Dick Allen) being the second most fun, followed by '77 then '71 ("The Sox have risen"), then 2000.  Even though they didn't make the playoffs in'71, '72 or '77, I enjoyed those seasons more than '83, '93, 2020 or '21.

Those '70s teams were a lot of fun to watch on TV as well with Harry Caray, Jimmy Piersall, Dizzy Dean, and Satchel Paige.  Good times!

 

[The Mighty Mite]

17 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

Good post.

Veeck came up with the "rent a FA" strategy after free agency came around which was actually a pretty innovative strategy at the time.

'77 was probably for me my third most fun season as a White Sox fan.  Number one would be 2005 of course with '72 (the season of MVP Dick Allen) being the second most fun, followed by '77 then '71 ("The Sox have risen"), then 2000.  Even though they didn't make the playoffs in'71, '72 or '77, I enjoyed those seasons more than '83, '93, 2020 or '21.

Those '70s teams were a lot of fun to watch on TV as well with Harry Caray, Jimmy Piersall, Dizzy Dean, and Satchel Paige.  Good times!

 

My guess is I'm a lot older than you as I became a Sox fan in 1952 and was spoiled with all those winning seasons of the GO-GO SOX through 1967.  2005 is still the best Sox season ever but the 1959 AL Pennant winners are still my favorite Sox team, something about boyhood heroes.

Edited April 27, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[South Side Fireworks Man]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Mite said:

My guess is I'm a lot older than you as I became a Sox fan in 1952 and was spoiled with all those winning seasons of the GO-GO SOX through 1967.  2005 is still the best Sox season ever but the 1959 AL Pennant winners are still my favorite Sox team, something about boyhood heroes.

Yeah, I didn't start following baseball until 1968.  If I remember correctly, I think the Sox lost the first 10 games that season.  That was the auspicious beginning of my White Sox fandom.

[The Mighty Mite]

2 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

Yeah, I didn't start following baseball until 1968.  If I remember correctly, I think the Sox lost the first 10 games that season.  That was the auspicious beginning of my White Sox fandom.

I remember 1968 well, my first losing season as Sox fan and I followed them from the other side of the World while in Vietnam.

They did lose their first 10 games and Eddie Stanky was fired around mid-season. 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

1 minute ago, The Mighty Mite said:

I remember 1968 well, my first losing season as Sox fan and I followed them from the other side of the World while in Vietnam.

They did lose their first 10 games and Eddie Stanky was fired around mid-season. 

Yep, then they rehired Al Lopez but he had to quit in early '69 due to illness.  Then they hired Don Gutteridge.

BTW, Thank you for your service!

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

3 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Herm Schnieder was fired in 2018.

oooo I did like Hermy.  For some reason I just assumed he retired

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

Good post.

Veeck came up with the "rent a FA" strategy after free agency came around which was actually a pretty innovative strategy at the time.

'77 was probably for me my third most fun season as a White Sox fan.  Number one would be 2005 of course with '72 (the season of MVP Dick Allen) being the second most fun, followed by '77 then '71 ("The Sox have risen"), then 2000.  Even though they didn't make the playoffs in'71, '72 or '77, I enjoyed those seasons more than '83, '93, 2020 or '21.

Those '70s teams were a lot of fun to watch on TV as well with Harry Caray, Jimmy Piersall, Dizzy Dean, and Satchel Paige.  Good times!

 

You left out the last couple of weeks of the 2008 season...that was just a battle for survival after Quentin went down.  Oh, and Alexei grand salamis.