Retooling / quasi-rebuild

[ron883]

If things continue to go south, and the Sox don't appear to be a playoff team this year, do you support a quasi-rebuild or "retooling"? Trading away guys with less control left in order to have a better team 2 years from now? Giolito and Lance Lynn are the first guys that come to mind. TA if you're getting crazy. Then some relievers. 

This would get money of the payroll (Jerry's biggest concern) and hopefully result in some big time prospects. 

[GreenSox]

If this team continues to rot, they really should get Giolito all primped up and move him in July.
Now that's asking a lot of Hahn and Haber, but it should be done. 
Theoretically they should move relievers as well, but this FO has basically given  them away in past Julys.
A good GM could then get this team straight for next season.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

If this team continues to rot, they really should get Giolito all primped up and move him in July.
Now that's asking a lot of Hahn and Haber, but it should be done. 
Theoretically they should move relievers as well, but this FO has basically given  them away in past Julys.
A good GM could then get this team straight for next season.

They should trade Lynn too if he can re-establish his value before the TDL. 

[ChiSox59]

No. This team can still win this division. As crazy as it sounds. They should fire Larussa and the hitting coach tho. 

[Tony]

1 hour ago, ron883 said:

If things continue to go south, and the Sox don't appear to be a playoff team this year, do you support a quasi-rebuild or "retooling"? Trading away guys with less control left in order to have a better team 2 years from now? Giolito and Lance Lynn are the first guys that come to mind. TA if you're getting crazy. Then some relievers. 

This would get money of the payroll (Jerry's biggest concern) and hopefully result in some big time prospects. 

Here is the main issue (assuming you’re being serious)

Why should a single one of us think the Sox new “plan” will get them any closer to winning? Why would we have the slightest bit of faith in the FO to do it all over again? 
 

I understand the other option leaves us no real hope and you basically just have to wait until new ownership arrives and these life-time contracts Hahn and Williams have received finally expire……but I just don’t know any other way this actually happens. I just don’t see it

[SonofaRoache]

If we need to do any rebuilding then Hahn, TLR, and maybe Kenny needs to go. They talked multiple titles and if this is the peak, we are in trouble. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

Here is the main issue (assuming you’re being serious)

Why should a single one of us think the Sox new “plan” will get them any closer to winning? Why would we have the slightest bit of faith in the FO to do it all over again? 
 

I understand the other option leaves us no real hope and you basically just have to wait until new ownership arrives and these life-time contracts Hahn and Williams have received finally expire……but I just don’t know any other way this actually happens. I just don’t see it

This is pretty much where I'm at. This is a Bill Wirtz type situation. Zero expectations for the Sox going forward. Just enjoy baseball. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[ron883]

5 minutes ago, Tony said:

Here is the main issue (assuming you’re being serious)

Why should a single one of us think the Sox new “plan” will get them any closer to winning? Why would we have the slightest bit of faith in the FO to do it all over again? 
 

I understand the other option leaves us no real hope and you basically just have to wait until new ownership arrives and these life-time contracts Hahn and Williams have received finally expire……but I just don’t know any other way this actually happens. I just don’t see it

The two areas Hahn has excelled in are signing players to affordable, long-term contracts, then successfully trading those players. He's struck out in FA plenty of times. However, the Sale, Quintana and Eaton trades were successes. I'd be ok letter him trade Giolito, Lynn and others. 

[Tony]

4 minutes ago, ron883 said:

The two areas Hahn has excelled in are signing players to affordable, long-term contracts, then successfully trading those players. He's struck out in FA plenty of times. However, the Sale, Quintana and Eaton trades were successes. I'd be ok letter him trade Giolito, Lynn and others. 

ron, I don't disagree with you. Hahn does deserve credit for a number of things. 

However, he has been unable to put together a Championship roster and has been GM since 2012. It's been 10 years and he doesn't have a team that has won 1 Playoff Series. 

It's unacceptable results and just going on history and the data I have to work off of, there is no reason for me to think this group will get it right "the next time." 

[South Side Hit Men]

9 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

If we need to do any rebuilding then Hahn, TLR, and maybe Kenny needs to go. They talked multiple titles and if this is the peak, we are in trouble. 

This, though Jerry needs to be added for any legitimate change. 

2-3 "consecutive playoffs" after a second MLB playoff expansion, in the worst division in baseball, is not the stated goal. This must not be accepted by the fanbase.

Hahn has been crowing about "contending for multiple championships" (not consecutive playoff participation trophies) his entire tenure.

Hahn's second decade as White Sox GM begins October 25, 2022.

[Tnetennba]

In the general sense of the OP, no, I don’t support a retool with this FO in charge.  I would only be in favor or a retool/mini rebuild if only if JR handed over the reins as he has done with the Bulls, and a new team president cleaned house with new outside hire as GM.  Hahn & Co have utterly failed to complete the rebuild and they do not deserve another try.  
 

 

[Sarava]

Hopefully they aren't in the position to want to sell at the deadline. But if they are. What concerns me is, I've lost faith that the current management can make proper decisions to be a championship team. When you ignore glaring holes and load up on relievers and utility infielders - why should the people that made these decisions get another swing at the plate?

[Chimpton]

5 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

In the general sense of the OP, no, I don’t support a retool with this FO in charge.  I would only be in favor or a retool/mini rebuild if only if JR handed over the reins as he has done with the Bulls, and a new team president cleaned house with new outside hire as GM.  Hahn & Co have utterly failed to complete the rebuild and they do not deserve another try.  
 

 

Also realistically a retool with the players we have to trade would be nigh on impossible, which players other than Vaughan, Cease, Kopech and Giolito  (none of whom you would want to trade if it was just a retool) would actually generate much of a return

[caulfield12]

https://www.southsidesox.com/2022/4/29/23048250/white-sox-sleeping-in-the-bed-rick-and-jerry-made

"Last season, if one of Lance Lynn or Lucas Giolito had missed time, we would have seen a frankly distressing number of starts from Mike Wright Jr., a struggling Jimmy Lambert or Jonathan Stiever, and a clearly-better-in-the-bullpen Reynaldo López. But the White Sox had the healthiest pitching staff in baseball over the first half of the season. Now the pendulum has swung the other way, and instead of any number of the reasonably-priced veteran starters who were available in the offseason, the result is more than a quarter of the team’s April games being started by Lambert (who may yet be good, but has been a mixed bag) and Vince Velásquez (who, on the doorstep of age 30, now has a not a replacement player basement, but ceiling).

Mercedes, Lamb, Goodwin, and Billy Hamilton ultimately combined for 28 home runs, 22 doubles, 74 walks, and 90 runs batted in 707 plate appearances. None of that quartet was a part of the front office’s initial game plan for 2021. They were emergency replacements picked up from other teams’ scrap heaps who wound up combining into a legitimate, starting-caliber MLB hitter. Getting that kind of production yet again with waiver pickups and career minor leaguers isn’t and was never going to be an option in 2022."

 

Two starting pitching injuries, a struggling Hendriks/Bummer and missing in action Kelly...and no unexpected breakthroughs like Rodon and Yermin to pick up the slack.

Arguably that's now a .500ish club in a lousy division...the midpoint between floor and ceiling.

Someone researched that 32 of the next 50 games are against "good teams."  Not sure anymore if they can stay within 6-7 of the Twins over that stretch unless Minnesota is beset by their own series of injuries to Buxton, Correa and at least 1-2 starting pitchers.

Edited April 30, 2022 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

I must apologize to everyone.  I'm the one one who kept insisting that the lineup was fine and they needed to concentrate on acquiring pitching.

I've put history's largest jinx on this lineup. These are not bad hitters but I have made them so.

I must go sacrifice a live chicken.

Edited April 30, 2022 by ptatc

[Jnooch]

If you want to really try a retool …… move Abreu at the deadline. Also move AJ Pollack and his 10 million dollar salary. That frees up 30 

million for next year. In addition Velazques, Keickel and Harrison all come off the books, freeing up an additional 25 million. That gives us 

55 million to retool in FA. Heres where it gets tricky……. Dont go on the cheap, sign 2 and only 2 free agents. After that is done extend

Giolitto. With the 55 million sign a pitcher and a 2 nd baseman. We have Colas at WS and he and Engle can patrol RF. We cant keep going

with 2 weak spots defensively in the OF.

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, Chimpton said:

Also realistically a retool with the players we have to trade would be nigh on impossible, which players other than Vaughan, Cease, Kopech and Giolito  (none of whom you would want to trade if it was just a retool) would actually generate much of a return

I was open to the idea of trading Eloy if the return was right, but after another lengthy injury it would be selling low.  There isn’t much value to trade without moving any of those core pieces you would want to build with and build around as you said.  Adding to this core through FA was the way to go an we know how that went. 

[Tnetennba]

50 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I must apologize to everyone.  I'm the one one who kept insisting that the lineup was fine and they needed to concentrate on acquiring pitching.

I've put history's largest jinx on this lineup. These are not bad hitters but I have made them so.

I must go sacrifice a live chicken.

In all fairness we needed both pitching and hitting as both have been hit hard by injury yet again.  The outright refusal to address either last winter is even more baffling when they have lost 10 of 11 and are playing worse than any of us could have imagined. 

[ptatc]

26 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

In all fairness we needed both pitching and hitting as both have been hit hard by injury yet again.  The outright refusal to address either last winter is even more baffling when they have lost 10 of 11 and are playing worse than any of us could have imagined. 

I did not think they needed hitting. They had 7 really good hitters in the lineup. Or so I thought.

[fathom]

Giolito is long gone at the deadline IMO if this shit continues 

[caulfield12]

59 minutes ago, Jnooch said:

If you want to really try a retool …… move Abreu at the deadline. Also move AJ Pollack and his 10 million dollar salary. That frees up 30 

million for next year. In addition Velazques, Keickel and Harrison all come off the books, freeing up an additional 25 million. That gives us 

55 million to retool in FA. Heres where it gets tricky……. Dont go on the cheap, sign 2 and only 2 free agents. After that is done extend

Giolitto. With the 55 million sign a pitcher and a 2 nd baseman. We have Colas at WS and he and Engle can patrol RF. We cant keep going

with 2 weak spots defensively in the OF.

You wouldn’t get much of anything for Abreu if he’s still hitting poorly…you would have to eat salary.  Pollock would only save you $3-4 million for next year at best…read the contract at spotrac.com.

So let’s argue it’s closer to $15 million.  
 

It’s way too early to start projecting Colas for anything but mid to late 2023 unless he absolutely destroys Birmingham and then gets promoted to Charlotte for the last month.  That would require Luis Robert like dominating performance.

The only way to inject prospects is by trading Moncada, but especially Cease, Giolito or Kopech.  Of course, that would make it harder to contend in the short term.  Same with trading Lynn as well after he pitches well for June and July.

Which pretty much leaves you banking on a desperation move to go after for the first time in team history not one but TWO premium free agents to save the rebuild, and that’s coming from one of the weakest FA classes in recent history…with arguably the worst judge of FA talent of any GM the past decade in Rick Hahn. Sounds like a foolproof plan!

And if your two new FA guys come out of the gate like Semien and Correa this year, you’re in a world of hurt that relies on the rest of the division being mediocre moreso than the White Sox being anything more than a one and done playoff team like the Twins and  Indians in recent years.

Or leads to a complete rebuild and the devastation of the fanbase.

 

They have to try getting rid of TLR first.  It’s just that simple.

Edited April 30, 2022 by caulfield12

[Harry Chappas]

Freeing up salary means nothing if its spent on horseshit over 30 year old washed up players.

This is why the Sox suck.  

Today's starting pitcher is exhibit A, Harrison exhibit B and the embarassing Garcia contract C.

The absolute epic failure in the free agent market is why they are where they are.

[southsider2k5]

48 minutes ago, fathom said:

Giolito is long gone at the deadline IMO if this shit continues 

If they get a Sale like return,  it wouldn't be the worst thing.

[Balta1701]

23 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If they get a Sale like return,  it wouldn't be the worst thing.

For a guy with 1.5 years of control? Naw.

[ShoeLessRob]

Not with this front office in place. Injuries be damned, they massively failed if we end up sellers this year and should not be given another opportunity.