Retooling / quasi-rebuild

[SoCalChiSox]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Isn’t sacrificing future assets the opposite of retooling/rebuilding?

I'm not interested in trading any of the present core either. 

That they had poor resource allocation and didn't address their actual needs isn't good cause to start shipping out key personnel like Giolito, Lynn etc. 

They need to dig themselves out of the hole on their own. If they drown, they drown. 

Maybe burning a whole year of the window in his old age will cause JR to see putting his trust in a washed up loser with prehistoric baseball beliefs was a bad idea. 

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

I'm not interested in trading any of the present core either. 

That they had poor resource allocation and didn't address their actual needs isn't good cause to start shipping out key personnel like Giolito, Lynn etc. 

They need to dig themselves out of the hole on their own. If they drown, they drown. 

Maybe burning a whole year of the window in his old age will cause JR to see putting his trust in a washed up loser with prehistoric baseball beliefs was a bad idea. 

The Twins already providing blueprint for dramatic turnaround jettisoning Berrios, Donaldson, Rogers and Cruz...and building an entire rotation almost from scratch. In fact, with Ober out now, it's 100% imported.

Edited May 2, 2022 by caulfield12

[SoCalChiSox]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The Twins already providing blueprint for dramatic turnaround jettisoning Berrios, Donaldson and Cruz...

And?

Blowing their wad on relievers and scrubs when everyone could see they had major issues against RHP and also had a real need to replace Rodon and a real 2B was their choice.

The old man listened to the wrong person and now we are paying the price. I'm not going to get rid of our high end guys just because we spent stupidly when everyone was screaming at the organization that they were spending stupidly. Fucking Ray Charles could see this train wreck coming. So why should we make radical moves to try and save it. If you put your dick in a blender you don't have the right to scream when someone presses the On button.

Sink or swim. I'm not sacrificing Giolito, Lynn, Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, Anderson, Kopech, Cease, Vaughn or young savages in the minors.

The answer is no. 

Fight thru it. 

IDGAF that it's hard to swim when there's an anvil wrapped around their neck. 

Figure it out. If it burns, it burns. 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by SoCalChiSox

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

And?

Blowing their wad on relievers and scrubs when everyone could see they had major issues against RHP and also had a real need to replace Rodon and a real 2B was their choice.

The old man listened to the wrong person and now we are paying the price. I'm not going to get rid of our high end guys just because we spent stupidly when everyone was screaming at the organization that they were spending stupidly. Fucking Ray Charles could see this train wreck coming. So why should we make radical moves to try and save it..

Sink or swim. I'm not sacrificing Giolito, Lynn, Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, Anderson, Kopech, Cease, Vaughn or young savages in the minors.

The answer is no. 

Fight thru it. 

IDGAF that it's hard to swim when there's an anvil wrapped around their neck. 

Figure it out. If it burns, it burns. 

 

I'm not advocating for anything.

Just presenting the logical options.

They will definitely get at least until mid~June.

And they desperately need a shakeup move like the Brewers and Rays accomplished with the Adames trade early last season.

Sacrificing Keuchel right now doesn't accomplish much.

[Jack Parkman]

 

TG saying the quiet part out loud. 

 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

TG saying the quiet part out loud. 

 

Yet, it's the same people, throwing the same temper tantrums every single day.

[caulfield12]

39 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Yet, it's the same people, throwing the same temper tantrums every single day.

No, it's not.  Even the mods are joining in now.. and some of the better posters on this site are starting to question things as well.

 

Tony

"I’m sorry you find it “totally unacceptable.”

You know what I find totally unacceptable?

Having a GM for the last decade that still hasn’t won a playoff series. 

Having a GM show zero interest in bringing back one of their best performing pitchers last year, and replace him with Vince Velasquez.

Having s GM be fully aware he built a lineup that isn’t capable to hitting RHP, and doing nothing to address it in the offseason. 

Having a FO take their Opening Day starter to arbitration over $50,000.

Having ownership dig LaRussa out of the ground to manage the team.

Sorry, I’m not going to “cool it.”

Deal with it."

[Chick Mercedes]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:55 PM, Tnetennba said:

In the general sense of the OP, no, I don’t support a retool with this FO in charge.  I would only be in favor or a retool/mini rebuild if only if JR handed over the reins as he has done with the Bulls, and a new team president cleaned house with new outside hire as GM.  Hahn & Co have utterly failed to complete the rebuild and they do not deserve another try.  
 

 

While they do have a significant portion of blame, this team has been the definition of mediocre now for what will amount to more than half a season. And they had a problem with playing hard recently. The roster has issues that should be seriously looked at. Its been a long time since they were good.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, SoCalChiSox said:

And?

Blowing their wad on relievers and scrubs when everyone could see they had major issues against RHP and also had a real need to replace Rodon and a real 2B was their choice.

The old man listened to the wrong person and now we are paying the price. I'm not going to get rid of our high end guys just because we spent stupidly when everyone was screaming at the organization that they were spending stupidly. Fucking Ray Charles could see this train wreck coming. So why should we make radical moves to try and save it. If you put your dick in a blender you don't have the right to scream when someone presses the On button.

Sink or swim. I'm not sacrificing Giolito, Lynn, Robert, Jimenez, Moncada, Anderson, Kopech, Cease, Vaughn or young savages in the minors.

The answer is no. 

Fight thru it. 

IDGAF that it's hard to swim when there's an anvil wrapped around their neck. 

Figure it out. If it burns, it burns. 

 

This is actually a pretty good post. I doubt anybody in the Sox organization could argue with this post UNLESS they simply used the injury excuse. Otherwise this is a pretty good post IMO.

[Rey21]

Even if this was actually a possibility, I don’t trust Rick Hahn or the major league scouting department to get the right pieces here

[caulfield12]

41-34 + 9-16=50-50 last one hundred games including post season

[ShoeLessRob]

This is the same team (probably worse) that struggled the second half of last season and ultimately got spanked in the playoffs. They have more injuries, their “veterans” are another year older, the defense looks worse, and they still never addressed a giant hole in the rotation, second base, right field, and their continued overspending on the BP has failed again. On top of that you have TLR at the helm calling the shots. This was a recipe for disaster, which a lot of fans were skeptical on.  On paper they have a lot of individual talent, but as a team they look like they have no chemistry or fundamentals.

[Chick Mercedes]

Mercedes, Rodon, Lynn, and people like king bat flip dude fueled this team early last year. They gone, Lynn is coming back, but he let down on his way out, and is of that age. Possibly overrated teams better not be fooling themselves. The way teams stay good is to be aggressive, proactive,  not make mistakes, and this organization did not get the memo.

[Sarava]

Hopefully they don't have to retool or rebuild at the deadline. But some of these relievers could be valuable trade chips if that becomes the case. Good relievers are gold to teams heading towards the playoffs. You can moves guys like Graveman, Kelly or even Hendriks before thinking about moving the Giolito's or Eloy's IMO.

[Jack Parkman]

3 hours ago, Sarava said:

Hopefully they don't have to retool or rebuild at the deadline. But some of these relievers could be valuable trade chips if that becomes the case. Good relievers are gold to teams heading towards the playoffs. You can moves guys like Graveman, Kelly or even Hendriks before thinking about moving the Giolito's or Eloy's IMO.

You have to consider moving Giolito and Lynn if the season goes south. 1.5 years of control and Lynn is old/the Sox don't seem to want to pay LG market value. I don't blame them because LG's fastball has declined each year since he adopted his new delivery, and I think a lot of pitching people think it's hard on his shoulder. 

 

Giolito is my favorite player on the Sox, but I totally understand why they don't want to re-sign him. I hope he gets paid somewhere. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

19 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

You have to consider moving Giolito and Lynn if the season goes south. 1.5 years of control and Lynn is old/the Sox don't seem to want to pay LG market value. I don't blame them because LG's fastball has declined each year since he adopted his new delivery, and I think a lot of pitching people think it's hard on his shoulder. 

 

Giolito is my favorite player on the Sox, but I totally understand why they don't want to re-sign him. 

Because he's short-arming it.

Which is creating more deception at 92-95 and pairs up well with the change...and adds control.

The problem is that he is no longer going to be that guy who blew up radar guns in the high 90s ever since Harvard Westlake with a more long arm delivery.

The second/third problem is the stress that eventually puts on the body and the fact that the fastball and change velocity will continue to show a narrowing velocity gap over time.

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Because he's short-arming it.

Which is creating more deception at 92-95 and pairs up well with the change...and adds control.

The problem is that he is no longer going to be that guy who blew up radar guns in the high 90s ever since Harvard Westlake with a more long arm delivery.

The second/third problem is the stress that eventually puts on the body and the fact that the fastball and change velocity will continue to show a narrowing velocity gap over time.

He was topping out at 97 mph in 2019 and 2020 but now he's barely scraping 95. Luckily the carry on his fastball is elite, so hitters are still late on it. It could be a simple arm slot issue but they're not going to fix what isn't broken. The guy from 19/20 had A+ ace written all over him, the guy now is a solid #2. He always gives up HRs because he lives at the top of the strike zone with the heater, so if said pitch continues to be more hittable, it also makes his change more hittable, and then what happens? I think Giolito is fine for the rest of the Sox team control but I wouldn't bet on him into his 30s as of right now. 

 

I like the guy, he's paid his dues, bet on himself and I hope he gets paid. I understand why the Sox don't want to do it though. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

He was topping out at 97 mph in 2019 and 2020 but now he's barely scraping 95. Luckily the carry on his fastball is elite, so hitters are still late on it. It could be a simple arm slot issue but they're not going to fix what isn't broken. The guy from 19/20 had A+ ace written all over him, the guy now is a solid #2. He always gives up HRs because he lives at the top of the strike zone with the heater, so if said pitch continues to be more hittable, it also makes his change more hittable, and then what happens? I think Giolito is fine for the rest of the Sox team control but I wouldn't bet on him into his 30s as of right now. 

 

I like the guy, he's paid his dues, bet on himself and I hope he gets paid. I understand why the Sox don't want to do it though. 

They have a very strange way of doing business.

Just like with Machado, they stare out into the abyss and can't stomach the risk of one more year and end up throwing a poison pill into the works.

Preserving the status quo of having a seat at the FA table, but usually not closing the deal unless the deck is clearly stacked in their favor (such as extending homegrown players) or when there are just a few competitors and the big boys don't have a compelling need (Abreu in 2014, Robertson, Grandal, Hendriks).

Robert stands out as one of the rarest of exceptions...

[Sarava]

8 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

You have to consider moving Giolito and Lynn if the season goes south. 1.5 years of control and Lynn is old/the Sox don't seem to want to pay LG market value. I don't blame them because LG's fastball has declined each year since he adopted his new delivery, and I think a lot of pitching people think it's hard on his shoulder. 

 

Giolito is my favorite player on the Sox, but I totally understand why they don't want to re-sign him. I hope he gets paid somewhere. 

If you move Lynn and Giolito, you may be punting on the entire rebuild, as opposed to just accepting its a bad year and trying again next year. They don't have the prospects knocking down the door to replace these guys. And we know Jerry doesn't want to spend at the top of the market for free agent starting pitchers.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, Sarava said:

If you move Lynn and Giolito, you may be punting on the entire rebuild, as opposed to just accepting its a bad year and trying again next year. They don't have the prospects knocking down the door to replace these guys. And we know Jerry doesn't want to spend at the top of the market for free agent starting pitchers.

https://zonecoverage.com/2021/mn-twins-news/how-the-twins-were-able-to-get-joe-ryan-in-the-nelson-cruz-trade/
Then you better turn those moves into legit major league ready prospects.

[Sarava]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://zonecoverage.com/2021/mn-twins-news/how-the-twins-were-able-to-get-joe-ryan-in-the-nelson-cruz-trade/
Then you better turn those moves into legit major league ready prospects.

That was a nice get for the Twins. I don't think we should delude ourselves in to thinking Rick Hahn will pull off a similar feat. Especially with such immediate results. More likely it would be a few years before you see success from prospects, even if they do pan out.

[CentralChamps21]

I don't know if you would call this retooling, but Eloy Jimenez, Andrew Vaughn and Jose Abreu must not all be on the team in 2023. Time to repurpose one of the DHs into an actual outfielder.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, CentralChamps21 said:

I don't know if you would call this retooling, but Eloy Jimenez, Andrew Vaughn and Jose Abreu must not all be on the team in 2023. Time to repurpose one of the DHs into an actual outfielder.

Abreu is Nelson Cruz in the 2021 Twins' example. 

Trading Vaughn is dumb, and Jimenez isn't even worth the $22.5 or whatever he is owed the next two seasons until he proves he can stay healthy and produce the entire secondly half...let alone worth his even more expensive 2 option years on the back end.

[Sarava]

3 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

I don't know if you would call this retooling, but Eloy Jimenez, Andrew Vaughn and Jose Abreu must not all be on the team in 2023. Time to repurpose one of the DHs into an actual outfielder.

If you trade Eloy now, or anytime by next winter, you're likely getting pennies on the dollar back for him. And maybe some people would be ok with that between his injuries and underperforming. I'm not ready to go there yet.

[CentralChamps21]

3 minutes ago, Sarava said:

If you trade Eloy now, or anytime by next winter, you're likely getting pennies on the dollar back for him. And maybe some people would be ok with that between his injuries and underperforming. I'm not ready to go there yet.

I'm assuming Vaughn stays so either Eloy goes or Jose goes, but it needs to happen. Should have happened two months ago.