How bad can you be on defense and still make the postseason?

[southsider2k5]

A very interesting other name on this list.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

But what explains the gnawing sense that the White Sox are more often than not less/er than the sum of their individual parts as a collective team?

I disagree completely. There are a ton of glaring black holes all over this lineup that are  currently producing at a triple A level, which is what is making this team dysfunctional at a major league level. That is what is totally unacceptable. Whether it’s a few folks having cold streaks or just being bad - I don’t know. However, if those pieces are fixed, this is a much better team. It’s not some intangible thing - the data says to date we are playing bad baseball and not executing.

[Snopek]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

A very interesting other name on this list.

 

If the Rays are doing it, it must be the cool new thing to do. Looks like we’re ahead of the curve on this one.

[kitekrazy]

2 hours ago, JoshPR said:

Nope that's why I said the holes are filled wrong. Grandal's contract gonna be a burden. So if he catches 110 games so be it. Whatever he gives on offense within that is cake. Not that has doing much in 500 ABs

That's pretty much for every baseball team with long contracts with players in their 30's.

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Joshua Strong said:

Vaughn should take over 1B full time and have Abreu DH, give Abreu a game or two at first a week. 

The games I've watched (eye test), Jose has 'dropped' more throws this year than I've ever seen in the past. Now this may be way off base. I'm just going by eye test in games I've watched. I wonder if Jose is losing the proverbial 'step' in the field and at bat. I know he's a slow starter but he only has 12 RBI. His BA blows. I still love the guy but it seems to me he has the same defensive ailment that's hit the whole team. I could be full of it. Only going by eye test here. Mabe the metrics say he's fine on defense still.

[SonofaRoache]

This team can make the playoffs in this division. There will be no parade without some major flaws being corrected however. It feels like our outlook is similar to all those playoff bound Twins teams that went nowhere. 

[gusguyman]

1 hour ago, Greg Hibbard said:

No, I’m sorry, he doesn’t need to get better. Tim Anderson is just fine - in fact he is contributing more than enough. 

Why are you singling out TA when he is producing far more than, say, Leury Garcia, Gavin Sheets, AJ Pollock, Reese McGuire, Josh Harrison - who need to produce like they aren’t AAAA players. Even established veterans are struggling.

Why single out Tim when he is producing at an all star level despite his errors?? How about we instead hold the other players to a major league standard. Reese McGuire has a -0.3 WAR. Yasmani has a -0.2. 7 players have a negative WAR on this team.

It’s unreal. 

1) We b**** about all of those guys all of the time too

2) TA7 is the leader of this team, leaders get singled out when shit goes wrong

3) Most importantly, Tim has committed 9 errors, all in loses, and his errors were heavily responsible for at least three of those. WAR doesn't take context like that into account, if his bat has been worth 1 WAR then he still has essentially cost us two wins with his fielding. 

Seems pretty justified to discuss him in the bad defense thread.

[Greg Hibbard]

7 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

1) We b**** about all of those guys all of the time too

2) TA7 is the leader of this team, leaders get singled out when shit goes wrong

3) Most importantly, Tim has committed 9 errors, all in loses, and his errors were heavily responsible for at least three of those. WAR doesn't take context like that into account, if his bat has been worth 1 WAR then he still has essentially cost us two wins with his fielding. 

Seems pretty justified to discuss him in the bad defense thread.

No, his defense has not “essentially” cost two wins. Not even close. 

Last night his defense did not cost us that win more than Gavin Sheets’ error cost us, or Moncada’s. So many different individual events happened that cost us *that win*. Why single out TA here, and hang it only on him? Why not our illustrious relief pitching that threw 8 RBIs to Naylor? Why is it him who we hang the loss on and not those guys?

I’m so sick of the meatball mentality that we hang a loss on “one guy” or another. It’s myopic and inaccurately describes the complexity of this entire game. There were several things that happened last night that cost us that win. Just like there are several things that happened to cause all losses we have incurred. 

You’re also saying that Tim’s offensive WAR is below as described metrically - that it is worth 1 win when all available metrics describe it as worth more than 1 win (baseball reference has it as 1.4), but you’re saying that his defensive WAR at -0.3 is inaccurately calculated - that it is actually -2.0 at least.

We have these metrics for a reason and they have been modified frequently. Why do you think your armchair analysis is more accurate?

Can Tim play better? Absolutely. Do I wish he didn’t make those errors? Yes.

I don’t hang that loss last night on Tim Anderson. Not at all. Sorry. 

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I don’t hang that loss last night on Tim Anderson. Not at all. Sorry. 

Not at all? C'mon man. I'm ok with "It wasn't all Tim's fault or even mostly Tim's fault" but "It's totally ok that Tim Anderson is leading the league in errors and it had zero impact on last night's game" is just as far the other way as blaming him for the whole loss.

[Greg Hibbard]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Not at all? C'mon man. I'm ok with "It wasn't all Tim's fault or even mostly Tim's fault" but "It's totally ok that Tim Anderson is leading the league in errors and it had zero impact on last night's game" is just as far the other way as blaming him for the whole loss.

Ok, “not at all” isn’t accurate. Certainly not more than anyone else who made errors or our relievers who game up all those runs. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, Greg Hibbard said:

Ok, “not at all” isn’t accurate. Certainly not more than anyone else who made errors or our relievers who game up all those runs. 

Totally fair. 

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

I think what he’s saying is nobody has ever clicked on any link that you have ever posted.  I feel bad that you waste your time citing arbitrary information

 

Now feel free to cite the link to “109” as much as you like brother ?

Just provide a single one of your predictions that has been close to accurate, please.

Broken clocks rule means you have to be right eventually...

[JoeC]

17 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

No, his defense has not “essentially” cost two wins. Not even close. 

Last night his defense did not cost us that win more than Gavin Sheets’ error cost us, or Moncada’s. So many different individual events happened that cost us *that win*. Why single out TA here, and hang it only on him? Why not our illustrious relief pitching that threw 8 RBIs to Naylor? Why is it him who we hang the loss on and not those guys?

I’m so sick of the meatball mentality that we hang a loss on “one guy” or another. It’s myopic and inaccurately describes the complexity of this entire game. There were several things that happened last night that cost us that win. Just like there are several things that happened to cause all losses we have incurred. 

You’re also saying that Tim’s offensive WAR is below as described metrically - that it is worth 1 win when all available metrics describe it as worth more than 1 win (baseball reference has it as 1.4), but you’re saying that his defensive WAR at -0.3 is inaccurately calculated - that it is actually -2.0 at least.

 We have these metrics for a reason and they have been modified frequently. Why do you think your armchair analysis is more accurate?

 Can Tim play better? Absolutely. Do I wish he didn’t make those errors? Yes.

I don’t hang that loss last night on Tim Anderson. Not at all. Sorry. 

Sorry - you're saying that we're dismissing the complexity of the game, yet you're boiling down small sample sizes to a single number.

WAR is extremely useful in the aggregate / long run, but it's next to useless if you're taking it in one or two game chunks.

On an individual game level, momentum matters. That tends to even out in the long run IMO (thus my affinity toward aggregated statistics like WAR), but in a game like last night when your leader is "out of it" and makes mental mistakes, it's contagious. No, he didn't give up the two home runs to Naylor, but you can't tell me that pitchers don't feel the extra heat.

[ChiSox59]

18 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Not at all? C'mon man. I'm ok with "It wasn't all Tim's fault or even mostly Tim's fault" but "It's totally ok that Tim Anderson is leading the league in errors and it had zero impact on last night's game" is just as far the other way as blaming him for the whole loss.

Neither of Tim's errors yesterday were really all that egregious and neither directly led to runs.  Its troubling that TA continues to make errors, but they didn't lose the game because of TA.  Moncada's error was much more costly.  And the pen's inability to get the 3rd out in the 9th was really the issue, much exacerbated by Moncada's error. 

[Quin]

5 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Can Yolbert play SS?

I think he's firmly at 2B for now, but I do wonder what having a solid-to-above average 2B would do for stabilizing the infield. Without any evidence whatsoever to back it up, I feel like TA and Yoan are the type of players that play better defense when they have better defenders around them.

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, Quin said:

I think he's firmly at 2B for now, but I do wonder what having a solid-to-above average 2B would do for stabilizing the infield. Without any evidence whatsoever to back it up, I feel like TA and Yoan are the type of players that play better defense when they have better defenders around them.

Wasn’t that the WHOLE point of Cesar Hernandez coming in?

[Soxfest]

Can’t win a World Series with this defense 

[pcq]

I think TA's future is at 2B. Eventually. 

[caulfield12]

52 minutes ago, pcq said:

I think TA's future is at 2B. Eventually. 

Well the odds of the Sox drafting a a future superstar SS at #1-6 or spending $140 million plus in FA aren't the greatest...so that means it's Montgomery or bust.

[FoxForce2]

1 hour ago, pcq said:

I think TA's future is at 2B. Eventually. 

If anything, I think Center. It might take awhile to settle into it, but the precedent is there. e.g. Robin Yount et al. Baez does both 2nd and SS well, but he's an exception. I haven't looked at the numbers. Is Semien excelling at 2nd?

[White Sox Park]

14 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

If anything, I think Center. It might take awhile to settle into it, but the precedent is there. e.g. Robin Yount et al. Baez does both 2nd and SS well, but he's an exception. I haven't looked at the numbers. Is Semien excelling at 2nd?

With his speed & arm, and the way that he plays short, i've always felt that he was out of position, and should have been a center fielder.

[The Beast]

15 hours ago, JoshPR said:

This is gonna be an unpopular post and I'll get scalded here but is anyone else getting tired of Tim Anderson's bullshit? Between the bad approach and shit defense maybe it's time to get serious and stop trying to be such a hot dog. Maybe he needs to stop running his mouth and put up or shut up. Sorry but it starts with him. Last night's game is unacceptable for this team. Josh freaking Naylor with 8 RBIs. The pitchers can't k everybody. They need to be able to put the ball in play. I know Dallas ain't the greatest but it might be part of the problem. Trying to be too fine and becoming wild. This has to be addressed. Totally embarrassing

This isn’t unpopular at all. Anderson has it in his cocky head that this team is good and showboats around like they’ve actually won something. He should go out there, not have error prone games and do what he does best and hit. I heard something today about how if they keep playing at the rate they are playing on defense, they will lose ten games because of the lack of run prevention. In this year’s division, they need those games, just like they needed last night’s game.

12 hours ago, JoshPR said:

I really think for this team to win its gonna have to be like the end of 04. Traded Carlos Lee and let mags walk. The Sox have some pieces. But not all of them are the correct ones. So either Abreu says Adios and Eloy becomes full time DH, or eloy gets traded and you fill the holes correctly. Do I trust Hahn to do so. Not really. Vaughn has to be at first full time next year. Eloy is the DH he likes it or not. I'm ok with Moncada at 3rd. Just wish he would get over the hump Nd maybe focus on stretching and flexibility to avoid injury. Let's face it other than Robert the Sox are weak up the middle. 

I’m fine letting Abreu go and trading Jimenez to retool. They need a consistent middle infield, something they had with previous infields. 

[caulfield12]

Well, apparently they played a great game tonight on defense (Moncada particularly) with the exception of Abreu on the very last/controversial play of the game.

Whatever led to that in the clubhouse, do more of that.

[oldsox]

Tell me about the last play, please.

[Balta1701]

10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, apparently they played a great game tonight on defense (Moncada particularly) with the exception of Abreu on the very last/controversial play of the game.

Whatever led to that in the clubhouse, do more of that.

They apparently did do some extra on field practice before the game since they finally had good enough weather to be out doing so.