Groundballs

[2Deep]

As I watched the game last night it was very evident to me the approach at the plate between the 2 teams. 

One team: lots of patience up and down the lineup and swings meant to put the ball in the air. With that came lots of strikeouts, but when they put the ball in play it was mostly in the air with damage. They work 3 straight walks to break the game open after 2 outs.

Other team: Groundball machine......with very limited patience. With the chance to get back in the game and for a big inning this team went after the 1st pitch with bases loaded and one out. Swinging at a pitch 5 inches high and out of the strike zone. Still with a chance, the next batter swings at ball 4 on a pitch at his nose. When the ball was pit in play it was ground out after ground out.

I love this team but if the approach at the plate does not balance out as the season goes on, we will have a very disappointing season. We cannot keep pounding the ball into the ground in key situations and show the impatience of a little league team in key situations.

SIDE NOTE: They better fix the 2B problem quick or that hole will become deeper and deeper.

 

[CentralChamps21]

Sox season BB rankings.

2022 (to date) 30th

2021 6th

2020 24th

2019 30th

2018 29th

2017 28th

I stopped looking at this point because it was so depressing.

This is a team that historically is bad at getting on base. Too many guys that swing way too much. Some of it has to fall on the hitting instructor, but some of it lies on management for acquiring so many guys that already had this approach before they got here. A lot of the same guys also have limited defensive value. This is a poorly constructed team on the position player side and I've been saying this for a while now. Their pure talent might win them the division, but this team will struggle to do well in the playoffs.

[Tnetennba]

The contrast in hitting approaches couldn’t have been more stark last night.  

[CentralChamps21]

1 minute ago, Tnetennba said:

The contrast in hitting approaches couldn’t have been more stark last night.  

I know no manager is ever going to do this, but Tim Anderson should not be batting leadoff, especially against RHP. He's a high average, moderate power guy who doesn't take a lot of walks or even take a lot of pitches. He profiles as a guy you bat 6th to drive in the middle of the order guys when they get on base but don't homer.

Moncada and Grandal should be at the top of the order, with Robert-Vaughn-Abreu behind them.

[WBWSF]

Abreu and Grandal simply aren't hitting. If these  2 don't start hitting this season isn't going to be a success.

[Jnooch]

I hope were done with Jose. I have this sick feeling Jerry will give him another 3 yr contract. This will furthur block Eloy, Vaughn & Sheets. 
we made the same with Konerko. 

 

[CentralChamps21]

3 minutes ago, Jnooch said:

I hope were done with Jose. I have this sick feeling Jerry will give him another 3 yr contract. This will furthur block Eloy, Vaughn & Sheets. 
we made the same with Konerko. 

 

Except that the Sox weren't a contending team in Konerko's last years so it didn't matter as much that he was taking a lineup spot. The stakes are higher with Abreu.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

Yes we have a reduntant lineup full of players with bad approaches.  This has been obvious for years.

[Harry Chappas]

2 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Sox season BB rankings.

2022 (to date) 30th

2021 6th

2020 24th

2019 30th

2018 29th

2017 28th

I stopped looking at this point because it was so depressing.

This is a team that historically is bad at getting on base. Too many guys that swing way too much. Some of it has to fall on the hitting instructor, but some of it lies on management for acquiring so many guys that already had this approach before they got here. A lot of the same guys also have limited defensive value. This is a poorly constructed team on the position player side and I've been saying this for a while now. Their pure talent might win them the division, but this team will struggle to do well in the playoffs.

Last year was an anomaly.  I have been saying for years, they do not take pitches, take pitchers pitches or fight off pitches to extend at bats .  It is a miracle if a guy has a 6 pitch at-bat.  Go watch the Jose Ruiz inning to see the epitome of how the Yankees hit.  The White Sox OBP is not that bad because they have decent averages. 

Tim Anderson is the case study for this with a 340 average 360 OBP...when it falls to a still stellar 310 the OBP then drops to 335 which is ok for a led off hitter.

After the walk and three run homer from Yoan last night, the White Sox took zero strikes and faced 4 pitches, grounding out 3 times to end the rally. 

They need too many hits to extend rallies and that is not happening.  They gave up rallies of 6 and 7 runs this week.  Not sure the last time they had one of those. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

59 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Last year was an anomaly.  I have been saying for years, they do not take pitches, take pitchers pitches or fight off pitches to extend at bats .  It is a miracle if a guy has a 6 pitch at-bat.  Go watch the Jose Ruiz inning to see the epitome of how the Yankees hit.  The White Sox OBP is not that bad because they have decent averages. 

Tim Anderson is the case study for this with a 340 average 360 OBP...when it falls to a still stellar 310 the OBP then drops to 335 which is ok for a led off hitter.

After the walk and three run homer from Yoan last night, the White Sox took zero strikes and faced 4 pitches, grounding out 3 times to end the rally. 

They need too many hits to extend rallies and that is not happening.  They gave up rallies of 6 and 7 runs this week.  Not sure the last time they had one of those. 

I imagine .335 would be in the bottom half of leadoff hitters OBP.  Granted i did 0 research hahah

[Bob Sacamano]

3 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Yes we have a reduntant lineup full of players with bad approaches.  This has been obvious for years.

Yeah...there's just this black cloud over the organization. Feels like something is missing. Starts at the top.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

13 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Yeah...there's just this black cloud over the organization. Feels like something is missing. Starts at the top.

Also, when all your leaders (Abreu and Anderson) are guys that young players look up to, maybe the young players begin taking their approaches? idk

[Eminor3rd]

The Sox have never been able to actually develop hitting. They’re eternally attracted to drafting guys who are so athletic that they’re somehow successful despite their lack of polish/instruction/mechanics, and then the team just… sees if the success continues.

Whether or not the team can put together a top-tier offense in a given year depends almost entirely on how many freak-of-nature “exceptions” like TA or Luis Robert they can manage to have ready on the active roster at the same time — modified by whether or not their bargain free agent signings still have one good year left in the tank or not. 
 

Gordon Beckhams, Zack Collinses, etc. just rot on the vine. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Eminor3rd

[The Kids Can Play]

4 hours ago, Jnooch said:

I hope were done with Jose. I have this sick feeling Jerry will give him another 3 yr contract. This will furthur block Eloy, Vaughn & Sheets. 
we made the same with Konerko. 

 

I totally agree with you. Jose has been great for the Sox over the years. He will undoubtedly go down in Sox history as one of the best. However this is 2022 and Jose is 35 years old and you can see the hitting skills and timing are not the same anymore. Jose has a career BABIP of .322. This season he is at his 9 year career low in BABIP at .233. He is also at career lows in almost every other hitting stat. He is 0-15 in the last three games and 8-42 (.190) in 9 games in the month of May, with one home run and 2 doubles. 

The fact is he will be 36 years old next season and maybe it's time to be realistic that we might have gotten the best of Jose and it's time to move on...as painful as that is to say and comprehend. 

We are deep at first base with Sheets and Vaughn! It's time to get some prospects for him at trade deadline, before we lose him as a free agent in 2023 with nothing. 

 

[elrockinMT]

We do hit a lot of ground balls

[JoeCredeYes]

11 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I totally agree with you. Jose has been great for the Sox over the years. He will undoubtedly go down in Sox history as one of the best. However this is 2022 and Jose is 35 years old and you can see the hitting skills and timing are not the same anymore. Jose has a career BABIP of .322. This season he is at his 9 year career low in BABIP at .233. He is also at career lows in almost every other hitting stat. He is 0-15 in the last three games and 8-42 (.190) in 9 games in the month of May, with one home run and 2 doubles. 

The fact is he will be 36 years old next season and maybe it's time to be realistic that we might have gotten the best of Jose and it's time to move on...as painful as that is to say and comprehend. 

We are deep at first base with Sheets and Vaughn! It's time to get some prospects for him at trade deadline, before we lose him as a free agent in 2023 with nothing. 

 

Very unpopular opinion around these parts for anybody not named Ron, but I've been saying for 2 years now that Jose isn't an everyday player and cannot hold the team hostage any longer demanding every day ABs and 1B play.  His defense this year and been fucking abysmal and Vaughn should start getting the everyday 1B starts next week.  Jose DHs vs LHP and nothing else.  If he's still this bad when Eloy is back it's time to say goodbye to old Jose or demand he take a bench role.  That being said, hope the dude turns it around here in short order .

[The Kids Can Play]

5 hours ago, WBWSF said:

Abreu and Grandal simply aren't hitting. If these  2 don't start hitting this season isn't going to be a success.

No shit! In the month of May: Abreu is 8-42 .190 BA - 1 HR and Grandal is 5-33 .152 BA - 0 HR's. In BABIP, Abrue has a career .322 BIBIP and .233 this season! Grandal career .BABIP of .275 vs. this season at .195 BABIP!

[JoeCredeYes]

1 minute ago, The Kids Can Play said:

No shit! In the month of May: Abreu is 8-42 .190 BA - 1 HR and Grandal is 5-33 .152 BA - 0 HR's. In BABIP, Abrue has a career .322 BIBIP and .233 this season! Grandal career .BABIP of .275 vs. this season at .195 BABIP!

It's honestly unbelievable how bad those two have been, factor in injuries and we're still .500, too much talent on this team to give up hope just yet. 

[The Mighty Mite]

5 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Except that the Sox weren't a contending team in Konerko's last years so it didn't matter as much that he was taking a lineup spot. The stakes are higher with Abreu.

Exactly.

[2Deep]

4 hours ago, JoeCredeYes said:

It's honestly unbelievable how bad those two have been, factor in injuries and we're still .500, too much talent on this team to give up hope just yet. 

Hope  i always have..................But I also am beginning to see realistically.  Yesterday reminded me  how far away we are from the elite teams (Yankees, Astros, Dodgers).  They have a plan at the plate, may not always work, but they make you work.  Our problem will not be pitching this year......Our problem will be this offense.  

Edited May 13, 2022 by 2Deep

[JoeCredeYes]

7 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

Hope is always have..................But I also am beginning to see realistically.  Yesterday reminded me  how far away we are from the elite teams (Yankees, Astros, Dodgers).  They have a plan at the plate, may not always work, but they make you work.  Our problem will not be pitching this year......Our problem will be this offense.  

Agree 100% Huge gap between the Sox and the super teams.  But I can also see how a return to career norms for Jose and Yaz with a healthy Eloy, AV, YoYo and maybe a TDL bat or two and we stack up solidly against those squads.  How do we acquire Josh Bell without hurting Jose's feelings?

Edited May 13, 2022 by JoeCredeYes
typos

[BFirebird]

6 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Sox season BB rankings.

2022 (to date) 30th

2021 6th

2020 24th

2019 30th

2018 29th

2017 28th

I stopped looking at this point because it was so depressing.

This is a team that historically is bad at getting on base. Too many guys that swing way too much. Some of it has to fall on the hitting instructor, but some of it lies on management for acquiring so many guys that already had this approach before they got here. A lot of the same guys also have limited defensive value. This is a poorly constructed team on the position player side and I've been saying this for a while now. Their pure talent might win them the division, but this team will struggle to do well in the playoffs.

That 6th is actually T4....but the point still remains that I agree they seem really impatient at the plate.  Having Moncada back will jack up the walk rate a little bit, but how in the world did they have so many last year when you watch this team bat?

Lets compare walk rates this year vs. last year.  I know SSS and if you think it is an anomaly last year it is essentially the same lineup.

Player         2022        2021

Grandal      16.7%.      23.2%.     HUGE difference

Abreu.         8.9%.       9.3%.        Same

Vaughn.       8.3%.       8.7%          Same

Moncada.     6.7%.     13.6%         Really just entered lineup so a big negative effect

Sheets.          6%.         8.9%          Decent dip

Engel.            5.8%        7.9%          Decent dip

Robert.          5.3%        4.7%           Somehow better?  Still not good

Burger.          5.2%         9.5%          Pretty big dip

Eloy                 5.1%        6.9%          Decent dip

Pollock.           4.5%        7.1%.         Pretty big dip

TA                    2.7%        2.7%           Amazingly exactly the same

Leury               2.6%        8.6%            HUGE difference (he has noticeably been waaaaay super aggressive compared to last year - he is definitely part of the anomaly from last year)

Harrison          1.6%        5.6%           He is just bad so.....

 

So looking at this:

1.  Some guys (Abreu, Vaughn, TA, Robert - somehow has better rate) are at the same, while others have fallen off a cliff with walks (Grandal, Pollock, Leury/Harrison - group them together) or we have not received many yet due to injury (Moncada).

2.  With Moncada back (he had some good swings last night) and in the 2 hole, they should get more walks. 

3. If Grandal starts hitting, he will also get more walks....right now he is being pitched to because he isn't doing anything with the baseball.

4. Some of the main cogs are at the same rate as last year and I don't mind some aggressiveness (TA, Robert) but with lesser players (Sheets, Pollock, Leury/Harrison) I feel like they need to take a different approach especially being at the bottom of the order.  Their job should be to try and get on base in any fashion and spoil off pitches.  Leury did this last year and it was actually the one thing he was good at.  Pollock has decent walk rates in the past and Sheets should also be able to do this.

 

Summary:

Moncada will up our walk rate being back and we need Grandal to snap out of it not only to drive in more runs but just be on base.  These 2 alone will probably get you back to middle of the pack.  If you can get the bottom of the lineup to see 30-40 more pitches a game that effects how long the SP can last and they will definitely draw more walks.  It almost feels like everyone in the lineup thinks they need a hit to get out of this team slump when really a more patient approach will probably do the trick because they will see some worse pitchers in the 5th and 6th than the SP.

 

Also....start hitting the ball in the air.  I 100% agree with everyone that they hit WAAAAAY too many groundballs....but that was even an issue last year.  Is that a Menechino thing with just trying to make contact and strikeout less?  But they seem to hit an inordinate amount of groundballs.

[Capn12]

Jose is at a career high 51.7% ground ball percentage this year, obliterating any previous percentage in his career.

[BFirebird]

1 hour ago, Capn12 said:

Jose is at a career high 51.7% ground ball percentage this year, obliterating any previous percentage in his career.

That’s insane. And really, really bad. 

[The Mighty Mite]

23 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Yeah...there's just this black cloud over the organization. Feels like something is missing. Starts at the top.

All the way at the top.