It's time to put Jose out to pasture

[ChiSox59]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Sox had/have enough DH types. I hated the idea of signing another, LH or RH. Besides, what good ones were even available? Everyone was touting Conforto and he didn’t sign with anyone and then got hurt. Avoided that disaster.

Well, not making a move for a competent LH hitter was an awful decision that rears its ugly head literally every game. 

Conforto would have been an awesome fit.  This team would be so much better with him if he was healthy.  Turns out he was hurt all offseason and it wasn't really public knowledge until mid Spring Training but the teams knew about it all along.  So he was never really an option...unfortunatelybecause we need someone just like him. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Well, not making a move for a competent LH hitter was an awful decision that rears its ugly head literally every game. 

Conforto would have been an awesome fit.  This team would be so much better with him if he was healthy.  Turns out he was hurt all offseason and it wasn't really public knowledge until mid Spring Training but the teams knew about it all along.  So he was never really an option...unfortunatelybecause we need someone just like him. 

Nah. The problem is your boy Grandal isn’t hitting this season and guys like Moncada, Eloy, Timmy, and Robert have either been bad or hurt. 

Monday morning QBs will say they should have signed Joc Pederson but he’s the exact type of player that would come to the Sox and forget how to hit. Plus he’s not very good defensively. No offseason signing would have saved the Sox to this point. Live and die with the core.

[ChiSox59]

8 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Nah. The problem is your boy Grandal isn’t hitting this season and guys like Moncada, Eloy, Timmy, and Robert have either been bad or hurt. 

Monday morning QBs will say they should have signed Joc Pederson but he’s the exact type of player that would come to the Sox and forget how to hit. Plus he’s not very good defensively. No offseason signing would have saved the Sox to this point. Live and die with the core.

Nah?  You honestly think this lineup is well constructed?  You're nuts.  The White Sox currently have the worst left handed hitting in the leauge...by quite a bit...but a career 136 wRC+ against RHP wouldn't help?  Yeah, OK.  

Yes, Grandal has been awful.  That hurts.  Joc Pederson wasn't the answer, though he'd be worlds better than Gavin Sheets or running with an everyday lineup without a single natural left handed hitter.  

Edited June 14, 2022 by ChiSox59

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Nah?  You honestly think this lineup is well constructed?  You're nuts.

Yes, Grandal has been awful.  That hurts.  Joc Pederson wasn't the answer, though he'd be worlds better than Gavin Sheets or running with an everyday lineup without a single natural left handed hitter.  

Coming into this season, Abreu, Grandal, Robert, Eloy, Pollock and Moncada all had career OPS of ~.800 or higher vs RHP. TA struggled a bit against RHP but was respectable. Vaughn and Sheets were largely unknowns. On paper, this lineup should be league average against RHP at worst and very good at best. 

[Lillian]

So far this season, in 50 games, Joc Pederson has put up better numbers than any of the Sox hitters, vs. RHP:

AVG .272  OBP .353  SLG .574  OPS .926 with 12 homers and 28 RBI's.

Although I wasn't enthusiastic over the prospect of signing him and maybe he wouldn't have had that success in Chicago, but if so, he would have looked pretty good, hitting in the middle of the lineup,  

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Meh. No one predicted this type of downfall for Moncada, Grandal, and Eloy. Those are three guys that had historically hit RHP very well. They can still turn it around this season (once healthy) but needs to happen soon. If they do turn it around, the recent offense that has been quite good over the past 10 days will turn into the great offense everyone expected.

 Moncada is great at racking up WAR but his slugging percentage has been trending down when it was under.400 for most of last year until a late season surge finally got it above .400.

Grandal is old and gets injured far too often now so yes his downfall ,though not to the degree it has come ,has been in the cards for at least a season.

Eloy is never on the field because of injuries and quite a few people think he'll always be injury prone. So that's been easily predictable.

People on this site want to believe in these guys but they can't because of age, constant injuries and whatever has been making Moncada look like baseball is a new sport to him.

You're just making excuses for those guys. Eloy and Moncada haven't been around enough to say how they've done historically. I'll reserve that for guys who have a lot more AB's than they do.

Edited June 14, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Texsox]

Is there a statistical difference if a LH gets a hit off a RHP instead of a RH? It seems like what we want is anyone who can hit RHP? 

[ptatc]

20 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 Moncada is great at racking up WAR but his slugging percentage has been trending down when it was under.400 for most of last year until a late season surge finally got it above .400.

Grandal is old and gets injured far too often now so yes his downfall ,though not to the degree it has come ,has been in the cards for at least a season.

Eloy is never on the field because of injuries and quite a few people think he'll always be injury prone. So that's been easily predictable.

People on this site want to believe in these guys but they can't because of age, constant injuries and whatever has been making Moncada look like baseball is a new sport to him.

You're just making excuses for those guys. Eloy and Moncada haven't been around enough to say how they've done historically. I'll reserve that for guys who have a lot more AB's than they do.

I would disagree with Eloy to an extent because all if the injuries are something different. But he needs to prove it.

But the others it's hard to disagree. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

37 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 Moncada is great at racking up WAR but his slugging percentage has been trending down when it was under.400 for most of last year until a late season surge finally got it above .400.

Grandal is old and gets injured far too often now so yes his downfall ,though not to the degree it has come ,has been in the cards for at least a season.

Eloy is never on the field because of injuries and quite a few people think he'll always be injury prone. So that's been easily predictable.

People on this site want to believe in these guys but they can't because of age, constant injuries and whatever has been making Moncada look like baseball is a new sport to him.

You're just making excuses for those guys. Eloy and Moncada haven't been around enough to say how they've done historically. I'll reserve that for guys who have a lot more AB's than they do.

Grandal had his best offensive season ever last season. Monday morning quarterbacking to say this was the year he would fall off. Moncada had an OPS+ of 116 last season (compared to 14 this season). If you are arguing that Grandal’s dropoff was inevitable due to age then Moncada and Eloy should be entering their prime.

[fathom]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

Who love handiness more? Tony or Lillian? 

 

McGuire

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Nah?  You honestly think this lineup is well constructed?  You're nuts.  The White Sox currently have the worst left handed hitting in the leauge...by quite a bit...but a career 136 wRC+ against RHP wouldn't help?  Yeah, OK.  

Yes, Grandal has been awful.  That hurts.  Joc Pederson wasn't the answer, though he'd be worlds better than Gavin Sheets or running with an everyday lineup without a single natural left handed hitter.  

Or, like, actual outfielders.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Lillian said:

So far this season, in 50 games, Joc Pederson has put up better numbers than any of the Sox hitters, vs. RHP:

AVG .272  OBP .353  SLG .574  OPS .926 with 12 homers and 28 RBI's.

Although I wasn't enthusiastic over the prospect of signing him and maybe he wouldn't have had that success in Chicago, but if so, he would have looked pretty good, hitting in the middle of the lineup,  

 

They took two outfielders away, the other Luis Gonzalez.

[South Side Hit Men]

5 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Even if he did have that clout and it was true...it's not a good or sound baseball decision to not move Jose while the return could be huge! It doesn't make the Sox better going into the future for the next several years! 

I think you are overestimating a return on a 35 year old DH/1B in today's game. He's worth more to the Sox, both in current production and intangibles, than anything you would get for him (a solid prospect if you ate the salary, otherwise a couple lottery tickets). Couldn't trade him at his max value (after MVP "season").

He will be here until he wants retire, and I think he's earned that right. All ears on most other players, save for Robert, Vaughn, Anderson, Kopech and Cease.

[The Kids Can Play]

19 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I think you are overestimating a return on a 35 year old DH/1B in today's game. He's worth more to the Sox, both in current production and intangibles, than anything you would get for him (a solid prospect if you ate the salary, otherwise a couple lottery tickets). Couldn't trade him at his max value (after MVP "season").

He will be here until he wants retire, and I think he's earned that right. All ears on most other players, save for Robert, Vaughn, Anderson, Kopech and Cease.

I don't think I am underestimating the return value of a 35 year old at all. Go back and check the productivity of great players over 35 and compare their stats to when they were in their 20's or low 30's. There are a few exceptions but not many. Even though Jose has been a nice run lately, he is still below his lifetime averages for HR's, RBI's and BA. 

The other aspect you are neglecting is what are they going to do with Vaughn in the field? It's pretty clear at 24 yrs old, Vaughn is going to be a top all star for the Sox for many years to come. I think its insane to keep playing him out of position, when he is a first baseman. 

Now of course logically they could alternate Jose and Andrew between DH and 3B, but that probably won't happen, because Jose complains when he isn't playing first all the time. Plus he is a better defensive first baseman than Andrew. Although they haven't given Andrew any significant time at first, so we don't know how good he could be at first. Don't forget Jose's first few years at first, he was not a good defensively. He worked at and eventually got better. 

You are underestimating the value of what we would get for Jose. If Jose is crushing it like he is now at the trade deadline, we could get at least 3 prospects and maybe someone's top 100 MLB prospect, like the Cubs got last year for Baez and now they have a top 100 prospect.  Again, it depends on the right team in contention. For example, if a Yankees team all of sudden started having major injury issues with Rizzo where he misses a lot games, then Abreu would be very appealing to Cashman. 

 

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

I don't think I am underestimating the return value of a 35 year old at all. Go back and check the productivity of great players over 35 and compare their stats to when they were in their 20's or low 30's. There are a few exceptions but not many. Even though Jose has been a nice run lately, he is still below his lifetime averages for HR's, RBI's and BA. 

The other aspect you are neglecting is what are they going to do with Vaughn in the field? It's pretty clear at 24 yrs old, Vaughn is going to be a top all star for the Sox for many years to come. I think its insane to keep playing him out of position, when he is a first baseman. 

Now of course logically they could alternate Jose and Andrew between DH and 3B, but that probably won't happen, because Jose complains when he isn't playing first all the time. Plus he is a better defensive first baseman than Andrew. Although they haven't given Andrew any significant time at first, so we don't know how good he could be at first. Don't forget Jose's first few years at first, he was not a good defensively. He worked at and eventually got better. 

You are underestimating the value of what we would get for Jose. If Jose is crushing it like he is now at the trade deadline, we could get at least 3 prospects and maybe someone's top 100 MLB prospect, like the Cubs got last year for Baez and now they have a top 100 prospect.  Again, it depends on the right team in contention. For example, if a Yankees team all of sudden started having major injury issues with Rizzo where he misses a lot games, then Abreu would be very appealing to Cashman. 

 

The difference between Baez and Abreu is all star defense at premium positions. 

Also who is looking for a 1B/DH for that kind of price?

[The Kids Can Play]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

The difference between Baez and Abreu is all star defense at premium positions. 

Also who is looking for a 1B/DH for that kind of price?

A team looking for a 1B/DH is a serious team in WS contention who off all of sudden loses their first starting first baseman...and needs a power hitter who plays a great defensive first. Or a contending team that has a first baseman hitting poorly.

Baez might be good defensively, but he is nowhere near the hitting numbers of Abreu. Even Rizzo brought in two good prospects from the Yankees and Rizzo isn't close to Abreu's value. 

Again we have a first baseman in Vaughn. What the Sox need desperately now, is prospects to improve our horrific farm system...especially pitchers. 

Plus if we fall way out of the race by the deadline then becoming a seller is imperative. 

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, The Kids Can Play said:

A team looking for a 1B/DH is a serious team in WS contention who off all of sudden loses their first starting first baseman...and needs a power hitter who plays a great defensive first. Or a contending team that has a first baseman hitting poorly.

Baez might be good defensively, but he is nowhere near the hitting numbers of Abreu. Even Rizzo brought in two good prospects from the Yankees and Rizzo isn't close to Abreu's value. 

Again we have a first baseman in Vaughn. What the Sox need desperately now, is prospects to improve our horrific farm system...especially pitchers. 

Plus if we fall way out of the race by the deadline then becoming a seller is imperative. 

I know it's your thing, but I think you are overvaluing Jose Abreu on the trade market and completely ignoring the Sox history of not trading the faces of the franchise unless they ask to leave. 

[The Kids Can Play]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I know it's your thing, but I think you are overvaluing Jose Abreu on the trade market and completely ignoring the Sox history of not trading the faces of the franchise unless they ask to leave. 

Agreed I am only about loyalty to a certain extent and don't value loyalty as much as the idiot Reinsdorf does. However at some point I want value back before the player becomes valueless and then you don't get anything back. 

I also agree with you this organization is blindly loyal and Abreu will stay as long as he wants.. That doesn't make it right or a smart management move. It just proves that the worst owner in all four sports owns the Sox.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Agreed I am only about loyalty to a certain extent and don't value loyalty as much as the idiot Reinsdorf does. However at some point I want value back before the player becomes valueless and then you don't get anything back. 

I also agree with you this organization is blindly loyal and Abreu will stay as long as he wants.. That doesn't make it right or a smart management move. It just proves that the worst owner in all four sports owns the Sox.

You’ve heard of Daniel Snyder?  The Phoenix Suns owner, at least on a personal level dealing with employees…?

[South Side Hit Men]

46 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You’ve heard of Daniel Snyder?  The Phoenix Suns owner, at least on a personal level dealing with employees…?

Last I checked, one Chicago organIzation aided and abetted a serial child rapist. The same one with the racist branding / logo and racist management.

Also would not trade Jerry Reinsdorf for the McCaskey family, it would be a downgrade on multiple fronts. Perhaps the Cardinals will return to the South Side once the Bears leave town.

That leaves rickets in terms of the "Big Four". Good in terms of staying out of Chicago Cubs baseball operations decisions, bad in terms of being an in debt cheap-ass who will not adequately fund a Top 5 revenue team. On a personal level, the entire family klan is embarrassing, to say the least.

Collectively, Chicago ranks up there with the most repulsive collective Big Four ownership. DC and "New York" are also in the running for the Top Spot. 

 

[Boopa1219]

If the Sox are out of it near the TDL, they gotta look to trade Abreu (and Pollock), he’s not going to be here for the long haul anymore. He’s on an expiring contract and they could get something for him instead of letting him walk and get nothing. 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

7 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

If the Sox are out of it near the TDL, they gotta look to trade Abreu (and Pollock), he’s not going to be here for the long haul anymore. He’s on an expiring contract and they could get something for him instead of letting him walk and get nothing. 

 

Yeah I don’t think they would just deal him without his permission if they wanted to re-sign him beyond this year. But I think they would ask him if he wants to go to a contender to try to get a ring and then talk in the off-season.

[ron883]

If this continues into next year, it will be a Brett Favre - Aaron Rodgers situation between Abreu and Vaughn

[South Side Hit Men]

8 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

If the Sox are out of it near the TDL, they gotta look to trade Abreu (and Pollock), he’s not going to be here for the long haul anymore. He’s on an expiring contract and they could get something for him instead of letting him walk and get nothing. 

If you can get anyone to bite, Eloy is (and has been since 2020) the player to shop. More trade value than these two old veterans, with a high likelihood of endless injuries and disappointing play based on the past three seasons. Robert and Vaughn are younger and have more upside at this juncture, Yoan and Tim far more valuable in terms of their positions.

In my "offseason plan", I proposed trading Eloy and Mercedes to Miami, who had rumored interest in both players, for one of their pitchers. Would still love to see what they could get pitching wise for Eloy.

[The Kids Can Play]

16 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

You’ve heard of Daniel Snyder?  The Phoenix Suns owner, at least on a personal level dealing with employees…?

I've heard of Daniel Snyder. Agreed he is a despicable man. However I am not giving grades on their personality traits or how they interact with their employees. I am not condoning that type of poor ownership behavior. However that wasn't my rationale for why Jerry is the biggest loser owner in all of sports. My grade as worst owner is based on how one owner continues to make horrific management decisions on their players, coaches and GM's collectively over two pro sports' teams.

Facts:

No other owner would put up with allowing John Paxson to continue to destroy the Chicago Bulls for 17 years. The fact of the matter is, it took his son Michael when completely in charge and not Jerry...to get rid of Paxson and his loser GM Gar Forman.

No other owner would have allowed Jerry Krause to fire Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan in 1999. There are documented statements and proof Jerry indeed thought it was a bad decision on Krause's part at the time! But of course, Jerry doesn't know when to step in and stop a major mistake being made.

No owner back in 1986 would allow a weak and first time clueless GM Hawk Harrelson, to fire TLR at the time, when he had a career winning record with the Sox that first time around. If you recall, the firing was simply a huge personality clash between them. Go figure with the big ego Hawk had! 

No other owner would override his VP Hahn and hire the manager for him, especially when he is a old demented and two time DUI drunken manager as a statement...he could correct a mistake he regretted from 35 years ago.

No owner even after making a colossal mistake of hiring TLR, after a horrendous 2022 start and disappointing 2021 finish, where the manager is clearly incapable and over the hill...wouldn't have by now fired and corrected his initial huge mistake. 

You cannot be a good owner when you constantly show weaknesses such as a lack of intelligence, common sense and lack of backbone. When at one moment, he can't step up and stop Hawk Harrelson from firing TLR in 1986 the first time or Phil Jackson in 1999.

At the time Jerry knew it was a mistake to allow Hawk to fire TLR. He publicly mentioned numerous times how he regretted not stepping in, as it was one of the worst mistakes of his career he always regretted.

Who are kidding...If Reinsdorf wasn't interested in hiring TLR in 2021, tell me one of major league owner who would have been desperate enough to hire TLR as a manager at 76 yrs old.

Owners hire/fire VP's/GM's and VP's/GM's hire/fire managers/head coaches. 

Name me one other owner who made these absurd decisions with two separate teams!