Contenders/pretenders

[caulfield12]

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-teams-off-to-slow-starts-2022

White Sox first team discussed at length, along with Red Sox, Mariners, Braves, Phillies.

No Blue Jays...as current last WC team.

Interesting they noted the farm system at the end.  More well-informed than the average ESPN article at least.

Edited May 16, 2022 by caulfield12

[HOFHurt35]

As long as the Sox play in the AL Central they are clearly contenders. 

[Tony]

2 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

As long as the Sox play in the AL Central they are clearly contenders. 

Contenders for what?

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

As long as the Sox play in the AL Central they are clearly contenders. 

That's the ONLY ray of hope at the moment.

[T R U]

This team is not a contender, even if they still end up winning this horseshit division. They didn’t address any of our needs in the off-season, most of the problem right there. 

[HOFHurt35]

28 minutes ago, Tony said:

Contenders for what?

Ask the Braves.

Not sure why some of you guys always assume the best regular season teams will always come out on top.

If you get in and healthy ( being the key ) you always have a chance.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Ask the Braves.

Not sure why some of you guys always assume the best regular season teams will always come out on top.

If you get in and healthy ( being the key ) you always have a chance.

Interestingly, that very Braves' scenario from last year is noted and how much harder it will be to pull off the same neat trick in a seller's market with the Mets already so far ahead...without even adding deGrom to the mix.

[SonofaRoache]

7 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Ask the Braves.

Not sure why some of you guys always assume the best regular season teams will always come out on top.

If you get in and healthy ( being the key ) you always have a chance.

Please stop using the Braves as an example folks. Prior to winning it all they won 3 straight division titles in a much better division than we've seen the last few years. In 2020 they played in the NLCS and were one win away from the WS. That's before you factor in they had arguably the best infield in Baseball. 

There is no comparison to us. 

[HOFHurt35]

7 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Please stop using the Braves as an example folks. Prior to winning it all they won 3 straight division titles in a much better division than we've seen the last few years. In 2020 they played in the NLCS and were one win away from the WS. That's before you factor in they had arguably the best infield in Baseball. 

There is no comparison to us. 

Ok, then everyone but the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros should just forfeit their seasons.

Too many loser mentalities in this message board and fanabse.  

I don't give up, I keep playing.  No matter how undermanned my team looks.  You get in, you have a chance.  And that's fact. 

[T R U]

8 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Ok, then everyone but the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros should just forfeit their seasons.

Too many loser mentalities in this message board and fanabse.  

I don't give up, I keep playing.  No matter how undermanned my team looks.  You get in, you have a chance.  And that's fact. 

It’s not giving up acknowledging the team has serious fatal flaws as currently constructed, it’s fact. 
 

These 5 games against the Royals are going to be huge, it’s a golden opportunity to get some momentum going after the poor showing against the Yankees who we unfortunately are about to see again. 

[SonofaRoache]

13 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Ok, then everyone but the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros should just forfeit their seasons.

Too many loser mentalities in this message board and fanabse.  

I don't give up, I keep playing.  No matter how undermanned my team looks.  You get in, you have a chance.  And that's fact. 

You don't need to give up. But using other teams as examples isn't wise with our differences in success. There is enough data since the ASB of last year to show we have got to get a lot better. 

[FoxForce2]

18 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Ok, then everyone but the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros should just forfeit their seasons.

Too many loser mentalities in this message board and fanabse.  

I don't give up, I keep playing.  No matter how undermanned my team looks.  You get in, you have a chance.  And that's fact. 

Yes and no. The Braves are a winning organization and have been for years. They are contenders that navigate their way into the playoffs at a high frequency rate. The Sox are green at this level of performance. There is no history of sustained superior performance at the team level, in the 21st Century at least. To simply say that "Well geeze, the Braves had a mediocre regular season and still won the WS." and compare that to a team like the Sox isn't a realistic proposal. Sure the Sox could go on a tear and make the playoffs, but there is no parallel between this iteration of the Sox and a team that is consistently in the running over the course of decades. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by FoxForce2

[caulfield12]

50 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Please stop using the Braves as an example folks. Prior to winning it all they won 3 straight division titles in a much better division than we've seen the last few years. In 2020 they played in the NLCS and were one win away from the WS. That's before you factor in they had arguably the best infield in Baseball. 

There is no comparison to us. 

And one of the 2 best young outfielders in Acuna, Jr.

[caulfield12]

48 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Ok, then everyone but the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros should just forfeit their seasons.

Too many loser mentalities in this message board and fanabse.  

I don't give up, I keep playing.  No matter how undermanned my team looks.  You get in, you have a chance.  And that's fact. 

 Look at the 2010 and 2012 seasons as prime examples, or early 2016.

White Sox fans are VERY discriminating about knowing whether their team can realistically compete in the postseason.

Other than 2003, 2005-06...the last two years were the first two post-seasons where Sox fans EXPECTED to win...although there was certainly a tremendous amount of concern about HFA and the regular season results against Houston was well as their four consecutive ALCS appearances.

The White Sox fans are closer to the Tampa Bay Rays, A's, Tigers, Twins and Indians in terms of general/overall fan expectations.  We definitely don't handle being a favorite well, with a few notable exceptions.    That and one of the very best teams (1994) getting wiped out by the strike and the White Flag Trade have only served to add to this inferiority complex, as well as being buried by the Cubs this last decade.

 

We still retain that small or mid-market/limited budget/never give out money to one superstar to mitigate risk mentality.   This whole "blue collar/labor/diminishing union" vs. Northside Yuppies making money in high finance thing.

That's simply never going to change with this ownership group, regardless of all the previous braggadocio from Kenny Williams while he was GM.

Edited May 16, 2022 by caulfield12

[SoxAce]

Clearly Hahn is gonna pull a AA and acquire needs at the deadline to help this team right...... yea right. 

[Greg Hibbard]

The jury is just way out on this, and everyone is in a huge rush to call this season one way or another - it’s been a bit exhausting.

These first six weeks have been an extended spring training because of the lockout. A bunch of teams are playing inconsistently all over both leagues. Yes, some red hot teams, and some nice starts from teams you expected to be there. Baseball is still a marathon and we are 20% done. 

We just got a huge piece back in Yoan that we literally didn’t have for the first 5 weeks and the dividends paid off in that Saturday win vs the Yanks. Now we have Vaughn back. Next we get Eloy and Lance back.

We lost today, yes. We are still going to lose 70-75 games this year no matter what, even if things go as right as possible moving forward. Are we going to be some worldbeating team even at full strength, as-is? No. I don’t think anyone even thought that going into day one -  I think everyone was rightfully concerned they didn’t add more in the off-season and that we knew this team had flaws.

From my perspective, given the lockout and the state of the offseason market, i always thought the front offices job was going to be - stay as healthy as possible, and identify needs at the deadline -  and open the pocketbook and go for it. It seems to me that Pollock, Engel, McGuire and Leury may not be viable major league assets moving forward. Abreu may be done and we need to evaluate that in real time. We need to add veteran journeyman players from sellers. I don’t think that will be hard if we make a financial commitment to do so and are willing to part with certain assets. 
 

 

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Clearly Hahn is gonna pull a AA and acquire needs at the deadline to help this team right...... yea right. 

Budget is already up against the limit, lol.   The "biggest" additions are going to come from Eloy, Lynn, Bummer, etc., returning to the active roster.  Kimbrel trade taught us of the risk with trying to do too much...which impacted the long-term window and didn't result in short-term benefits, blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

And that's WITHOUT Cueto factored into the equation.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

The jury is just way out on this, and everyone is in a huge rush to call this season one way or another - it’s been a bit exhausting.

These first six weeks have been an extended spring training because of the lockout. A bunch of teams are playing inconsistently all over both leagues. Yes, some red hot teams, and some nice starts from teams you expected to be there. Baseball is still a marathon and we are 20% done. 

We just got a huge piece back in Yoan that we literally didn’t have for the first 5 weeks and the dividends paid off in that Saturday win vs the Yanks. Now we have Vaughn back. Next we get Eloy and Lance back.

We lost today, yes. We are still going to lose 70-75 games this year no matter what, even if things go as right as possible moving forward. Are we going to be some worldbeating team even at full strength, as-is? No. I don’t think anyone even thought that going into day one -  I think everyone was rightfully concerned they didn’t add more in the off-season and that we knew this team had flaws.

From my perspective, given the lockout and the state of the offseason market, i always thought the front offices job was going to be - stay as healthy as possible, and identify needs at the deadline -  and open the pocketbook and go for it. It seems to me that Pollock, Engel, McGuire and Leury may not be viable major league assets moving forward. Abreu may be done and we need to evaluate that in real time. We need to add veteran journeyman players from sellers. I don’t think that will be hard if we make a financial commitment to do so and are willing to part with certain assets. 
 

What in God's name makes you think we have the right partnership between TLR and Hahn that this would even be possible, based on the track record of the past decade plus in this area?

We are already at risk of entirely writing off million and millions of salary in guys like Harrison, Keuchel and Pollock...that's not even considering Grandal, Kelly and Abreu.

Or the possibility that Lynn will struggle just like those QO guys who start their seasons halfway through the never manage to get up to speed.

Just looking at 2B, from drafting Madrigal, then going from NOT trading for Escobar (due to his supposed quad issues), then Cesar Hernandez falling off a cliff and now Josh Harrison and Leury...it's going from one debacle to another for ONE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY EASIEST positions to fill.  If we can't even get that much right, it's pretty hard to be optimistic?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

 

 

 

[Greg Hibbard]

22 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

What in God's name makes you think we have the right partnership between TLR and Hahn that this would even be possible, based on the track record of the past decade plus in this area?

We are already at risk of entirely writing off million and millions of salary in guys like Harrison, Keuchel and Pollock...that's not even considering Grandal, Kelly and Abreu.

Or the possibility that Lynn will struggle just like those QO guys who start their seasons halfway through the never manage to get up to speed.

Just looking at 2B, from drafting Madrigal, then going from NOT trading for Escobar (due to his supposed quad issues), then Cesar Hernandez falling off a cliff and now Josh Harrison and Leury...it's going from one debacle to another for ONE OF THE SUPPOSEDLY EASIEST positions to fill.  If we can't even get that much right, it's pretty hard to be optimistic?

 

 

 

Yes, I agree it’s hard to be optimistic. But rather than throw in the towel and say “well, it’s a doomed season” I suppose I would counter with

1) TLR won 94 games as a manager last season, and

2) Hahn acquired who everyone in baseball thought were good acquisitions in Kimbrel and Hernandez. As we all know, he has been dead right about some things (Giolito, Robert, Moncada, Anderson) and dead wrong about some others. 

I think identifying what pieces we need is the key. I guess what I would say is I would much rather identify four black holes in late May than have mediocre to garbage players get artificially hot and then come back to earth when we need them most (cough 2000 cough) We just need guys who are NOT black holes in the lineup. 
 

I actually am optimistic that if we manage Lynn’s workload he’ll hopefully be ok. Kopech and Cease honestly look mostly great (not always - like every pitcher). I’m not concerned that the rotation and bullpen wont round into form - I’m skeptical of four players in our lineup and I think that’s much easier to fix.

[South Side Hit Men]

Alex Anthopolous has a solid track record across three top MLB teams.

July 2021 Trade Deadline Transactions: Acquired 

• Adam Duvall (1.2 bWAR final two months)
• Jorge Soler (1.1)
• Eddie Rosario (0.5) and
• Joc Pederson (0.2) at the deadline, for negligible pieces.

Rick Hahn was promoted from Assistant General Manager to the General Manager role in October 2012.

July 2021 Trade Deadline Transactions: Acquired

• Ryan Tepera (0.6 bWAR final two months)
• Craig Kimbrel (0.0) and
• Cesar Hernandez (-0.7),
• Stuck with Brian Goodwin (-0.5) as his primary Right Fielder for the final two months, after cutting bait on Adam Eaton.

 

[greg775]

Sox are a lousy team right now but like u say, most teams stink in the Central.

Royals win an exciting game today; Sox lose 3 of 4 to NYY. I stand by my saying. We better win the first game of this five game series or it could get ugly with Sox losing 4 or 5 to KC. If Sox lose all five, heads have to roll figuratively speaking. Bye bye Tony.

[Jack Parkman]

The Sox are bad, m'kay. 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Yes, I agree it’s hard to be optimistic. But rather than throw in the towel and say “well, it’s a doomed season” I suppose I would counter with

1) TLR won 94 games as a manager last season, and

2) Hahn acquired who everyone in baseball thought were good acquisitions in Kimbrel and Hernandez. As we all know, he has been dead right about some things (Giolito, Robert, Moncada, Anderson) and dead wrong about some others. 

I think identifying what pieces we need is the key. I guess what I would say is I would much rather identify four black holes in late May than have mediocre to garbage players get artificially hot and then come back to earth when we need them most (cough 2000 cough) We just need guys who are NOT black holes in the lineup. 
 

I actually am optimistic that if we manage Lynn’s workload he’ll hopefully be ok. Kopech and Cease honestly look mostly great (not always - like every pitcher). I’m not concerned that the rotation and bullpen wont round into form - I’m skeptical of four players in our lineup and I think that’s much easier to fix.

Responding to that earlier note, Billy Hamilton also had a 0.3 fWAR last year, he actually was a net positive in more ways than one for team energy/motivation/enthusiasm...

 

Pollock had a 3.0 fWAR for LA last year and can opt into a deal for next with incentives for PA's, so I can hardly imagine they're not going to give him a huge amount of playing time between now and the return of Jimenez.

Grandal, there's very little you can do about.  And find a solid back-up catcher to substitute for McGuire who can ALSO hit, good luck!!!

Abreu, you have to play him in May, June and July...at the very least.

Vaughn...play every day, pretty much

That leaves you with Engel, Leury and Sheets.   Sheets has to DH against RHP, Leury and Engel to share RF with Leury also rotating on the infield.

 

Harrison...along with RF, that's the most obvious area in need of improvement that you can address, and hopefully the answer isn't simply playing Leury there more.

When Jimenez comes back, it seems almost automatic they'll move Pollock back to RF.

Eventually, if Abreu continues to struggle, as well as Grandal, you have to split LF and DH with Jimenez, Vaughn and Sheets.   But you should never play anyone but Pollock, Engel or Leury in RF.   Probably shouldn't even play Pollock unless you have to get his bat in the line-up when he goes on a tear/streak.

 

We're back to the same two issues (2B and RF) that we spent almost the entire off season obsessing over.

For 2B, Jean Segura (big contract), Brandon Drury (NL to AL), Adam Frazier (Mariners, probably unavailable), Ketel Marte (not sure AZ sells so low), Cesar Hernandez (no go) and Kemp are the only with positive fWAR's.

RF would be Austin Hays, maybe Castellanos (probably too expensive), Santander, Pavin Smith (AZ), Tyler Naquin (fathom already noted), and Adolis Garcia (not sure the cost or if Texas is even interested in moving him).

So the MOST impactful moves would be Segura (if Philly throws in the towel) and Austin Hays.   Not sure how much you're moving the bar.  And definitely not buying into the likelihood that the DBacks will move Ketel Marte for 75 or 80 cents on the dollar.

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by caulfield12

[Tony]

9 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Ask the Braves.

Not sure why some of you guys always assume the best regular season teams will always come out on top.

If you get in and healthy ( being the key ) you always have a chance.

I’ll explain it to you. 

I’m not ok just getting into the playoffs and “seeing what happens.” The Astros, who out classed the Sox in 2021, have made 5 straight ALCS. That’s not luck. 

The attitude your describing is the attitude the Sox have taken, which has earned them one of the most depressing 100 year stretches for any professional franchise. 

I’m not going to apologize for wanting more. You shouldn’t either. 
 

 

[Texsox]

I had them as a third place team and missing the playoffs. So far I'm seeing a team that can meet those *lofty* expectations, and a team that plays like a WS contender in stretches. 

No one gets through a season healthy. Everyone loses starters for stretches. We could hope and believe all of ours have happened, but I think we know someone is going on the IR in the next two weeks. We just don't know who.

I'll keep watching with low expectations and won't be disappointed.