Hahn’s 2022 Offseason (So Far)

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

How can we call Robert consistent?  He is one of the streakiest players I have ever seen.  Remember all the "sky is falling" reaction during his 0-19?

Moncada came back literally a week ago and has looked solid if unspectacular, which is what we have all been saying about him (very good but not great).  Vaughn has been one of the highlights early on in the season at the plate.  

If you read my note, I said that the White Sox prospects have largely performed as expected.  The pieces Rick added on (Harrison, Leury, McGuire, Pollock) are black holes.

Because he consistently hits the ball hard.

This notion that any hitter alive is some consistent form of production is nonsense. Even when Robert was "struggling" he was smacking baseballs around.

I'd argue Vaughn has also been consistent as even when he wasn't getting hits he was hitting the ball hard.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Vaughn has looked terrible since his injury. 

Too early to say one way or another on Moncada, it's been 7 games. 

I think the biggest issue that the Sox are facing is the possible age related regression of Abreu and Grandal. 

Jack, it's been four games. I know you were all-in on this wrist bruise is going to ruin Vaughn, but can we not have these absurd 4 game sample commentaries please. JFC

[bmags]

did anyone see Jean Segura's start lol

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

19 minutes ago, bmags said:

did anyone see Jean Segura's start lol

I liked Segura but not many others did. He's always been pretty healthy, a professional hitter and could've been a valuable piece to back up at SS also. He's surrounded by mashers in that lineup so not sure how he would've fared here amongst the non walking dead.

That was early in the "what could we get for Kimbrel" speculation.

[T R U]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Jack, it's been four games. I know you were all-in on this wrist bruise is going to ruin Vaughn, but can we not have these absurd 4 game sample commentaries please. JFC

Well I mean he did hit .286 with a 1.587 OPS in his 2 games in Charlotte so I would counter Jacks argument and say that he is even better than before the injury.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Jack, it's been four games. I know you were all-in on this wrist bruise is going to ruin Vaughn, but can we not have these absurd 4 game sample commentaries please. JFC

This is like asking degenerate gambler to take a year off.  

[Harold's Leg Lift]

4 hours ago, bighurt574 said:

The frustrating one to me is how we’ve now passed on Castellanos multiple times.  The guy just produces, at a reasonable enough price too. 

A big consistent bat in the middle of the lineup sure would be nice.  

[Jose Abreu]

20 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

A big consistent bat in the middle of the lineup sure would be nice.  

We have Gavin Sheets already. What more could you want?

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

We have Gavin Sheets already. What more could you want?

A big consistent bat in the middle of the lineup?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

We have Gavin Sheets already. What more could you want?

Robinson Cano had two hits yesterday.

[hankchifan]

12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m going to keep this very simple and fact based, but will acknowledge this is an incredibly early post audit and things could greatly change by the end of the season.

• AJ Pollock ($11.5M, -0.4 fWAR, 63 wRC+, 5th %tile OAA)
• Leury Garcia ($5.5M, -0.4 fWAR, 38 wRC+, 11th %tile OAA)
• Josh Harrison ($4.0M, -0.1 fWAR, 58 wRC+, 37th %tile OAA)
• Reese McGuire ($0.7M, -0.1 fWAR, 7 wRC+, 42 %tile framing)
• Kendall Graveman ($8.0M, 0.5 fWAR, 1.94 FIP, 2.76 xFIP)
• Joe Kelly ($7.0M, 0.0 fWAR, 6.42 FIP, 7.79 xFIP)
• Vince Velasquez ($3.0M, 0.0 fWAR, 5.51 FIP, 4.63 xFIP)
• Johnny Cueto ($3.2M, 0.2 fWAR, 1.75 FIP, 2.67 xFIP
• Total = -0.3 fWAR for ~$9M of pro-rated spend

In total, Hahn committed $43M in payroll this year, gave up Kimbrel & Collins, and passed on offering Rodon a QO to acquire these eight players and it’s hard to imagine getting a worse return on investment.  Outside of Graveman (who has been excellent) and one quality start from Cueto, every other guy has been replacement player or worse so far.

Now to be clear, I expect most of these guys to improve.  That being said, Harrison looks completed cook and a total waste of $5.5M (including his buyout).  Committing three years to Leury is an inexcusable move for a versatile, but below average player.  And that looks even worse with Yogurt & Sosa off to strong starts and Popeye also not too far off.  Finally, only adding Velasquez when you say you need SP depth coming out of the lockout should be a fireable offense.  We could all see this pain coming expect for Hahn apparently.

Regardless of all that, there are so many better things we could have done with $43M and Hahn continues to find the way to spread his dollars across multiple needs that should be filled by a minor league system cheaply (utility guys, relievers, swing men) instead of adding legit impact talent.  Let’s hope Pollock turns things around soon as he’s the only guy Hahn added that has an impact type ceiling.

In summary, Hahn gets rated an F, including  no  quality LH outfielder added.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, hankchifan said:

In summary, Hahn gets rated an F, including  no  quality LH outfielder added.

This is pretty much what we spent the entire offseason asserting.

Graveman has been the one solid move out of many.

[Colome's Hat]

The optimist in me is saying this is a repeat of 2012 but this time the White Sox are the Tigers.  The Record is comparable.  And the Twins could be the 2012 White Sox.   Like I think they have a really good chance of running out of gas by the end of the season.

 

I think the moves were solid.  This team should be playing a lot better than it is.   I do think they should have gone after a 2nd Baseman.  I'm ok with Pollock and think he'll turn it around.  At what point do you blame front office and what point do you blame players for straight up underperforming?

Edited May 19, 2022 by Colome's Hat

[South Side Hit Men]

[Richie]

1 hour ago, Colome's Hat said:

The optimist in me is saying this is a repeat of 2012 but this time the White Sox are the Tigers.  The Record is comparable.  And the Twins could be the 2012 White Sox.   Like I think they have a really good chance of running out of gas by the end of the season.

 

I think the moves were solid.  This team should be playing a lot better than it is.   I do think they should have gone after a 2nd Baseman.  I'm ok with Pollock and think he'll turn it around.  At what point do you blame front office and what point do you blame players for straight up underperforming?

I don't know. But... this officially marks the first day that I am truly concerned about this team and have legitimate doubts about whether or not they'll get it together. There's plenty of time, but I've watched too many days of the same old song/dance over and over to stick with my "Ah, it'll be alright" attitude. I am not saying we're screwed, but I don't know if it will be alright anymore. This is really ugly right now. Nothing is showing signs of changing. I was hoping by now that we would at least be trending in the right direction. That most of our struggling bats would have their OBP's and SLG%'s showing signs of life and trending upward. 

Watching this team currently feels like a chore. When they fall down by more than one run, it feels like it might as well be a hundred runs. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 hours ago, Spumoni said:

To be fair, didn't Kenny and Rick have the same idea with Kimbrel last year?  That was obviously intended to be the home run move and definitely didn't work out, though TLR's usage of him was stupid for sure.

How could TLR's usage of him be stupid? We had a closer, a very good closer. Trading for Kimbrel was just another way to avoid paying for a bat and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Atlanta picked up 4 bats and look what it did for them. And after a full off season we still didn't get any LH bats.

Every move Hahn's made since Kimbrel and Hernandez has sucked so far except for Graveman.Harrison, Leury 3 yrs, Velasquez, injured Kelly, picking up Kimbrels option, trading for Pollock, no QO to Rodon, no LH batters added, no starting pitcher of significance, prioritizing relief pitchers over improving the lineup. That kind of record of futility is quite impressive.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

How could TLR's usage of him be stupid? We had a closer, a very good closer. Trading for Kimbrel was just another way to avoid paying for a bat and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Atlanta picked up 4 bats and look what it did for them. And after a full off season we still didn't get any LH bats.

Every move Hahn's made since Kimbrel and Hernandez has sucked so far except for Graveman.Harrison, Leury 3 yrs, Velasquez, injured Kelly, picking up Kimbrels option, trading for Pollock, no QO to Rodon, no LH batters added, no starting pitcher of significance, prioritizing relief pitchers over improving the lineup. That kind of record of futility is quite impressive.

Cueto lol.  For at least one start before he gets brutalized by the East and West.

We could conceivably pitch VV Keuchel and Cueto in NYC depending on what happens with Kopech and if they start Cease on normal rest Sunday or go with Cueto (extra day of rest) as part of what would (likely) be a temporary six man rotation.

[Sarava]

15 hours ago, Spumoni said:

That's a fair point.  I was referring more to Parkman's statement that players are overrated based on prospect value. I don't think that's fair to Vaughn (and the others mentioned above) by stating that Vaughn is largely doing what he should have been expected to and failing in a spot that he never should have been put into.

Now do I think the organization overrates Vaughn's ability in the outfield and failed by putting us in the position where we have a bunch of 1Bs running around in the outfield?  Absolutely.   

My greater point in general was that I think that the prospects gathered in the rebuild have, for the most part, come to form a solid core.  It's specifically Hahn's failure to surround that core with pieces that make this a better team that is the primary issue we are dealing with right now.

I agree, for the most part they have made a solid core. A couple of the guys have left me wanting more (Eloy and Moncada specifically), but they still have time to fulfill their potential.

But to your point on Hahn. I 100% agree. Last winter, a number of us were getting a little cranky with the moves or lack of moves Hahn was making, and unfortunately, it's panned out how we feared, or even worse. Hahn has done a horrible job augmenting this core. I don't know how you can spin it any other way. Blatantly ignoring glaring holes on the team. Hell, he even opened up this 2B hole last summer that didn't need to be opened up. He not only hasn't filled the holes well, but his bad moves have created even more holes on the team.

All this said, TLR has made it clear over the years how obsessed he is with strong bullpens. And KW has always been the guy to bring in players after their prime. So this is where I wonder if Hahn's hands are tied? I'm not convinced he is pulling the strings here. Last winter's moves are more traits of KW (the aging star acquisitions) and TLR (the bullpen and utility player moves) than of Hahn IMO. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Sarava said:

I agree, for the most part they have made a solid core. A couple of the guys have left me wanting more (Eloy and Moncada specifically), but they still have time to fulfill their potential.

But to your point on Hahn. I 100% agree. Last winter, a number of us were getting a little cranky with the moves or lack of moves Hahn was making, and unfortunately, it's panned out how we feared, or even worse. Hahn has done a horrible job augmenting this core. I don't know how you can spin it any other way. Blatantly ignoring glaring holes on the team. Hell, he even opened up this 2B hole last summer that didn't need to be opened up. He not only hasn't filled the holes well, but his bad moves have created even more holes on the team.

All this said, TLR has made it clear over the years how obsessed he is with strong bullpens. And KW has always been the guy to bring in players after their prime. So this is where I wonder if Hahn's hands are tied? I'm not convinced he is pulling the strings here. Last winter's moves are more traits of KW (the aging star acquisitions) and TLR (the bullpen and utility player moves) than of Hahn IMO. 

We might have missed out on LaStella for 2B. SFG front office doesn't make many mistakes.  They now have so many LH hitters they can afford to send down Luis Gonzalez when he's hitting .349.

"Tommy is one of the better plate appearances in baseball, it's as simple as that," Kapler said. "He has great discipline, fouls pitches off, (is) extremely competitive in the batter's box. Kind of the epitome of what we want our hitters to do: Make a lot of contact, drive the baseball occasionally, draw a walk here and there and keep the line moving, which Tommy does exceptionally well.'

Total opposite of the White Sox approach pretty much.

Edited May 19, 2022 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Sarava said:

All this said, TLR has made it clear over the years how obsessed he is with strong bullpens. And KW has always been the guy to bring in players after their prime. So this is where I wonder if Hahn's hands are tied? I'm not convinced he is pulling the strings here. Last winter's moves are more traits of KW (the aging star acquisitions) and TLR (the bullpen and utility player moves) than of Hahn IMO. 

I’m ok with all Rick Hahn slander if deserved, which most of it is - but in press reports they all but said Joe Kelly in particular was a decision/request/order/whatever made by the manager. How that fits into the rest of the offseason I won’t guess beyond what I know.

 

[South Side Hit Men]

Still a lot of cost controlled valuable players, hope they don't let it go to waste.

Per MLB Trade Values:

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/teams/467/

High Current Value

• Robert $123.6M (2017 - Marco Paddy)
• Cease $70.8M (2017 - Jose Quintana Trade)
• Giolito $61.6M (2016 - Adam Eaton Trade)
• Anderson $59.1M (2013 - First Round Draft Pick)
• Vaughn $41.9M (2019 - First Round Draft Pick)
• Kopech $39.0M (2016 - Chris Sale Trade)
• Hendriks $28.4M (2021 - Free Agent Signing)
• Moncada $25.7M (2016 - Chris Sale Trade)
• Crochet $11.7M (2020 - First Round Draft Pick)
• Bryan Ramos $11.0M (2018 - Marco Paddy)

Excess Current Value

• Keuchel -$12.8M (2020 - Free Agent Signing)
• Pollock -$6.8M  (2022 - Craig Kimbrel Trade)
• Kelly -$5.4M  (2022 - Free Agent Signing)
• Lynn -$5.1M (2021 - Contract Extension)
• Jimenez -$5.1M  (2017 - Jose Quintana Trade)
• Leury Garcia -$1.4M (2022 - Free Agent Signing)

[Dick Allen]

6 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

I’m ok with all Rick Hahn slander if deserved, which most of it is - but in press reports they all but said Joe Kelly in particular was a decision/request/order/whatever made by the manager. How that fits into the rest of the offseason I won’t guess beyond what I know.

 

After watching what happened to the DBacks when Tony took over, it is mindboggling another organization would give him any say in personnel, let alone perhaps the final say. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

On 5/18/2022 at 11:57 AM, Jack Parkman said:

We need to stop overrating our players. 

A lot of these guys are riding on prospect reputation rather than what they've done in MLB. 

For once I wholeheartedly agree with Parkman. This is the issue I keep seeing with this board during the off season. People who ignored how bad the off season turned out to be because they somehow believed this core was a lot better they actually have shown and this is easily still a playoff team. Part of it is people were still valuing the players based on their former top 5 or 10 prospect reputation, other part of it is not realizing how good other teams or other players actually are. In reality no one on this team will finish top 10 in MVP voting for one reason or another. Robert and Eloy won’t likely play for than 120 games. Moncada isn’t the 30/30 MVP caliber player we thought he’d be. Vaughn hasn’t yet develop into the middle of the order bat we thought he could be. Madrigal is gone. We have some pretty awesome pitchers but that ain’t enough to carry this dreadful offense. We can blame injuries but that’s always going to be there with this group.

It isn’t as if we didn’t see this coming. The Sox basically played .500 baseball since the ASB last year and got embarrassed by the astros in the playoffs. Perhaps the 1st half was an aberration and .500 baseball is what we could expect from this team and this manager.

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

On 5/18/2022 at 9:41 AM, JoeC said:

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

He addressed (1) and (2) by acquiring Pollock

#4 has proven to be miraculously OK.

#3 is obviously still a shit show.

If this team were healthy (Lynn, Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and players were performing up to par (basically everyone except for Vaughn and the TA's bat), we wouldn't be talking about this.

Could Hahn have done more? Yeah, probably - but to blame him for this team underperforming is misplaced blame IMO.

It seems like he failed at all 4 of the points you mentioned, not sure if you are being serious asking if he could have done more.

1) Wouldn’t have been an issue had they declined his option, or better yet not trade for him…

2) They brought in an injury prone at RF so you could use the injury excuse at the end.

3) Big F.

4) How is this not a failure? Even if you want to use the injury excuse Keuchel was still penciled in as the 5th starter with everyone healthy. That is an absolute failure. 

5) Again you used the injury excuse. It’s like no one has seen that one coming. What has Hahn done to add depth to this team?

[JoeC]

2 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

It seems like he failed at all 4 of the points you mentioned, not sure if you are being serious asking if he could have done more.

 1) Wouldn’t have been an issue had they declined his option, or better yet not trade for him…

2) They brought in an injury prone at RF so you could use the injury excuse at the end.

3) Big F.

4) How is this not a failure? Even if you want to use the injury excuse Keuchel was still penciled in as the 5th starter with everyone healthy. That is an absolute failure. 

5) Again you used the injury excuse. It’s like no one has seen that one coming. What has Hahn done to add depth to this team?

Honestly, I'm realizing that I had a skewed view of Hahn's offseason.

I'll make the case that picking up Kimbrel's option and trading him was the right move (sunk cost, get something in return... which he managed to do). Other than that, I think I stand corrected.