Hahn’s 2022 Offseason (So Far)

[Spumoni]

10 minutes ago, bighurt574 said:

Harrison was an awful signing, but most of the FA 2B have struggled too (especially Semien and Story at the top).  

I think the bigger issue is that Harrison is just more of what we have constantly done in the past in signing veterans past their prime who are cooked by the time they get here (Eaton, Rollins, probably Pollock, and countless more).  If Semien/Story were signed and failed to perform it would be hard to blame Hahn for it.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Spumoni

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It’s pretty wild that it keeps happening over and over.  I figured Hahn would finally push some chips in once we hit the peak of the competitive window and instead the dude went with another spread the wealth type offseason.  And unfortunately instead of using that money on a legit SP and a solid everyday 2B, we’ll need to tap into an improving, but still weak farm system to address our needs at the deadline.  If Bryan Ramos is still a part of this organization by August 1st color me surprised.

In 2015, that team had so many needs at the deadline if it was going to be competitive and so many guys being paid good money to struggle that Hahn threw his hands up, declared “if we keep playing like this we’ll be right there at the end” and did nothing. I think there’s a decent chance something like that happens here. 

What are they going to do, a makeover with like 5 new guys coming in? Cut and or bench that many guys, almost all of whom are on veteran deals? With their payroll already high? Count me skeptical.

[The Grinder]

Hahn aint worth a shit and neither is Tony. But yt JR stands loyal and wont enforce accountability.

Kind of like Hotel California. You can check out but never leave

[bmags]

The problem with Harrison is we had a lineup that was too groundball prone, too little power and too right handed in the playoffs and there were plenty of complementary  players, or at least enough. But they let players that were good complements leave because the Sox know REAL market value then overpay for the trash left behind.

Harrison exacerbates all of our worst tendencies, which may have been okay if they added phenom at defense but he is not that either.

Him sucking was incredibly predictable.

Adam Frazier, Wendle, Escobar we’re all reasonable for 2b to acquire, all providing average to above average production vs RHp so far. Not all fix groundball prone or OBP, but they at least boosted us vs RHP

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, EloyJenkins said:

While we all wanted stronger moves...it is important to point out that FAs in general have been pretty awful for what was supposed to be an elite class. 

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2022/05/17/shortstops-panic-meter-the-opener

Here’s the thing that’s been true throughout Hahn’s tenure - building a team through free agency or even finding substantial parts has long been a terrible plan. 

In almost every case, for a guy to become a free agent, the team that has the guy has enough money to keep them if they really wanted to, and they’ve decided there’s a better way to spend their money. This is already telling you something - most free agent bets are sucker bets, the team that knows the player best already booed out of the way. I did a check last time they were trying to compete and roughly 75% of deals were things you wouldn’t do again.

This is why even when a deal works out for a veteran it might not be a smart thing. If you trade away a cheap guy for a veteran, even if it works out - you still need another cheap guy to replace them somewhere. If you are in a position where your team can’t win without big free agent successes, your team can’t win.

[JoeC]

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

He addressed (1) and (2) by acquiring Pollock

#4 has proven to be miraculously OK.

#3 is obviously still a shit show.

If this team were healthy (Lynn, Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and players were performing up to par (basically everyone except for Vaughn and the TA's bat), we wouldn't be talking about this.

Could Hahn have done more? Yeah, probably - but to blame him for this team underperforming is misplaced blame IMO.

[Saufley]

6 minutes ago, Tnetennba said:

I’ve generally been in his corner during the rebuild and think he had a good vision of building from the ground up.  But I have lost all respect for him post TLR.  He shares responsibility for this mess and this FO should not be in charge of righting the ship. 

Agree! But this all starts at the top with Reinsdorf! Again, I say that Hahn should have resigned when he was forced to sign La Russa, but I guess the GM title was too important to him.  I'm getting close to the point where I just don't care anymore!!

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, JoeC said:

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

He addressed (1) and (2) by acquiring Pollock

#4 has proven to be miraculously OK.

#3 is obviously still a shit show.

If this team were healthy (Lynn, Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and players were performing up to par (basically everyone except for Vaughn and the TA's bat), we wouldn't be talking about this.

Could Hahn have done more? Yeah, probably - but to blame him for this team underperforming is misplaced blame IMO.

After all no one could have predicted this team would be dealing with injuries, am I right?

[Bob Sacamano]

I keep telling myself that they are not fully healthy yet (and honestly, may never will be) and to not completely judge them yet. Things do need to change like their approach at the plate. Fortunately, we are 18-18 currently in our toughest stretch in the season looking at the schedule. Survive that and we should be in good shape because I don't think any other team in our division is going to run away with it.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[White Sox Park]

I was obsessed with getting Eduardo Escobar and J. D. Martinez . we got the same over the hill guys that we usually acquire, and that's weird, because that is Ken Williams trade mark, so i wonder how much leverage Hahn actually has . for me, the only redeeming quality for Rick Hahn, is that i think he just might dislike Tony LaRussa as much as i do.

[Snopek]

33 minutes ago, JoeC said:

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

He addressed (1) and (2) by acquiring Pollock

#4 has proven to be miraculously OK.

#3 is obviously still a shit show.

If this team were healthy (Lynn, Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and players were performing up to par (basically everyone except for Vaughn and the TA's bat), we wouldn't be talking about this.

Could Hahn have done more? Yeah, probably - but to blame him for this team underperforming is misplaced blame IMO.

That’s not how a GM should operate, though. The “if everything goes our way” thoughts should be left to fans.

[bmags]

17 minutes ago, JoeC said:

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

He addressed (1) and (2) by acquiring Pollock

#4 has proven to be miraculously OK.

#3 is obviously still a shit show.

If this team were healthy (Lynn, Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and players were performing up to par (basically everyone except for Vaughn and the TA's bat), we wouldn't be talking about this.

Could Hahn have done more? Yeah, probably - but to blame him for this team underperforming is misplaced blame IMO.

I disagree those were the issues per se.

After the playoffs, I think we all wanted team to aim to be the best in playoffs not just best in ALC. What the common weaknesses were that were discussed were

1) Way too groundball heavy.
2) Way too right handed/way too poor vs. RHP
3) Poor Defense
4) Pitching staff that cannot find strike zone in high leverage

My pet one was that I thought staff was too fastball heavy as a staff which playoff teams crush. I actually think Kelly/Graveman was about this and did improve it.

I'd say none of 1-4 are really solved but Pollock helped with 2. It seemed like 3 would be helped but now hes being put in LF and RF is the same.

[southsider2k5]

Here's the thing I don't get.  They saw that they needed to be deeper in pitching, especially in the pen.  They obvious knew that starters weren't going to go as deep for a lot of the season, and that injuries could be a thing.

But with the line up, they didn't seem to factor in that the same thing could/would happen.  They seemed scared to add a legitimate starting position player.  I have seen the justifications for not adding Conforto and yes the fans didn't know that.  +1 for Rick.  But the rest of the off-season was a contest to see what the absolute minimum they could do to fill a roster was.  While the rest of baseball was adding to loaded rosters, the Sox acted like they had won 105 games last year and made the World Series and were a bench player away.

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, JoeC said:

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

He addressed (1) and (2) by acquiring Pollock

#4 has proven to be miraculously OK.

#3 is obviously still a shit show.

If this team were healthy (Lynn, Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and players were performing up to par (basically everyone except for Vaughn and the TA's bat), we wouldn't be talking about this.

Could Hahn have done more? Yeah, probably - but to blame him for this team underperforming is misplaced blame IMO.

Why did we have to hold Kimbrel's option to add a player who can't even play RF acceptably, and might very well be on the 2023 roster too?

We still have guys like Vaughn Sheets and Engel who all are for various reasons not a regular RF either.

That was also supposed to help against RHP.

No QO for Rodon.

No real look at Luis Gonzalez for regular PT the last two years.

 

And it doesn't seem like VV discovered anything new...I guess we are fortunate to be 4-6 overall in VV Cueto Lambert Martin starts so far.

3-7 or even 2-8 seemed possible with how bad the defense bullpen offensive/RISP has been.

 

Finally they need much better offensive numbers out of Reese McGuire if he's going to get so many starts...

 

[South Side Hit Men]

55 minutes ago, JoeC said:

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

• 1. You didn't have to "unload" Kimbrel if you didn't pick up the option.
• 2. & 3. - Hahn had at least 3 years to address RF and 2B, and have failed at each and every attempt. Pollock is not a RF, has never played RF, doesn't have the arm or experience to play RF. He is yet another LF added to the pile of LF/DH broken toys on this team.
• 4. This team has lacked SP depth the past three years. They didn't even have 3 SPs available for the 2020 playoffs. The Lynn trade was good, but didn't like the premature extension. He hasn't been healthy since. Part was due to injuries, that happens. Part due to lack of development beyond Kopech, and banking on Crochet to ramp up to SP level over the next two years. Part of that was relying on old players (SP and in the lineup), which have a higher rate of both injuries and regression.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Although he’s hurt right now, easily the smartest answer was Joey Wendle.

Sure, but he wasn't a FA and that deal was done super early in the offseason.  Also guessing Rays really liked Misner, so its not like the Sox just had the ability to go get him for nothing. 

To be clear, I am not defending the moves at 2B at all.  Awful.  This team had literally just 2 offensive holes they badly needed filled by lefty bats, 1 self created, and they filled neither.  Doesn't make any sense. 

[bighurt574]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Here’s the thing that’s been true throughout Hahn’s tenure - building a team through free agency or even finding substantial parts has long been a terrible plan. 

In almost every case, for a guy to become a free agent, the team that has the guy has enough money to keep them if they really wanted to, and they’ve decided there’s a better way to spend their money. This is already telling you something - most free agent bets are sucker bets, the team that knows the player best already booed out of the way. I did a check last time they were trying to compete and roughly 75% of deals were things you wouldn’t do again.

This is why even when a deal works out for a veteran it might not be a smart thing. If you trade away a cheap guy for a veteran, even if it works out - you still need another cheap guy to replace them somewhere. If you are in a position where your team can’t win without big free agent successes, your team can’t win.

The frustrating one to me is how we’ve now passed on Castellanos multiple times.  The guy just produces, at a reasonable enough price too. 

[HOFHurt35]

The offseason was shit, but compounding the situation was the unexpected regression (free fall) from so many guys.  Add the injury factor once again,  shocked we are at .500 right now. 

 

 

[Tony]

The combination of Kenny and Rick oversee the entire organization. That goes beyond just the 40-man roster. That includes minor league roster construction, coaching staffs, analytic departments, scouting staffs, etc. 

The “good” news is I still believe they did a very good job assembling a core that would be ready to compete at a very high level, all in their primes. No easy task and I believe they successfully identified a very strong amount of talent from other organizations to acquire, and found ways to make it happen. 
 

The “bad” news is similar to the Bears who refuse to surround their key pieces (or piece in the current case of Fields) with the necessary talent needed, you have a flawed roster that has their window close prematurely. This includes a training staff that seemingly can’t keep those key investments on the field, as well as a manager who uses philosophies from the late 70’s in 2022. Additionally, when moves like trading Madrigal are made, they have no acceptable replacements ready to fill the void. Awful free agent additions add up to a pretty bad formula. 
 

 

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, bighurt574 said:

The frustrating one to me is how we’ve now passed on Castellanos multiple times.  The guy just produces, at a reasonable enough price too. 

Castellanos is just more of what this team already has.  He was and is a bad fit.  Not using the benefit of hindsight, I don't mind acquiring 1 year of Pollock over 4 years $100M of a guy that really just exacerbates our issues in Nick C.  Of course if you told me beforehand Pollock would forget to hit, that'd be different.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by ChiSox59

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

• 1. You didn't have to "unload" Kimbrel if you didn't pick up the option.
• 2. & 3. - Hahn had at least 3 years to address RF and 2B, and have failed at each and every attempt. Pollock is not a RF, has never played RF, doesn't have the arm or experience to play RF. He is yet another LF added to the pile of LF/DH broken toys on this team.
• 4. This team has lacked SP depth the past three years. They didn't even have 3 SPs available for the 2020 playoffs. The Lynn trade was good, but didn't like the premature extension. He hasn't been healthy since. Part was due to injuries, that happens. Part due to lack of development beyond Kopech, and banking on Crochet to ramp up to SP level over the next two years. Part of that was relying on old players (SP and in the lineup), which have a higher rate of both injuries and regression.

We did have Cease and Dunning, but Cease wasn't ready for a big start like that yet.  He still might not be.  Of course Rodon was used in the pen, one of the more obvious moves that cost Renteria his job when he was the best pitcher on the team the following season.  But instinct to use him there was off just like Kimbrel in 7th or 8th.

[JoeC]

Yeah obviously a GM needs to prepare for injuries. That said, how many super-extended absences should you have to prepare for?

RE: Kimbrel's option - IMO it was the right move to pick up the option on a top-5 closer (but bottom-5 setup man). He had value; to let him walk away for nothing made no sense.

Point definitely conceded on the Rodon QO. I've tried to erase that from my memory.

[JoeC]

17 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

• 1. You didn't have to "unload" Kimbrel if you didn't pick up the option.
• 2. & 3. - Hahn had at least 3 years to address RF and 2B, and have failed at each and every attempt. Pollock is not a RF, has never played RF, doesn't have the arm or experience to play RF. He is yet another LF added to the pile of LF/DH broken toys on this team.
•  4. This team has lacked SP depth the past three years. They didn't even have 3 SPs available for the 2020 playoffs. The Lynn trade was good, but didn't like the premature extension. He hasn't been healthy since. Part was due to injuries, that happens. Part due to lack of development beyond Kopech, and banking on Crochet to ramp up to SP level over the next two years. Part of that was relying on old players (SP and in the lineup), which have a higher rate of both injuries and regression.

So what's your alternative in RF?

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, JoeC said:

Yeah obviously a GM needs to prepare for injuries. That said, how many super-extended absences should you have to prepare for?

RE: Kimbrel's option - IMO it was the right move to pick up the option on a top-5 closer (but bottom-5 setup man). He had value; to let him walk away for nothing made no sense.

Point definitely conceded on the Rodon QO. I've tried to erase that from my memory.

The one guy everyone wanted early was Jean Segura, and that would have worked out okay...but then left no money for OF.

"But we had Luis Gonzalez parked there in the minors all along...and he can actually play RF competently even."

It was a great way for the Dodgers to dump a player who peaked at age 33/34 and for them to also get a similarly effective but expensive closer to replace Kenley...but a limited length deal in case it was a bad fit.

Except we very easily could end up stuck with Pollock for the two most important seasons in modern White Sox history for determining the ultimate fate of this franchise.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Yeah obviously a GM needs to prepare for injuries. That said, how many super-extended absences should you have to prepare for?

RE: Kimbrel's option - IMO it was the right move to pick up the option on a top-5 closer (but bottom-5 setup man). He had value; to let him walk away for nothing made no sense.

Point definitely conceded on the Rodon QO. I've tried to erase that from my memory.

Middle of the pack teams last year had 30 players hit the injured list at various times during the year, for a total of over 1600 man-days. That latter number the equivalent of 25% of your 40 man roster spending the entire year on the IL. 

The Padres had nearly twice that much IL usage. 

The White Sox are in the top 10 for IL usage this year, but that should be totally unsurprising - they have an old roster overall, they had several guys come into the season with injuries, and they had several guys with injury records. You absolutely can't sit here and tell me it's surprising that Lance Lynn is missing time with a knee injury and no one could have foreseen that in the offseason when he missed time with a knee injury last september! You can't tell me no one could possibly have foreseen Eloy or Robert or Pollock having muscle injuries - all 3 of them had those last year! 

Frankly,  right now, with Moncada back, Pollock back, Robert back - they're probably healthier than you should expect them to be the rest of the year. They only have 6 guys on the IL right now, the Reds and Cubs have 14, the Twins have 10.