Hahn’s 2022 Offseason (So Far)

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I'd say, based of these two lists, we've lost more impact guys than they have.

We need to stop overrating our players. 

A lot of these guys are riding on prospect reputation rather than what they've done in MLB. 

[bighurt574]

22 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I agree its not terrible, but we don't need more right handed hitting DHs attempting to play the OF.  We have enough. 

 

That's sort of the problem -- we don't have enough, who are actually producing.  

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I'd say, based of these two lists, we've lost more impact guys than they have.

4/6ths of their rotation?

We would be doomed.

Buxton and Correa would mean Robert and Jimenez and still not even.  Have been forced to use Celestino and Royce Lewis a ton and they have held their own more or less.

Larnach and Sano were considered key starters too.  Although some would have picked Kiriloff in the offseason ahead of Larnach.

(The other thing is that Gary Sanchez despite his poor def seems a lot more likely to go on an offensive tear than Grandal.  Have to go with youth…granted the Yankees went all defense at that spot for a reason.)
 

And there’s yet another key piece, Kenta Maeda…who will attempt to return the last month or so of the season. Coming off major surgery.

Edited May 18, 2022 by caulfield12

[Spumoni]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am also going to say this outloud.  The last two years have made me miss Kenny Williams.  Love him or hate him, he was not afraid to go get a guy he thought could put the team over the top.  If he had been running this ship the last two years, he WOULD have gotten a home run piece.  He might have paid too much, or might have given up the wrong players to get him, but he would have swung for the fences, instead of trying to poke it through the hole the other way like Hahn.

To be fair, didn't Kenny and Rick have the same idea with Kimbrel last year?  That was obviously intended to be the home run move and definitely didn't work out, though TLR's usage of him was stupid for sure.

[caulfield12]

Just now, Spumoni said:

To be fair, didn't Kenny and Rick have the same idea with Kimbrel last year?  That was obviously intended to be the home run move and definitely didn't work out, though TLR's usage of him was stupid for sure.

TLR claimed he was never a great fit for the role they forced him into.  Maybe should have gotten on the same page before that ill-conceived move?

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

We need to stop overrating our players. 

A lot of these guys are riding on prospect reputation rather than what they've done in MLB. 

As opposed to you who always rides on their worst game. The problem is, even with Mr. Energy, Josh Harrison, and Hahn's offseason pick ups were pretty easy to guess how they would turn out, this team isn't focused enough. The Big Hurt on the team's own postgame show, said they were sleepwalking the last Yankees game. Ozzie, on the team's own postgame show, said game 2, they weren't into it. They were content with the game 1 win. It's on the HOF baseball person. For anyone that remembered or was able to remember his first tour here, they all knew there was no way he would live up to expectations because he wasn't so good. Now older and out of the dugoout for quite some time, he's not even what he was. Renteria had to go, but they didn't even upgrade. I think right now, Renteria, with all his warts, was a better manager. At least they always played hard.

[Spumoni]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

We need to stop overrating our players. 

A lot of these guys are riding on prospect reputation rather than what they've done in MLB. 

I'd say this is definitely true of Eloy, who outside of a good start has been relatively terrible in MLB.  Robert is a small sample size but appears to be the real deal. Same with Vaughn so far. Moncada has real value, if not the MVP caliber value expected of him.  Madrigal looking be a bust.  I'd say the pitchers have largely panned out, even ReyLo.

I don't think its the prospects that we brought up that are the issue.  It's mostly the pieces we've added around them.

[GREEDY]

Nightengale sure was right... the Sox were seeking a 2B like Marcus Semien.  

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

I'd say this is definitely true of Eloy, who outside of a good start has been relatively terrible in MLB.  Robert is a small sample size but appears to be the real deal. Same with Vaughn so far. Moncada has real value, if not the MVP caliber value expected of him.  Madrigal looking be a bust.  I'd say the pitchers have largely panned out, even ReyLo.

I don't think its the prospects that we brought up that are the issue.  It's mostly the pieces we've added around them.

ReyLo has been useful but consistently underperformed expectations.  Still a great trade on Gio alone and Dunning of course turned into Lynn.

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

I'd say this is definitely true of Eloy, who outside of a good start has been relatively terrible in MLB.  Robert is a small sample size but appears to be the real deal. Same with Vaughn so far. Moncada has real value, if not the MVP caliber value expected of him.  Madrigal looking be a bust.  I'd say the pitchers have largely panned out, even ReyLo.

I don't think its the prospects that we brought up that are the issue.  It's mostly the pieces we've added around them.

See, here's a great example of what we mean by "overrating our own players". Andrew Vaughn right now is a 0 WAR player on the season. You called him "The real deal" right after Robert, who is actually a legitimate strong player.

[ChiSox59]

26 minutes ago, bighurt574 said:

 

That's sort of the problem -- we don't have enough, who are actually producing.  

Sure.  I will take the longer sample size.  

Castellanos was not and is not the solution to what ails this team.  

[Jerksticks]

I still think the FO thinks very, very highly of one of our 2B prospects.  They wouldn’t open up the Madrigal hole and not full it otherwise IMO.  

[Tnetennba]

2 hours ago, JoeC said:

The struggles of this team right now really can't be placed on Hahn IMO.

The issues going into the offseason were:

1. How to unload Kimbrel and get something in return
2. How to upgrade in RF
3. How to upgrade at 2B
4. How to shore up the rotation beyond Cease - Lynn - Kopech

He addressed (1) and (2) by acquiring Pollock

#4 has proven to be miraculously OK.

#3 is obviously still a shit show.

If this team were healthy (Lynn, Giolito, Moncada, Eloy) and players were performing up to par (basically everyone except for Vaughn and the TA's bat), we wouldn't be talking about this.

Could Hahn have done more? Yeah, probably - but to blame him for this team underperforming is misplaced blame IMO.

Failing to address LH power to aid the team's struggles vs RHP was high on the list of needs even if it weren't stated outright.  

Pollock was an upgrade over nothing, but the empty manager's uniform still runs him out to LF more often than not.  We still don't have a legit RF.

#4 has proven OK for now.  Kopech will still have innings limitations and Keuchel is still a walking DFA candidate.  VV might turn back into a pumpkin at any moment too.

I agree with your general sentiment but the roster issues still remain.  They seem awfully incapable right now of winning despite an even worse version of TLR.

[Spumoni]

22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

See, here's a great example of what we mean by "overrating our own players". Andrew Vaughn right now is a 0 WAR player on the season. You called him "The real deal" right after Robert, who is actually a legitimate strong player.

Andrew Vaughn is at a 0.0 WAR solely because of poor defense at positions we all know he should not be playing.  It's not fair to hold that against him.  In his second full big league season, never having played above high A ball, he is currently at a 135 wRC+.  The bat is there, and that's always what he was expected to be.  Not a competent LF/RF.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

Andrew Vaughn is at a 0.0 WAR solely because of poor defense at positions we all know he should not be playing.  It's not fair to hold that against him.  In his second full big league season, never having played above high A ball, he is currently at a 135 wRC+.  The bat is there, and that's always what he was expected to be.  Not a competent LF/RF.

We were specifically talking about the injuries here. Do the White Sox get to say "No team could ever replace a 0 WAR outfielder on the IL for a week that's just impractical to believe any team is ready for that kind of loss. The guys we've lost clearly are better than the guys the Twins had go on the IL, after all we lost a 0 WAR outfielder and they couldn't match that kind of loss."

[Spumoni]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

We were specifically talking about the injuries here. Do the White Sox get to say "No team could ever replace a 0 WAR outfielder on the IL for a week that's just impractical to believe any team is ready for that kind of loss. The guys we've lost clearly are better than the guys the Twins had go on the IL, after all we lost a 0 WAR outfielder and they couldn't match that kind of loss."

That's a fair point.  I was referring more to Parkman's statement that players are overrated based on prospect value. I don't think that's fair to Vaughn (and the others mentioned above) by stating that Vaughn is largely doing what he should have been expected to and failing in a spot that he never should have been put into.

Now do I think the organization overrates Vaughn's ability in the outfield and failed by putting us in the position where we have a bunch of 1Bs running around in the outfield?  Absolutely.   

My greater point in general was that I think that the prospects gathered in the rebuild have, for the most part, come to form a solid core.  It's specifically Hahn's failure to surround that core with pieces that make this a better team that is the primary issue we are dealing with right now.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Spumoni

[Spumoni]

35 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

ReyLo has been useful but consistently underperformed expectations.  Still a great trade on Gio alone and Dunning of course turned into Lynn.

For sure, not all prospects pan out - look at Blake Rutherford.  But ReyLo is still a valuable and important piece on this team and between Giolito, Kopech, Cease, flipping Dunning into Lynn I would say that the pitching prospects look like a remarkable success.

[Snopek]

15 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

I still think the FO thinks very, very highly of one of our 2B prospects.  They wouldn’t open up the Madrigal hole and not full it otherwise IMO.  

I suspect you may be right, but pretty awful timing to try transitioning to a 2B prospect smack dab in the middle of the contention window, no?

Let me clarify that NOW it seems fine to do considering the non-existent production we’ve gotten from the position, but a pretty questionable plan if that’s what it was.

[Jack Parkman]

8 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

That's a fair point.  I was referring more to Parkman's statement that players are overrated based on prospect value. I don't think that's fair to Vaughn (and the others mentioned above) by stating that Vaughn is largely doing what he should have been expected to and failing in a spot that he never should have been put into.

Now do I think the organization overrates Vaughn's ability in the outfield and failed by putting us in the position where we have a bunch of 1Bs running around in the outfield?  Absolutely.   

My greater point in general was that I think that the prospects gathered in the rebuild have, for the most part, come to form a solid core.  It's specifically Hahn's failure to surround that core with pieces that make this a better team that is the primary issue we are dealing with right now.

Ok, this is what I mean. Outside of Robert and Anderson, which Sox hitters have been consistent? Where are the impact players? 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

We were specifically talking about the injuries here. Do the White Sox get to say "No team could ever replace a 0 WAR outfielder on the IL for a week that's just impractical to believe any team is ready for that kind of loss. The guys we've lost clearly are better than the guys the Twins had go on the IL, after all we lost a 0 WAR outfielder and they couldn't match that kind of loss."

Given that offense is where this team is falling terribly short, I think it's fair to say the loss of a 135 wRC+ bat is problematic, regardless of his defensive woes. So using a WAR amount to discredit that loss feels disingenuous at best.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ok, this is what I mean. Outside of Robert and Anderson, which Sox hitters have been consistent? Where are the impact players? 

Moncada been incredibly unlucky and is still rocking a 120 wRC+. His BABIP is nearly 90 points below his career average and his xwOBA is 50 points higher than his actual. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

58 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

4/6ths of their rotation?

We would be doomed.

Buxton and Correa would mean Robert and Jimenez and still not even.  Have been forced to use Celestino and Royce Lewis a ton and they have held their own more or less.

Larnach and Sano were considered key starters too.  Although some would have picked Kiriloff in the offseason ahead of Larnach.

(The other thing is that Gary Sanchez despite his poor def seems a lot more likely to go on an offensive tear than Grandal.  Have to go with youth…granted the Yankees went all defense at that spot for a reason.)
 

And there’s yet another key piece, Kenta Maeda…who will attempt to return the last month or so of the season. Coming off major surgery.

most of their "4/6" of rotation are just backend guys anyways.  It's not like they lost a Gilito or Lynn for example (much harder to replace).

[Spumoni]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ok, this is what I mean. Outside of Robert and Anderson, which Sox hitters have been consistent? Where are the impact players? 

How can we call Robert consistent?  He is one of the streakiest players I have ever seen.  Remember all the "sky is falling" reaction during his 0-19?

Moncada came back literally a week ago and has looked solid if unspectacular, which is what we have all been saying about him (very good but not great).  Vaughn has been one of the highlights early on in the season at the plate.  

If you read my note, I said that the White Sox prospects have largely performed as expected.  The pieces Rick added on (Harrison, Leury, McGuire, Pollock) are black holes.

[soulfly]

Spoiler alert: Rick Hahn is not good at his job.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Spumoni said:

How can we call Robert consistent?  He is one of the streakiest players I have ever seen.  Remember all the "sky is falling" reaction during his 0-19?

Moncada came back literally a week ago and has looked solid if unspectacular, which is what we have all been saying about him (very good but not great).  Vaughn has been one of the highlights early on in the season at the plate.  

If you read my note, I said that the White Sox prospects have largely performed as expected.  The pieces Rick added on (Harrison, Leury, McGuire, Pollock) are black holes.

Vaughn has looked terrible since his injury. 

Too early to say one way or another on Moncada, it's been 7 games. 

I think the biggest issue that the Sox are facing is the possible age related regression of Grandal. If he sucks, the Sox are in a world of hurt. Abreu can be replaced, but only if TLR is willing to not play him. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Jack Parkman