When did we take the wrong turn?

[greg775]

The rebuild fizzzed when Eloy kept getting hurt. And the rebuild has been hurt by Moncada not being a superstar yet. ... Also the rebuild didn't stand a chance when Sox abandoned caring at all about defense.

[oldsox]

Giving away Tatis.  

[hankchifan]

9 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

No you are not delusional, I felt the same way. The handwriting was on the wall in the second half of last year, we needed upgrades at 2B and RF and those needs were not addressed. If the front offtice felt that Harrison and Pollock were the upgrades, it's they that are delusional.

The FO was obsessed with chasing relievers and ignored the more pressing need at RF.

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, oldsox said:

Giving away Tatis.  

How would Tatis have helped this year?

The strange thing is that SD has played quite well without him (Machado Top 3 MVP season)...so it will be interesting to see which position they put him at when he finally returns in late June/early July. 

The most logical one to sit is an outfielder like Grisham.

Edited May 28, 2022 by caulfield12

[Quin]

Not signing Machado.

It would have meant complete buy-in from Jerry, but also, subsequent moves would just naturally look different.

• Grandal, Keuchel, or expensive relievers are getting nixed heavily in this scenario.
• The team likely trades Madrigal as a prospect, since Machado-Anderson-Moncada is now your infield.
• TLR is revolted at the idea of managing Machado, doesn't even entertain Jerry's offer.

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

Not signing Machado.

It would have meant complete buy-in from Jerry, but also, subsequent moves would just naturally look different.

• Grandal, Keuchel, or expensive relievers are getting nixed heavily in this scenario.
• The team likely trades Madrigal as a prospect, since Machado-Anderson-Moncada is now your infield.
• TLR is revolted at the idea of managing Machado, doesn't even entertain Jerry's offer.

 

Great, Jay and Alonso would still be on the team.

Pretty crazy to think about Machado, Tatis and Moncada across the infield…although everyone has pretty much discounted the possibility of Robert still signing and being the final member of that group.

Or Harper, Tatis, Moncada and Robert.

The way things are looking now, we ended up one star short unless Moncada can somehow turn things around.

 

I mean, the Padres managed to fit two $300 million guys, Hosmer, Myers, and a pitching staff of 5 former All-Star pitchers (including Rogers) and Gore/Abrams onto the same roster.  Why couldn’t the Sox do at least half that?

[The Kids Can Play]

21 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

If they were going to go old school for a manager, they should have gone with Buck. Buck is really good for a few years when he get a job then his act gets old. But there is a difference. You saw Buck on TV. He sounds exactly like he did 20 years ago. You watch Tony get interviewed now and compare it to 20 years ago. It's a lot different. I will admit, I wouldn't have wanted Tony 20 years ago either.

I would take Showalter over TLR in a heartbeat. Buck is still sharp and always was! He would have done a great job here.

Unfortunately not all humans age the same way. The manner in which TLR speaks to the media and having problems making complete coherent sentences is painful to watch!  The way he slowly moves about or hides while sitting in the corner of the dugout, is clearly a sign he is mentally and physically hampered. Sadly for the players, he is not capable of being that energetic, sharp, strategic and motivational manager for the players; that these players so desperately need direction and leadership from.  

It is so frustrating that TLR is too stubborn and delusional to admit these facts and do the right thing and step down. His demented buddy Reinsdorf, who is also stubborn and ignorant, won't admit his colossal hiring mistake and put a stop to this managerial circus! Sadly for all of us diehard Sox fans, this will never change until JR passes away, sells the team or becomes too mentally wasted away with his dementia to run the team anymore.

[The Kids Can Play]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Great, Jay and Alonso would still be on the team.

Pretty crazy to think about Machado, Tatis and Moncada across the infield…although everyone has pretty much discounted the possibility of Robert still signing and being the final member of that group.

Or Harper, Tatis, Moncada and Robert.

The way things are looking now, we ended up one star short unless Moncada can somehow turn things around.

 

I mean, the Padres managed to fit two $300 million guys, Hosmer, Myers, and a pitching staff of 5 former All-Star pitchers (including Rogers) and Gore/Abrams onto the same roster.  Why couldn’t the Sox do at least half that?

Yep and they did that in a small market. The answer to your question, which at this point is obviously a rhetorical one; they have an owner who passionately cares, mentally coherent and wants to win. Whereas we have an owner who is...well, never mind, we all know the answers!

[The Mighty Mite]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:01 AM, CentralChamps21 said:

From my viewpoint, the underlying cause of all of the problems is not relying enough on analytics.

Management not emphasizing analytics enough when hiring the coaching staff, both at the major and minor league levels.

Management not utilizing analytics when making player decisions, both at the major league level and in the draft.

The coaching staff not utilizing analytics when coaching the players and making decisions about playing time.

Of course, this ultimately falls on the owner. He's the one who hires the President/GM who aren't using analytics enough.

If I were to somehow magically inherit the Sox, the first thing I would do is offer every single member of the Tampa front office a 50% salary increase to come take the same position with the Sox.

Living on the Gulf Coast of Florida, I watch the Rays just about every game and I agree that somebody in their front office knows exactly what they're doing. They have a knack of constantly making the right moves, they have had me scratching my head when they trade stars like Longoria and Meadows and going back to Carl Crawford but they always come out smelling like roses with other players. Year after year they have had pretty strong bullpens and reliable starting pitching and all this is done on the cheap.

[Mokena94]

That is because the Rays stress fundamentals and appear to be very good at player development. The White Sox are one of the poorest fundamental teams in either league, on a yearly basis. What do they do as a "system" to prioritize this? Most of the minor leaguers seem to come up with the same deficiencies the MLB team has.

During the Red Sox series it was mentioned multiple times how Boston had a fielding coach working long hours with Devers and Bogaerts on their footwork, and other fielding fundamentals. They looked very comfortable and fundamentally sound this week. Now granted Burger is not remotely close to as athletic or talented as they are, but IF you wanted to try him at 2B (not saying he is the answer, but neither are Garcia or Harrison) - do the  White Sox have anybody who could do that kind of personal work with him to get where he could be a serviceable 2B? And based on everything you hear, plus his overcoming a couple of serious injuries, I do not think that Burger would be adverse to putting in the effort. 

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Mokena94

[ShoeLessRob]

This is an organizational failure. Top to bottom. 

[Dominikk85]

The sox system has really failed to produce much except for first basemen after the first group was up. 

 

They developed a great core but really the depth behind that is lacking, especially middle infield and starting pitcher. 

Nobody develops stars all the time but it helps if you can at least call up a 1 WAR player in case of injury so you don't have to play a negative WAR replacement. 

The sox top 8 or 9 players are as good as any team but depth is lacking and any injury can't be compensated very well. 

In contrast if you look at the dodgers they always have some injuries too but their replacements are at least competent so they don't have to start a starter with a 7 era when someone goes down. 

[Tnetennba]

When was the last time this org's system regularly churned out MLB starting talent?  The failings in drafting & development + refusing to invest in international prospects has this org operating with one had tied behind its back going back nearly two decades.  Refusing to pay top dollar for impact FA leaves them scraping the bottom of the FA barrel or overpaying for past production.  The failing rebuild is as close as they've come to operating as a functional organization, which they have also utterly bungled.  Throw a dart at the board and you probably have a valid reason for their repeated failures.

[Dick Allen]

10 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

The sox system has really failed to produce much except for first basemen after the first group was up. 

 

They developed a great core but really the depth behind that is lacking, especially middle infield and starting pitcher. 

Nobody develops stars all the time but it helps if you can at least call up a 1 WAR player in case of injury so you don't have to play a negative WAR replacement. 

The sox top 8 or 9 players are as good as any team but depth is lacking and any injury can't be compensated very well. 

In contrast if you look at the dodgers they always have some injuries too but their replacements are at least competent so they don't have to start a starter with a 7 era when someone goes down. 

When is the last time they drafted and developed a major league every day player outside of the first round?

 

[greg775]

On 5/28/2022 at 9:56 AM, The Kids Can Play said:

Unfortunately not all humans age the same way. The manner in which TLR speaks to the media and having problems making complete coherent sentences is painful to watch!  The way he slowly moves about or hides while sitting in the corner of the dugout, is clearly a sign he is mentally and physically hampered. Sadly for the players, he is not capable of being that energetic, sharp, strategic and motivational manager for the players; that these players so desperately need direction and leadership from.  

Is Tony really this bad? I know some people have said this regarding weird things some older politicians have said. Tony has had a horrible year so far but is he physically and mentally this bad off? Does he really hide in the corners of the dugout? Yikes.

[greg775]

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

When is the last time they drafted and developed a major league every day player outside of the first round?

 

Joe Crede baby! Love me some Crede.

[Balta1701]

15 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

When is the last time they drafted and developed a major league every day player outside of the first round?

 

Does Brent Morel count as a regular? Because if not I have to go all the way back to Joe Crede to find the last guy the White Sox drafted outside the first round who was a 500+ PA player for the White Sox.

[The Kids Can Play]

3 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Is Tony really this bad? I know some people have said this regarding weird things some older politicians have said. Tony has had a horrible year so far but is he physically and mentally this bad off? Does he really hide in the corners of the dugout? Yikes.

Yes he really is that bad! He is only here because Reinsdorf, another demented and even older loser, made a colossal mistake in hiring him. Do you really think TLR would have been hired, if it was up to Hahn and JR wouldn't interfere in the decision? As long as TLR is here, I will be super critical of him for his horrible managing.

I can't believe you don't see how weak he is mentally and physically. Go on You Tube and find a post conference interview back from the St Louis days and see the difference in his speech articulation and basic communication skills. Someone on this board mentioned this in a post. I actually did go back and checked out older YT videos on him compared to today and it's frightening how much he has aged. 

TLR still doesn't know how to put a proper lineup together. There have been 46 different lineups in the first 46 games. He still doesn't know how to use the bullpen properly. We see right in front of our eyes the life being sucked right out of this team! 

I know for awhile there were some people here defending TLR. Yet 1.5 years into this derailed rebuild trial to a WS win, I didn't think there were any TLR supporters left. Plus seeing how the Sox hitting is pathetic and the fielding is horrible...that is on him. The hitting coach that TLR brought in is a complete joke. He obviously hasn't been working with our hitters, since they haven't made any adjustments and still producing lackluster offensive numbers. The Sox still don't take enough pitches and work the count to get a hitter's count. We swing at first pitches way too often and rarely take walks. 

I get TLR isn't going to be fired this year. However that doesn't change the fact he still sucks as manager. 

[ChiSox59]

On 5/28/2022 at 2:16 AM, Quin said:

Not signing Machado.

It would have meant complete buy-in from Jerry, but also, subsequent moves would just naturally look different.

• Grandal, Keuchel, or expensive relievers are getting nixed heavily in this scenario.
• The team likely trades Madrigal as a prospect, since Machado-Anderson-Moncada is now your infield.
• TLR is revolted at the idea of managing Machado, doesn't even entertain Jerry's offer.

 

While this thing still had plenty of a chance as success without Machado or Harper, missing on those guys was a real damper to what could have been a much swifter rise to an elite team. Instead, it looks like stalling out before it really got started is at least a legit possibility. 

[hankchifan]

On 5/27/2022 at 11:25 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 I don't care if anyone thinks it's TLR or Hahn , scouting ,development, drafting ,injuries, international money, analytics, or whatever.

I could quote every post in here and question why any part of the organization is bad and the answer is still Jerry Reinsdorf.

You are right.  JR is the common denominator.

[Chick Mercedes]

On 5/28/2022 at 8:24 AM, The Mighty Mite said:

Living on the Gulf Coast of Florida, I watch the Rays just about every game and I agree that somebody in their front office knows exactly what they're doing. They have a knack of constantly making the right moves, they have had me scratching my head when they trade stars like Longoria and Meadows and going back to Carl Crawford but they always come out smelling like roses with other players. Year after year they have had pretty strong bullpens and reliable starting pitching and all this is done on the cheap.

Yeah. And the Sox are the perfect franchise that should copy the Rays model. 

[The Mighty Mite]

On 5/28/2022 at 12:51 PM, Mokena94 said:

That is because the Rays stress fundamentals and appear to be very good at player development. The White Sox are one of the poorest fundamental teams in either league, on a yearly basis. What do they do as a "system" to prioritize this? Most of the minor leaguers seem to come up with the same deficiencies the MLB team has.

During the Red Sox series it was mentioned multiple times how Boston had a fielding coach working long hours with Devers and Bogaerts on their footwork, and other fielding fundamentals. They looked very comfortable and fundamentally sound this week. Now granted Burger is not remotely close to as athletic or talented as they are, but IF you wanted to try him at 2B (not saying he is the answer, but neither are Garcia or Harrison) - do the  White Sox have anybody who could do that kind of personal work with him to get where he could be a serviceable 2B? And based on everything you hear, plus his overcoming a couple of serious injuries, I do not think that Burger would be adverse to putting in the effort. 

 

JR and Eddie Einhorn when he was alive were against spending big money on the Minor Leagues and on player development, they didn't care to spend money on potential.

[The Mighty Mite]

4 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by The Mighty Mite

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Does Brent Morel count as a regular? Because if not I have to go all the way back to Joe Crede to find the last guy the White Sox drafted outside the first round who was a 500+ PA player for the White Sox.

It’s really only him and Rowand…and it took both those guys 2-3 years to become regulars.

After that, it’s Eduardo Escobar and Semien, but not for the Sox, obviously.

[greg775]

3 hours ago, The Kids Can Play said:

Yes he really is that bad! He is only here because Reinsdorf, another demented and even older loser, made a colossal mistake in hiring him. Do you really think TLR would have been hired, if it was up to Hahn and JR wouldn't interfere in the decision? As long as TLR is here, I will be super critical of him for his horrible managing.

I can't believe you don't see how weak he is mentally and physically. Go on You Tube and find a post conference interview back from the St Louis days and see the difference in his speech articulation and basic communication skills. Someone on this board mentioned this in a post. I actually did go back and checked out older YT videos on him compared to today and it's frightening how much he has aged. 

TLR still doesn't know how to put a proper lineup together. There have been 46 different lineups in the first 46 games. He still doesn't know how to use the bullpen properly. We see right in front of our eyes the life being sucked right out of this team! 

I know for awhile there were some people here defending TLR. Yet 1.5 years into this derailed rebuild trial to a WS win, I didn't think there were any TLR supporters left. Plus seeing how the Sox hitting is pathetic and the fielding is horrible...that is on him. The hitting coach that TLR brought in is a complete joke. He obviously hasn't been working with our hitters, since they haven't made any adjustments and still producing lackluster offensive numbers. The Sox still don't take enough pitches and work the count to get a hitter's count. We swing at first pitches way too often and rarely take walks. 

I get TLR isn't going to be fired this year. However that doesn't change the fact he still sucks as manager. 

I like this post. I'm not a vocal Tony supporter any more. I do think his performance this year is a D. And last year when he didn't support Yermin it really ticked me off. I'd give him a C for last year ONLY cause Sox made the postseason. My vocal support goes to Ozzie, not Tony. But I don't despise having Tony at the helm. The injuries have hampered him.