This White Sox team is indefensible at this point.

[VAfan]

As one of the few positive posters on Soxtalk, I've been pretty quiet since the season began.  

The team is just very disappointing on many levels.  That doesn't mean it can't rally, but so far, so much of it has been unwatchable.  

On offense, only Tim Anderson and Andrew Vaughn are above .800 OPS on the season.  And only 4 players are above 100 wRC+.  Robert and Abreu are the other two.  (Not counting Danny Mendick and his 26 PAs).  So many others have flat out stunk.  Where is Yasmani Grandal, and why is he getting so many ABs at DH?  Where is AJ Pollock?  Yoan Moncada?  You make us yearn for Jake Burger, and your contract is about to be a major albatross around the Sox' neck.  

For pitching, Michael Kopech has been stellar.  Lucas Giolito has also pitched well when he's been available.  Johnny Cueto has been amazing in two starts. And even Dylan Cease has done pretty well, though he's also been blown up in 2 of his last 3 starts, which dropped his ERA+ down to 92.  In the bullpen, there have been good performances, but also let downs.  Matt Foster is one of the bright spots there. 

On defense, it seems to have stabilized, but there were some early games lost with poor defense, including errors by Tim Anderson, the otherwise star of the team.  

I won't break down Tony LaRussa other than to say he's made many inexcusable mistakes for a HOF manager.  We often overrate "moves" by a manager, and underrate how a manager gets a team to play hard, but even on the latter score, TLR has not done well.  There seems to be no team discipline. 

Rick Hahn and the Sox front office?  My biggest problem was not keeping Carlos Rodon, though after starting out with a great first month, he's been roughed up lately and is only 4-4 with a 113 ERA+.   But other moves have not worked.  Joe Kelly?  He can't stay healthy.  Not sure Ryan Tepera was the answer, as he's at a 95 ERA+ right now.  But they spent a lot of money on Kelly and he hasn't given the Sox anything.  AJ Pollock?  Seemed like a great trade at the time.  Good for a 70 OPS+ when he can play, which has had major gaps.  Josh Harrison?  Why?  Frankly Danny Mendick would have been a better bridge to minor league guys.  His money could have gone to keeping Rodon. At least the Nick Madrigal trade hasn't bit us, with Madrigal hurt and sporting a 40 OPS+.  Will you finally cut Dallas Keuchel?  By keeping him you send the team the wrong message, while losing games you can't afford to lose.  He was such a bad signing.  Without his contract, the Sox definitely could have afforded Rodon.  

So there you have it.  The players, the manager, and the front office have all performed very poorly this year.  

I will leave with one final note.  1983.  In the first half the team was 40-37.  In the second half they were 59-26.  TLR was the manager.  Not saying it will happen again.  But last year, the Atlanta Braves were 44-45 at one point on their way to the World Series.  

[Colome's Hat]

I hope at the deadline, the Sox do what the Braves did last year and make very targeted and specific moves to fill weaknesses.  The big one for me is 2nd base.  Also another starting pitcher.  If they can get a left handed thumper too that would be great.  They don't have to be earth shattering either.  To be honest, I think someone like Grienke would be a real plus for this team, especially in the playoffs.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Colome's Hat

[Jerksticks]

Yea man, I’m one of the biggest chill out, positive guys here too.  
 

The lineup construction is maddening to me.  I fucking hate it.  I keep trying to think “well they know things about these guys that we don’t”,  but it just seems like the tinkering is ridiculous.  And all the rest. 
 

Let these guys play every day in the same spot

Edited May 28, 2022 by Jerksticks

[Chimpton]

4 minutes ago, VAfan said:

As one of the few positive posters on Soxtalk, I've been pretty quiet since the season began.  

The team is just very disappointing on many levels.  That doesn't mean it can't rally, but so far, so much of it has been unwatchable.  

I think most of us would like to be positive but as you have said so many times this season they have been borderline unwatchable, some of the performances in the losing streak were simply embarrassing, 

But as you also say if they can get the offense working anywhere near its potential with the pitching they have they could be a good team, but unfortunately they could just as easily drift along around the .500 mark flattering to deceive. 

[Chimpton]

5 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said:

I hope at the deadline, the Sox do what the Braves did last year and make very targeted and specific moves to fill weaknesses.  The big one for me is 2nd base.  Also another starting pitcher.  If they can get a left handed thumper too that would be great.  They don't have to be earth shattering either.  To be honest, I think someone like Grienke would be a real plus for this team, especially in the playoffs.

Have they got the wages money and trade pieces to achieve that?

[The Mighty Mite]

41 minutes ago, VAfan said:

As one of the few positive posters on Soxtalk, I've been pretty quiet since the season began.  

The team is just very disappointing on many levels.  That doesn't mean it can't rally, but so far, so much of it has been unwatchable.  

On offense, only Tim Anderson and Andrew Vaughn are above .800 OPS on the season.  And only 4 players are above 100 wRC+.  Robert and Abreu are the other two.  (Not counting Danny Mendick and his 26 PAs).  So many others have flat out stunk.  Where is Yasmani Grandal, and why is he getting so many ABs at DH?  Where is AJ Pollock?  Yoan Moncada?  You make us yearn for Jake Burger, and your contract is about to be a major albatross around the Sox' neck.  

For pitching, Michael Kopech has been stellar.  Lucas Giolito has also pitched well when he's been available.  Johnny Cueto has been amazing in two starts. And even Dylan Cease has done pretty well, though he's also been blown up in 2 of his last 3 starts, which dropped his ERA+ down to 92.  In the bullpen, there have been good performances, but also let downs.  Matt Foster is one of the bright spots there. 

On defense, it seems to have stabilized, but there were some early games lost with poor defense, including errors by Tim Anderson, the otherwise star of the team.  

I won't break down Tony LaRussa other than to say he's made many inexcusable mistakes for a HOF manager.  We often overrate "moves" by a manager, and underrate how a manager gets a team to play hard, but even on the latter score, TLR has not done well.  There seems to be no team discipline. 

Rick Hahn and the Sox front office?  My biggest problem was not keeping Carlos Rodon, though after starting out with a great first month, he's been roughed up lately and is only 4-4 with a 113 ERA+.   But other moves have not worked.  Joe Kelly?  He can't stay healthy.  Not sure Ryan Tepera was the answer, as he's at a 95 ERA+ right now.  But they spent a lot of money on Kelly and he hasn't given the Sox anything.  AJ Pollock?  Seemed like a great trade at the time.  Good for a 70 OPS+ when he can play, which has had major gaps.  Josh Harrison?  Why?  Frankly Danny Mendick would have been a better bridge to minor league guys.  His money could have gone to keeping Rodon. At least the Nick Madrigal trade hasn't bit us, with Madrigal hurt and sporting a 40 OPS+.  Will you finally cut Dallas Keuchel?  By keeping him you send the team the wrong message, while losing games you can't afford to lose.  He was such a bad signing.  Without his contract, the Sox definitely could have afforded Rodon.  

So there you have it.  The players, the manager, and the front office have all performed very poorly this year.  

I will leave with one final note.  1983.  In the first half the team was 40-37.  In the second half they were 59-26.  TLR was the manager.  Not saying it will happen again.  But last year, the Atlanta Braves were 44-45 at one point on their way to the World Series.  

In late May the 83 Sox were 18-26 and from that point on played like gangbusters going 81-37, the best stretch of baseball I ever saw the Sox play since I became a fan in 1952. 

There is still hope for this bunch based on their track record, let's hope they remember how to hit pretty damn soon..

[reiks12]

I am a pessimistic poster, but I blame that on the fact that the White Sox organization has so many issues with it that its hard for me to feel hopeful.

Have a good lineup? Give them a terrible hitting coach/hitting philosophy.

Have a player get hurt? There is no depth in the minors to replace the loss.

Enter a competitive window? Have a GM and owner refuse to upgrade the club over money and/or lack of scouting

Chance to make the playoffs for the first time in 14 years? Hire an 80 year old with no idea how the modern game has changed.

Have a great team? The other teams in the league are much more efficient and well rounded

Have a plethora of analytical minded people to join the front office to improve every facet of the team? Hire a pitching coaches son to "head" the analytical department even though he has no experience in that field.

All of the above is due to an owner that just refuses to sell or die.

[The Kids Can Play]

This is what you call a Rebuild gone derailed!

 

 

 

[Green Line]

A completely agree with this post.  But with that said, the difference between a 90 win team and a .500 season really isn't that big.  I still think the offense will be mediocre by the end of the season.  A mediocre offense might be enough for 90 wins.

[Chicago White Sox]

The scary part is I don’t know how you fix the offense.  I just don’t see a ton of bats that will be readily available that are left-handed, play RF or 2B, and will not command a massive cost.  At a minimum, the Sox should give Yogurt a look at 2B, but that’s going to move the needle much against good RHP.  Hahn ignoring the need for a left-handed power bat for multiple offseasons is immensely frustrating.

[ShoeLessRob]

I find them extremely unlikeable and unwatchable at this point. At least Renteria’s team played hard, this team seems to have taken on the corpse of TLR’s demeanor. 

[kitekrazy]

2 hours ago, Colome's Hat said:

I hope at the deadline, the Sox do what the Braves did last year and make very targeted and specific moves to fill weaknesses.  The big one for me is 2nd base.  Also another starting pitcher.  If they can get a left handed thumper too that would be great.  They don't have to be earth shattering either.  To be honest, I think someone like Grienke would be a real plus for this team, especially in the playoffs.

They don't have anything to give up.   Many teams can make trades if their farm system is stocked/

The bullpen weakness last season was addressed and didn't work.   They have yet to see NL talent doesn't work for them. 

It's like trying to buy a gallon of milk and only have a nickle.  They only thing they have left is the free agent market.

 

[greg775]

1 hour ago, ShoeLessRob said:

I find them extremely unlikeable and unwatchable at this point. At least Renteria’s team played hard, this team seems to have taken on the corpse of TLR’s demeanor. 

The Sox record is actually pretty good (22-22) for a team this unlikeable and lousy. If you like ground balls on offense and popups this is your team. If you want to see your team lose and lose by big crooked numbers, this often is your team. And blowing that late lead vs. Cleveland was simply inexcusable. That's the night Tony should have told Jerry he needs to retire for good. Ozzie shoulda took over as interim, let Tony become an adviser to the owner who does nothing but count his $$.

Edited May 28, 2022 by greg775

[Lillian]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The scary part is I don’t know how you fix the offense.  I just don’t see a ton of bats that will be readily available that are left-handed, play RF or 2B, and will not command a massive cost.  At a minimum, the Sox should give Yogurt a look at 2B, but that’s going to move the needle much against good RHP.  Hahn ignoring the need for a left-handed power bat for multiple offseasons is immensely frustrating.

Tyler Naquin is a LH right fielder, whom I suggested, before the season began. He hits RHP pretty well and is a legit right fielder. He'll be a FA, at the end of the season. He shouldn't cost much in prospect capital and could give his at bats, vs LHP to Pollock, or Engel. He's the best affordable option for a trade acquisition, whom I can think of bringing in, to try to jump start this offense. The Sox desperately need a legit bat, from the left side. Depending upon Grandal, Moncada and Sheets for that role has proven to be folly. It was always risky, but has gone about as badly as most of our worst fears. 

[FoxForce2]

Naquin probably is the best available RF/LH, but that's not really a 'jump start' to the lineup. He's been hitting a lot of GB both this year and last. Range Factor in the field has declined (if slightly), probably a result of a decrease in his somewhat above average running speed. Probably a decent pickup in an Engel kind of way. But then what happens with Jimenez, Vaughn, Engel, Sheets? I wouldn't move Engel for him, leaving Sheets as the odd man out - but that would be shedding one LH for another.

EDIT: And Pollock. Pollock too. Whom Hahn identified as addressing the RF problem.

Edited May 28, 2022 by FoxForce2

[wrathofhahn]

I don't really have issues with this offense or lineup.

They aren't hitting I get that but look at their career averages these players are better than their numbers right now.

Tim Anderson, Yoán Moncada, José Abreu, AJ Pollock, Luis Robert,  Yasmani Grandal, Andrew Vaughn, Eloy Jiménez.

Part of it is injuries too but Moncada is not going to finish with a .432 OPS. Grandal with a .505 OPS. Eloy with a .590 ops. These guys are good hitters have some faith in them.

 

[Lillian]

1 hour ago, FoxForce2 said:

Naquin probably is the best available RF/LH, but that's not really a 'jump start' to the lineup. He's been hitting a lot of GB both this year and last. Range Factor in the field has declined (if slightly), probably a result of a decrease in his somewhat above average running speed. Probably a decent pickup in an Engel kind of way. But then what happens with Jimenez, Vaughn, Engel, Sheets? I wouldn't move Engel for him, leaving Sheets as the odd man out - but that would be shedding one LH for another.

His Splits this year are pretty respectable, vs. RHP: AVG .276   OBP .343   SLG  .520.  Of course, it's a small sample size but that is similar to what he did last year.  When Eloy is back, I would use Vaughn in LF, Robert in CF and Naquin in RF, with Eloy at DH. vs RHP. Naquin is a better and more established hitter than Sheets. Gavin may be a contributor, after Abreu is ready to retire, but for the rest of the this year, this team badly needs more dependable LH hitting.  Engel could continue to be a defensive replacement and 4TH outfielder. I don't know what to do with Pollock. It's possible that he is just getting too old to be a really productive player. He had a great year last year, but he'll be 35 in 5 months. That is an age when some guys are just too far past their primes. Who knows? I wish there were better options than Naquin, but I can't think of any other realistic possibilities, can you?

Edited May 28, 2022 by Lillian

[Lillian]

10 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said:

I don't really have issues with this offense or lineup.

They aren't hitting I get that but look at their career averages these players are better than their numbers right now.

Tim Anderson, Yoán Moncada, José Abreu, AJ Pollock, Luis Robert,  Yasmani Grandal, Andrew Vaughn, Eloy Jiménez.

Part of it is injuries too but Moncada is not going to finish with a .432 OPS. Grandal with a .505 OPS. Eloy with a .590 ops. These guys are good hitters have some faith in them.

 

Yes, they have all been good hitters. However, Abreu, Pollock, Grandal and Harrison are all at an age when they could just be to near the end of their careers. I have more confidence in Abreu to still have a decent season, than I do the others but all four of them are precariously near the point where they are just not going to be able to match their career numbers. 

[Chick Mercedes]

They know how to tear down a team and gain assets. As far as guiding it back in deliberate directions through the building back up phase in real time, not so much. Its like they built a car with no steering wheel, no driver,  and put in in drive. And no, Larussa is not a driver. Its way above his pay grade.

[VAfan]

The problem with the offense turning around is they have no patience at the plate.  They do not work the count.  They do not force pitchers to elevate their pitch counts, get tired, and then groove hittable pitches.  Tim Anderson is the best hitter on the club, but he doesn't lead by example, because no one else can hit like him.  

The rest of the veteran hitters should be embarrassed by how Andrew Vaughn is showing them all up.  Still, even he has only 6 walks, just like Anderson and Robert, the 3 best hitters in the lineup.  

I don't think Menechino is the problem, but the Sox should probably fire him because the players are not buying into what he's telling them.  

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Lillian said:

His Splits this year are pretty respectable, vs. RHP: AVG .276   OBP .343   SLG  .520.  Of course, it's a small sample size but that is similar to what he did last year.  When Eloy is back, I would use Vaughn in LF, Robert in CF and Naquin in RF, with Eloy at DH. vs RHP. Naquin is a better and more established hitter than Sheets. Gavin may be a contributor, after Abreu is ready to retire, but for the rest of the this year, this team badly needs more dependable LH hitting.  Engel could continue to be a defensive replacement and 4TH outfielder. I don't know what to do with Pollock. It's possible that he is just getting too old to be a really productive player. He had a great year last year, but he'll be 35 in 5 months. That is an age when some guys are just too far past their primes. Who knows? I wish there were better options than Naquin, but I can't think of any other realistic possibilities, can you?

If we are thinking of what the Braves did last year, finding 3 or 4 decent players available for cheap does make sense when the team has this many guys struggling. That would mean the team would have to move several guys out of the lineup if they continue playing poorly. Naquin fits the mold of one of those guys.

However, I would much rather see Eloy in the OF than Vaughn any more. AV is just terrible out there right now. Screw the injury risk Vaughn can play out there once someone gets hurt, at least Eloy can move a few steps towards a ball in the air.

[caulfield12]

Naquin and Drury.  What’s that going to cost the Sox?  Because there’s unlikely to be another headline-grabbing move unless it’s a change of scenery deal for Moncada or Jimenez, and both of those seem highly unlikely.

[Lillian]

Just one other observation regarding ageing players:  It's more challenging today, because of the high velocity pitches, being delivered so consistently. If a hitter's bat speed slows down just a fraction, it can render him much less capable of catching up to all of these mid, to high 90's pitches. It is only in recent years that so many pitchers have been able to reach the high velocity, we routinely see today. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Lillian

[GermanSoxFan]

This team is the least fun to watch in over a decade. It’s a team that sucks all the fun out of a baseball season. A feat even the really bad mid 2010s teams didn’t accomplish. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

This team is the least fun to watch in over a decade. It’s a team that sucks all the fun out of a baseball season. A feat even the really bad mid 2010s teams didn’t accomplish. 

Oh yes 2015-2016 were utterly miserable. Don’t forget how awful those experiences were just because it’s been a while. They traded away MVP candidates to get to 78 wins. They wasted Chris Sale and made him so frustrated he shredded his uniforms. People retired to get away from that clubhouse.