Leury Garcia - Tony La Russa and Rick Hahn and beyond....

[White Sox Park]

Yea, the Dodger Broadcast team seemed genuinely confused by LaRussa's move to play a terribly struggling hitter at the top of the order . just like many here, and in other places have been saying . Tony LaRussa is a ****ing joke of a manger!!

[chw42]

6 minutes ago, White Sox Park said:

Yea, the Dodger Broadcast team seemed genuinely confused by LaRussa's move to play a terribly struggling hitter at the top of the order . just like many here, and in other places have been saying . Tony LaRussa is a ****ing joke of a manger!!

Yankees fans were confused af with his decisions during our home series against them. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

59 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This. Leury has been grossly overused the last couple seasons, but injuries will do that.  He's just been healthy, something he generally hasn't been in the past.  $5M AAV is chump change, and while it may be an overpay of $1-2M, its really fairly insignificant in the grand scheme of things.  Could those dollars have been better deployed?  Yeah, sure.  But its really not that big of a deal.  

None of this is to say that Leury hasn't been awful.  He has been.  But he's a fine back of the bench utility player on a contender.  He just hasn't been used that way because the FO didn't sign a capable 2B.  He's only played 35 innings in the OF this season, so while you could add not signing a RF into that comment, it doesn't hold that true YTD 2022. 

I think (know) Larussa loves him, which is really the problem.  

Them signing Leury prevented them from signing a 2B. It was not insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

He also plays a lot even when people are healthy. This narrative that he's a utility guy is nonsense. That's never been his role and never will be with TLR in charge. 

Also, most all of Leury's values has come from his defense and baserunning - two things that age more quickly than ones bat. He's had one season in his entire time with the Sox in which he was an above league average hitter (and that was in a 17 GAME sample). In 2019 Leury generated 1.7 fWAR in 618 PA's; he did that with a 82 wRC+; meaning all his value derived from base running and defense which is not something you want to rely on into your mid-30's. There's no defending extending Garcia for three years. This team had plenty of guys who could slide into that roll.

This team wastes 5-10 million here and there over and over again which adds up to being a significant player. you can't keep excusing everyone of these braindead moves.

[Bob Sacamano]

15 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Them signing Leury prevented them from signing a 2B. It was not insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

He also plays a lot even when people are healthy. This narrative that he's a utility guy is nonsense. That's never been his role and never will be with TLR in charge. 

Also, most all of Leury's values has come from his defense and baserunning - two things that age more quickly than ones bat. He's had one season in his entire time with the Sox in which he was an above league average hitter (and that was in a 17 GAME sample). In 2019 Leury generated 1.7 fWAR in 618 PA's; he did that with a 82 wRC+; meaning all his value derived from base running and defense which is not something you want to rely on into your mid-30's. There's no defending extending Garcia for three years. This team had plenty of guys who could slide into that roll.

This team wastes 5-10 million here and there over and over again which adds up to being a significant player. you can't keep excusing everyone of these braindead moves.

Yeah if everyone was healthy going into the year and everyone managed to stay healthy, Leury would split 2B with Harrison but also start at SS, 3B, LF, CF, RF to give guys a day of rest or to DH. He would almost be a regular.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[chitownsportsfan]

While I disagree with Ray's categorization of Leury as a "dime a dozen" type utility guy (he's not, he's a 1 WAR player that plays 7 positions cromulently) there is absolutely no defending his usage or his contract and the process that has led us to him nearly leading the team in PA 1/3 of the way into the season.

If the Sox had gone and gotten a real solution in RF and 2B and THEN came to Leury and said "go test the market" and the market said well three years 5.5 million AAV is what it's going to take then fine. But that's not the process that occurred. As Ray noted they seemingly had "resign Leury at whatever cost" as a first order of business. That's insane.

[Snopek]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Them signing Leury prevented them from signing a 2B. It was not insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

He also plays a lot even when people are healthy. This narrative that he's a utility guy is nonsense. That's never been his role and never will be with TLR in charge. 

Also, most all of Leury's values has come from his defense and baserunning - two things that age more quickly than ones bat. He's had one season in his entire time with the Sox in which he was an above league average hitter (and that was in a 17 GAME sample). In 2019 Leury generated 1.7 fWAR in 618 PA's; he did that with a 82 wRC+; meaning all his value derived from base running and defense which is not something you want to rely on into your mid-30's. There's no defending extending Garcia for three years. This team had plenty of guys who could slide into that roll.

This team wastes 5-10 million here and there over and over again which adds up to being a significant player. you can't keep excusing everyone of these braindead moves.

Ah, the old Payless Shoes approach. As a kid, my mom would spend more money on 3 - 4 pairs of cheaply made shoes for me than one pair of name brand shoes.

Rick, stop buying Pro Wings and MacGregors.

[soulfly]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I don't want to call out any posters specifically, but I am so tired of reading that Leury Garcia is a "good" utility player. He's not. He's one of the worst players in MLB (this year he has been the 2nd worst player in baseball). Leury Garcia has never been good. He's never been a player you have to lock up - he's always been replaceable (look at how Mendick is playing in limited time this year). The White Sox currently have two players in the minor leagues that would absolutely outproduced Leury Garcia for a minimum wage (Lenyn Sosa and Yolbert). 

After last night, Leury Garcia now has a 24 wRC+. The worst in baseball for anyone with over 100 PA's. 

Since Leury Garcia entered the league, of players with at least 2000 PA's in that span, Leury Garcia has been the 17th worst player in MLB via fWAR. By that same demographic, he's been the 9th worst hitter with a 76 wRC+. By every measure, Leury Garcia is one of the worst players who has been given any sort of consistent playing time in the past decade.

While Leury Garcia leading off is inexplicable - Leury Garcia had the lowest wRC+ for a leadoff hitter this late in a season (with greater than 100 AB's) in at least the past 50 years - the onus can't lie solely on the shoulders of Tony La Russa. That said, the decisions of La Russa have just been inexplicable. La Russa's decision making has gotten so bad that other teams announcers are calling them out publicly: 

Rick Hahn was supposedly serious about winning, but he gave one of the worst players in baseball a three year contract which limited funds to allocate (apparently). Not only did he give him a three year contract, but he was one of the Sox first moves. Rick Hahn viewed Leury Garcia as a must lock up.  Beyond that, this has happened multiple off-seasons now; Rick Hahn feels the need to "beat the market" for players who would likely have no market. No one in baseball was going to give Leury Garcia three years at 16+ million dollars, because as I laid out above, Leury Garcia is awful at baseball.

This team made fans sit through a rebuild for years under the guise of spending and supporting the group once they came into their contention window. I guess Rick Hahn meant supporting them with dollars spent on replaceable utility players who are on the wrong side of 30. Eduardo Escobar, who cost the same yearly as Josh Harrison/Leury Garcia has been worth 1.1 fWAR. That's 2.2 more fWAR than Garcia/Harrison combined despite having similar total PA's. 

If Rick Hahn was serious about winning, he would release Leury Garcia and Josh Harrison today. He would call up Yolbert and Sosa. There was no excuse for Hahn to spend 10+ million dollars on two players who were easily two of the worst players in MLB. I'm tired of watching Leury Garcia and Josh Harrison. How Rick Hahn executed this off-season is baffling. 

And LEURY GARCIA IS NOT A GOOD UTILITY PLAYER. Please stop saying that.

I read all this.  I agree 100%.  But I think you could have just said Rick Hahn sucks and saved yourself even more frustration over one of the worst players in baseball.

[hankchifan]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I don't want to call out any posters specifically, but I am so tired of reading that Leury Garcia is a "good" utility player. He's not. He's one of the worst players in MLB (this year he has been the 2nd worst player in baseball). Leury Garcia has never been good. He's never been a player you have to lock up - he's always been replaceable (look at how Mendick is playing in limited time this year). The White Sox currently have two players in the minor leagues that would absolutely outproduced Leury Garcia for a minimum wage (Lenyn Sosa and Yolbert). 

After last night, Leury Garcia now has a 24 wRC+. The worst in baseball for anyone with over 100 PA's. 

Since Leury Garcia entered the league, of players with at least 2000 PA's in that span, Leury Garcia has been the 17th worst player in MLB via fWAR. By that same demographic, he's been the 9th worst hitter with a 76 wRC+. By every measure, Leury Garcia is one of the worst players who has been given any sort of consistent playing time in the past decade.

While Leury Garcia leading off is inexplicable - Leury Garcia had the lowest wRC+ for a leadoff hitter this late in a season (with greater than 100 AB's) in at least the past 50 years - the onus can't lie solely on the shoulders of Tony La Russa. That said, the decisions of La Russa have just been inexplicable. La Russa's decision making has gotten so bad that other teams announcers are calling them out publicly: 

Rick Hahn was supposedly serious about winning, but he gave one of the worst players in baseball a three year contract which limited funds to allocate (apparently). Not only did he give him a three year contract, but he was one of the Sox first moves. Rick Hahn viewed Leury Garcia as a must lock up.  Beyond that, this has happened multiple off-seasons now; Rick Hahn feels the need to "beat the market" for players who would likely have no market. No one in baseball was going to give Leury Garcia three years at 16+ million dollars, because as I laid out above, Leury Garcia is awful at baseball.

This team made fans sit through a rebuild for years under the guise of spending and supporting the group once they came into their contention window. I guess Rick Hahn meant supporting them with dollars spent on replaceable utility players who are on the wrong side of 30. Eduardo Escobar, who cost the same yearly as Josh Harrison/Leury Garcia has been worth 1.1 fWAR. That's 2.2 more fWAR than Garcia/Harrison combined despite having similar total PA's. 

If Rick Hahn was serious about winning, he would release Leury Garcia and Josh Harrison today. He would call up Yolbert and Sosa. There was no excuse for Hahn to spend 10+ million dollars on two players who were easily two of the worst players in MLB. I'm tired of watching Leury Garcia and Josh Harrison. How Rick Hahn executed this off-season is baffling. 

And LEURY GARCIA IS NOT A GOOD UTILITY PLAYER. Please stop saying that.

Could it be that Hahn has turned out to be incompetent in building a lineup? Prioritizing Leury at the expense of getting a quality 2nd baseman and lefty outfielder, shifting most resources to relievers and fielding a lineup like yesterday with three guys hitting under .200.  What is the reasoning to having so many relievers when we can’t get enough runs?  Trading for Kimbrel last season and not a lefty position player, when we already had an all star closer was not a good deal.

[hankchifan]

5 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Grandal is hurt, and he's been great the past two years. I can deal with Yaz struggling. Should Yaz likely sit it down for a while and see if his legs can bounce back? Sure, the Sox have a good catcher in AAA which is what makes it odd that they don't. Yaz isn't helping anyone playing through this injury.

Sheets has no business on this roster. I remember reading posters and Hahn talking about how the Sox had a DH because Sheets was on the roster. I said on this board a few times that I would guess the best year of Sheet's career from an OPS standpoint would be last year. The Sox weren't in on Schwarber or Castellanos because they had Gavin freaking Sheets. You honestly can't make that shit up.

Sheets needs to go too, I just don't know who you're bringing up for him. Leury and Josh have two guys in the minors that would outplay them - I am incredibly confident in that. 

Grandal and Yoyo are here to stay - both are likely hurt and not playing through it well. I can deal with very good/talented players struggling. They have track records, they have a chance. Leury and Harrison have terrible track records and don't deserve time.

Schwarber would have been a good LH power hitter fit. His OF defense is not great but not worse than Sheets.

[hankchifan]

4 hours ago, soxfan49 said:

Rick Hahn sucks

Tony La Russa sucks

Leury Garcia sucks

The trifecta of sucking big time.

[he gone.]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Adam Frazier bats left and throws RH.

And is on a team trying to win. If the Mariners are in it, so are we and vice versa. The point is and remains if we're trying to grab a lefty ... it's likely going to be to fill that Sheets role of 1B/DH/OF.  Second base does not produce many viable LH options. Dom Smith actually was a very nice, buy low candidate who didn't have a spot on his team before the Alonso injury. Still might be an option in a few weeks. 

[he gone.]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

While I disagree with Ray's categorization of Leury as a "dime a dozen" type utility guy (he's not, he's a 1 WAR player that plays 7 positions cromulently) there is absolutely no defending his usage or his contract and the process that has led us to him nearly leading the team in PA 1/3 of the way into the season.

If the Sox had gone and gotten a real solution in RF and 2B and THEN came to Leury and said "go test the market" and the market said well three years 5.5 million AAV is what it's going to take then fine. But that's not the process that occurred. As Ray noted they seemingly had "resign Leury at whatever cost" as a first order of business. That's insane.

Correct. Also, there's a pretty okay shot if he was DFA that he would pass through waivers. Which is to say there's an okay shot that not one other team would sign him at this price regardless of his past based on these past two months. If you sign a guy to a 3 year deal for not insignificant money, (not to mention with a ten year history) and not two months later it's a contract ALL teams would pass on? That's an awful, no good, rotten, bad signing. 

Leury is not the problem, but he definitely not a solution either. 

[South Side Hit Men]

Hahn handed 40% of his near $200M payroll to Grandal, Lynn, Keuchel, Kimbrel (nee Pollock) & Kelly ($77.3M / $193.7M). This is why the Sox are what they are, not Leury's $5.5M. To add insult to injury, only Keuchel's deal drops off next year (after the $1.5M buyout).

Tony sucks, but Hahn was, is and always will be the primary culprit. You can't build a successful team the Hahn way, overspending on luxuries (catcher, relief pitching) and leaving gaping holes in the lineup and rotation each and every season.

[he gone.]

flip side to that though is you can't build a successful team by overspending in the field and leaving the bullpen a mess... aka, ask phillies fans. 

Truth is you need a balanced team, which is hard to do. There's a reason only a few organizations continuously win. It's really not that easy of a job - it's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle of projected revenues, expiring contracts, Arb years going up, injuries, breakouts, failures, etc. etc. Add in egos, clubhouse vibes, jerry wanting to spend, not spend? forcing TLR on you? We've seen talented teams in the past that were station to station guys and that was frustrating too... thome, konerko, AJ, jermaine? god i hated that sometimes. you'd have a single, single, single and no runs in. A strikeout and a double play. 

This roster has definitely been banged up and it's also been handled with kids gloves. TLR seems to project upon Yoan and Yaz and Vaughn, etc. that they're all 77 years old and need days of rest for "sore legs" or "played on that turf" ... it's an out of touch manager who is stuck in the 80's playing L/R matchups and we just dont have that roster. Either Hahn is going to have to get risky and push more chips in on a year that's looking bad and acquire a guy like Josh Bell or we just need to hope something clicks. 

[Balta1701]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Hahn handed 40% of his near $200M payroll to Grandal, Lynn, Keuchel, Kimbrel (nee Pollock) & Kelly ($77.3M / $193.7M). This is why the Sox are what they are, not Leury's $5.5M. To add insult to injury, only Keuchel's deal drops off next year (after the $1.5M buyout).

Tony sucks, but Hahn was, is and always will be the primary culprit. You can't build a successful team the Hahn way, overspending on luxuries (catcher, relief pitching) and leaving gaping holes in the lineup and rotation each and every season.

While we don’t and won’t ever know all the details, they were pretty clear that Kelly was signed because LaRussa wanted it. Could others have been that?

https://dodgerblue.com/dodgers-rumors-tony-la-russa-driving-force-behind-joe-kelly-signing-with-white-sox/2022/03/20/amp/

If Rick Hahn were to go into an interview with Arte Moreno next year and said “I was told to give the manager the team he wanted, so I did the signings he asked for. I tried to show them the loyal they showed me over 10 years, but it reached a point where it was falling apart so much that I had to demand the power to make changes, and when ownership refused, I finally resigned.” - even if it’s not totally true, it’s believable and dignified enough to believe he would get another job with that reply.

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While we don’t and won’t ever know all the details, they were pretty clear that Kelly was signed because LaRussa wanted it. Could others have been that?

https://dodgerblue.com/dodgers-rumors-tony-la-russa-driving-force-behind-joe-kelly-signing-with-white-sox/2022/03/20/amp/

If Rick Hahn were to go into an interview with Arte Moreno next year and said “I was told to give the manager the team he wanted, so I did the signings he asked for. I tried to show them the loyal they showed me over 10 years, but it reached a point where it was falling apart so much that I had to demand the power to make changes, and when ownership refused, I finally resigned.” - even if it’s not totally true, it’s believable and dignified enough to believe he would get another job with that reply.

The Angels are never going to give Rick Hahn a blank checkbook. That would be the definition of insanity.

[Highland]

Right now I have little faith in this organization. Two reasons they are still in it are the bad division and the diluted playoff system. I don't think this team will live up to the expectations of the rebuild in the long run. Too many things are going wrong and will continue to go wrong.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

While we don’t and won’t ever know all the details, they were pretty clear that Kelly was signed because LaRussa wanted it. Could others have been that?

https://dodgerblue.com/dodgers-rumors-tony-la-russa-driving-force-behind-joe-kelly-signing-with-white-sox/2022/03/20/amp/

If Rick Hahn were to go into an interview with Arte Moreno next year and said “I was told to give the manager the team he wanted, so I did the signings he asked for. I tried to show them the loyal they showed me over 10 years, but it reached a point where it was falling apart so much that I had to demand the power to make changes, and when ownership refused, I finally resigned.” - even if it’s not totally true, it’s believable and dignified enough to believe he would get another job with that reply.

Even if Hahn had zero say since late October 2020, ceding all decisions to Tony (starting with firing the trainer Tony may have been uncomfortable with in the dugout, and all subsequent free agent acquisitions), Grandal and Keuchel, the two largest $ contracts, were signed prior to TLR’s arrival.

Rick (and Kenny) were most excited about Kimbrel. Tony trashed the deal after losing the playoffs, stating Craig was pitching outside of his comfortable role. Tony may have been onboard in July, but this was Hahn’s deal.

I’d agree with the sentiment Tony played a role, perhaps made the call, signing the following players he was familiar from his managerial and or Arizona/Angels years:

• Adam Eaton
• Jake Lamb
• Joe Kelly
• Liam Hendriks (Hahn did a good job with the contract)
• Josh Harrison

Pollock was never a RF, it was another unforced error when they could have just let Kimbrel walk, and used this salary more productively. Now they are likely stuck with another $10M next year, handcuffing options to fill their forever holes in RF and 2B in 2023.

[ChiSox59]

18 hours ago, he gone. said:

Correct. Also, there's a pretty okay shot if he was DFA that he would pass through waivers. Which is to say there's an okay shot that not one other team would sign him at this price regardless of his past based on these past two months. If you sign a guy to a 3 year deal for not insignificant money, (not to mention with a ten year history) and not two months later it's a contract ALL teams would pass on? That's an awful, no good, rotten, bad signing. 

Leury is not the problem, but he definitely not a solution either. 

Isn't that literally what free agency is, though?  Players go the highest bidder probably 90%+ of the time.  That means that all other 29 clubs didn't want to match or exceed that price.  If that is your barometer for a good FA signing, almost all of them across the league are bad.  

*This is not an endorsement of needlessly giving Leury 3 years*

Edited June 10, 2022 by ChiSox59

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Even if Hahn had zero say since late October 2020, ceding all decisions to Tony (starting with firing the trainer Tony may have been uncomfortable with in the dugout, and all subsequent free agent acquisitions), Grandal and Keuchel, the two largest $ contracts, were signed prior to TLR’s arrival.

Rick (and Kenny) were most excited about Kimbrel. Tony trashed the deal after losing the playoffs, stating Craig was pitching outside of his comfortable role. Tony may have been onboard in July, but this was Hahn’s deal.

I’d agree with the sentiment Tony played a role, perhaps made the call, signing the following players he was familiar from his managerial and or Arizona/Angels years:

• Adam Eaton
• Jake Lamb
• Joe Kelly
• Liam Hendriks (Hahn did a good job with the contract)
• Josh Harrison

Pollock was never a RF, it was another unforced error when they could have just let Kimbrel walk, and used this salary more productively. Now they are likely stuck with another $10M next year, handcuffing options to fill their forever holes in RF and 2B in 2023.

If we are pondering these things -AJ Pollock was with the DBacks for LaRussa’s entire time there.

And Leury sure seems to have LaRussa’s favor as well.

[South Side Hit Men]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

If we are pondering these things -AJ Pollock was with the DBacks for LaRussa’s entire time there.

And Leury sure seems to have LaRussa’s favor as well.

I’d co-sign those two in the TLR column, though the team had limited, perhaps a single option, in terms of teams willing and able to take Kimbrel’s contract.

I was hoping for a Lux or a young pitcher instead of a veteran LF in terms of return. Slim and none were the possibilities Pollock would be successful as an everyday RF. They pulled the plug relatively quickly after he dropped the ball and lost the game in Detroit.

[he gone.]

22 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Isn't that literally what free agency is, though?  Players go the highest bidder probably 90%+ of the time.  That means that all other 29 clubs didn't want to match or exceed that price.  If that is your barometer for a good FA signing, almost all of them across the league are bad.  

*This is not an endorsement of needlessly giving Leury 3 years*

i guess you can say that ... but totally different too. You put Graveman on waivers and he's claimed right away. Same with Yaz, same with Hendriks, etc. etc. 

Guys only pass through waivers when the cost of the contract well exceeds the value of the player. aka, Cano, Keuchel, Pujols, etc. The difference being most of those type of pass through waivers happen at the end of pricey, longer term contracts and generally post injury and with significant decline. 

The contract given to Leury was after a decade with the team and he's currently healthy. nothing has changed with him and he'd pass through. it was just a very clear overpay.

[caulfield12]

29 minutes ago, he gone. said:

i guess you can say that ... but totally different too. You put Graveman on waivers and he's claimed right away. Same with Yaz, same with Hendriks, etc. etc. 

Guys only pass through waivers when the cost of the contract well exceeds the value of the player. aka, Cano, Keuchel, Pujols, etc. The difference being most of those type of pass through waivers happen at the end of pricey, longer term contracts and generally post injury and with significant decline. 

The contract given to Leury was after a decade with the team and he's currently healthy. nothing has changed with him and he'd pass through. it was just a very clear overpay.

Nobody in baseball would claim Grandal's contract...

[he gone.]

that's your opinion. i very much think a team would take a 1.5 year flier on his contract. fans of teams have a short memory. plenty of teams in my opinion would take him including the yankees, astros, giants, angels, mets, twins, padres ... 

$20-25mm is pocket change to teams who actually care. For the Sox? not so. 

[caulfield12]

26 minutes ago, he gone. said:

that's your opinion. i very much think a team would take a 1.5 year flier on his contract. fans of teams have a short memory. plenty of teams in my opinion would take him including the yankees, astros, giants, angels, mets, twins, padres ... 

$20-25mm is pocket change to teams who actually care. For the Sox? not so. 

Twins have Jeffers/Sanchez.  Padres are maxed out on payroll and holding it for an outfielder.  Nola and Alfaro have been average/okay.  Mets already have big McCann deal.  Yankees are prioritizing defense and have more than enough offense. SF has a young guy in Bart and won’t block him.

With all the lingering injuries the last two years…not seeing it.

Never hurts to try to run him through waivers to see if there’s any interest.

 

And in the end, they wouldn’t be willing to meet the price for Contreras after the Kimbrel trade blew up last year in such a high profile way.

Edited June 12, 2022 by caulfield12