Bob Sacamano Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 42 minutes ago, AJ'S Cousin said: Agree but he’s an outfielder by trade. And much faster at getting to a ball down the line Idk he looked bad in RF. Might as well play him at his natural position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 A TA scouting report from the mariners: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 hours ago, Frankensteiner said: I would still rather go with Burger at DH and Vaugh in RF, but it's pretty much pick your poison between Burger and Vaughn being in the field. Anecdotally, Burger's mistakes seem more costly but I have no idea what the advanced metrics say. Recency bias and errors at 3rd base are errors. Errors or lack of speed in the OF don't look as bad because a ball just out of reach in the OF is a double but not an error. So in the OF the lack of range hurts you but at 3rd you get actual errors on your record that effect your fielding percentage. This is why DRS and OAA is used. Fangraphs 2022 Burger 3B 281 innings -4 DRS ,-4 OAA Vaughn RF 130 inning -4 DRS , -1 OAA, 22 Putouts Vaughn LF 138.1 Innings -4 DRS, -6 OAA 27 Putouts Vaughn has been worth .9 fWAR Mendick .7 fWAR Burger .6 fWAR Vaughn Mendick and Burger have been the 4th, 5th and 6th most valuable members of the Sox position players. WAR is capable of going up or down . It appears Vaughn is better in RF but consider the ball probably finds him less in RF For anyone talking about sending Mendick or Burger down Mendick is 5th on the Sox in fWAR which has been racked up in a short period of time, most of it since TA was injured. As mentioned 5th and 6th most valuable position players for the Sox this season Burger was leading the team in HR for a short time until Abreu passed him. Vaughn's moved up his fWAR with his hitting lately . I'm pretty sure it was at .6 last week. Draw your own conclusions on the defensive data . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Burger is decent at 3B. It's a one step and fire position. Being slow in a straight line isn't important it's all about quickness, hands and arm. Jake isn't some elite 3B but he's passable. Vaughn is not passable in the OF. He was there last year just as a way to get him on the field as an Eloy replacement. He did an OK job for a guy thrown to the wolves but it's obvious his speed severely limits him in the OF. He should be a 1B but we have the "I can't ever DH" guy over there I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 14 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Recency bias and errors at 3rd base are errors. Errors or lack of speed in the OF don't look as bad because a ball just out of reach in the OF is a double but not an error. So in the OF the lack of range hurts you but at 3rd you get actual errors on your record that effect your fielding percentage. This is why DRS and OAA is used. Fangraphs 2022 Burger 3B 281 innings -4 DRS ,-4 OAA Vaughn RF 130 inning -4 DRS , -1 OAA, 22 Putouts Vaughn LF 138.1 Innings -4 DRS, -6 OAA 27 Putouts Vaughn has been worth .9 fWAR Mendick .7 fWAR Burger .6 fWAR Vaughn Mendick and Burger have been the 4th, 5th and 6th most valuable members of the Sox position players. WAR is capable of going up or down . It appears Vaughn is better in RF but consider the ball probably finds him less in RF For anyone talking about sending Mendick or Burger down Mendick is 5th on the Sox in fWAR which has been racked up in a short period of time, most of it since TA was injured. As mentioned 5th and 6th most valuable position players for the Sox this season Burger was leading the team in HR for a short time until Abreu passed him. Vaughn's moved up his fWAR with his hitting lately . I'm pretty sure it was at .6 last week. Draw your own conclusions on the defensive data . That's not really accurate. Not getting to a ball at 3B is the same as not getting to ball in RF. It affects your range factor, but you probably aren't getting an error unless it goes completely under your glove or something. But in both cases why you would get an error would be similar. Booting a ball in the IF and booting a ball in the OF are also similar in that those are what you get an error for. The one advantage the 3B gets is sometimes errors hide in things like botched double plays where you can get one out, but not the two you should have got, as we have seen many times this year. The other thing of note is that what Burger and Vaughn are doing defensively isn't really relevant to each other,because they aren't in competition with each other for a defensive position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Burger is decent at 3B. It's a one step and fire position. Being slow in a straight line isn't important it's all about quickness, hands and arm. Jake isn't some elite 3B but he's passable. Vaughn is not passable in the OF. He was there last year just as a way to get him on the field as an Eloy replacement. He did an OK job for a guy thrown to the wolves but it's obvious his speed severely limits him in the OF. He should be a 1B but we have the "I can't ever DH" guy over there I guess. If you noticed Burger has more innings at 3rd than Vaughn does in the OF this season .Also Vaughn is hitting .463 in 10 games at DH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Don't really think that's at all what he was saying. He's just saying that Burger isn't a bad 3B, or at least isn't terrible, and Vaughn is just flat terrible in either corner OF spot. He even said errors for OF aren't usually illustrative at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: If you noticed Burger has more innings at 3rd than Vaughn does in the OF this season .Also Vaughn is hitting .463 in 10 games at DH. Right, in more innings a fairly less pronounced suck. And at a harder position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 29 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: That's not really accurate. Not getting to a ball at 3B is the same as not getting to ball in RF. It affects your range factor, but you probably aren't getting an error unless it goes completely under your glove or something. But in both cases why you would get an error would be similar. Booting a ball in the IF and booting a ball in the OF are also similar in that those are what you get an error for. The one advantage the 3B gets is sometimes errors hide in things like botched double plays where you can get one out, but not the two you should have got, as we have seen many times this year. The other thing of note is that what Burger and Vaughn are doing defensively isn't really relevant to each other,because they aren't in competition with each other for a defensive position. DRS and OAA take range into consideration at both positions. Range means more to an OF than to a 3rd baseman which is more of a reaction position. Vaughn OF totals for OAA is a -7 while Burger in 13 more innings is -4 OAA. So it is inaccurate to say "not getting to a ball at 3rd base is the same as not getting to a ball in RF." In the OF you might have to take 20-25 max strides to get to a ball whereas at 3rd base it's usually 2 or 3 steps max to the left or right. More if you are coming in on a ball. The slower you are the less balls you can get to in the OF. Every slow stride costs you ground. DRS and OAA are how you do relative to the average player at the position so not getting to balls is the reason for his low totals not because he boots balls. A 3rd baseman will always have more errors than an OF in the same number of innings. While I am using the cold hard facts from Fangraphs you counter with anecdotal evidence about some advantage for a 3rd baseman's for "many" botched DP's. Please use some evidence to back up your claims. Edited June 21, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 I could see Earl Weaver working with Vaughn in RF using a rope and a whip. Probm solved. The biggest help would be getting a better read and jump on the ball. Lack of speed otherwise does not seem solvable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: DRS and OAA take range into consideration at both positions. Range means more to an OF than to a 3rd baseman which is more of a reaction position. Vaughn OF totals for OAA is a -7 while Burger in 13 more innings is -4 OAA. So it is inaccurate to say "not getting to a ball at 3rd base is the same as not getting to a ball in the RF." In the OF you might have to take 20-25 max strides to get to a ball whereas at 3rd base it's usually 2 or 3 steps max to the left or right. More if you are coming in on a ball. It's the same in that you don't get errors for each. You said a ball out of range in the OF is just a hit. It's the same thing in the IF. You don't get errors at 3rd for a ball that is out of your range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Isn’t it as simple as being big and slow at 3B is preferable to being big and slow in the OF? And then, our team is really just big and slow everywhere for the most part, with gazelles up the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: It's the same in that you don't get errors for each. You said a ball out of range in the OF is just a hit. It's the same thing in the IF. You don't get errors at 3rd for a ball that is out of your range. So you don't think range means more to an OF than it does to an infielder ? In the OF you are taking many strides to catch balls in the gap, down the line, over your head and in front of you. I'm not really sure what you are arguing. Range means much more to any OF position than it does to 3rd base. Are you arguing that the DRS and OAA numbers showing Vaughn is a worse OF than Burger is a 3rd baseman is some flaw in those stats ? Maybe you are just trying to convolute things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: So you don't think range means more to an OF than it does to an infielder ? In the OF you are taking many strides to catch balls in the gap, down the line, over your head and in front of you. I'm not really sure what you are arguing. Range means much more to any OF position than it does to 3rd base. Are you arguing that the DRS and OAA numbers showing Vaughn is a worse OF than Burger is a 3rd baseman is some flaw in those stats ? Maybe you are just trying to convolute things. You argued that lack of range creates errors at 3rd, but not in RF. That is patently false. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 32 minutes ago, Jerksticks said: Isn’t it as simple as being big and slow at 3B is preferable to being big and slow in the OF? And then, our team is really just big and slow everywhere for the most part, with gazelles up the middle. Pretty much it is that simple. Burger can get better at 3rd with practice and breaking some bad habits. Vaughn won't get any faster than he is right now and everyone knows he's playing out of position. Vaughn's sprint speed and times from Home to 1st are worse than last year. SS 26.4 ft/sec in2021 , 26.0 in 2022. Home to 1st 4.66 in 2021, 4.73 in 2022. Burger Sprint speed is not bad for his position 27.7 this year and last year and 4.49 Home to 1st. He is 12th among 3rd baseman for Sprint Speed whereas Vaughn is 60th. Burger Sprint speed is 175th in the league and Vaughn 375th in 2022. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 41 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: You argued that lack of range creates errors at 3rd, but not in RF. That is patently false. no, at 3B a "lack of range" is totally more likely to result in a ball off your glove or a rushed throw and that's more likely to be an error on the scoresheet then taking a bad route with a piano on your back and turning an out into a triple in RF, come on you're really dug in here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Got a good feeling about Dylan in the City Connects 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Let's go White Sox !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 decent enough start 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Cease looks crispy so far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 ok keep this up for 7 innings please. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 uh, that's the guy we want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 22, 2022 Share Posted June 22, 2022 Can we keep the 1st inning Dylan for another 6 innings ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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