Great Expectations

[coldwatersox]

Jake Lamb was an all star for a season. He also was a mediocre player for the White Sox. A.J. Pollack once won a gold glove. He misplayed  a ball at the wall against the Tigers in game one earlier this season and overran a catchable ball near the fence during a recent game against the Angels. The point is that many players have a single great season but fail to produce stellar performances over a career. Anyone is capable of having a big or outlier year. Few have the careers of Frank Thomas, Nellie Fox, or Luis Aparicio. 

In 2019 and 2020 I genuinely believed that the White Sox roster was packed with perennial All Star quality players --- Anderson, Abreu, Eloy, Grandal, Yoan, Luis, and Nicky Two Strikes.  Now I believe that I was mistaken, except for Anderson and maybe Jose. 

Eloy, Yoan, and Luis are above average but unreliable performers on the field. Each may experience one, perhaps two great seasons, but not sustain excellence over the course of  a lenghty career. Won't happen. Too many soft tissue injuries, poor command of the strike zone, lapses of concentration and effort in the field. 

The fear is that if Eloy, Yoan, or Luis is/are traded then soon thereafter the player will suddenly fulfill the great expectations we have had for him. But, that is unlikely to happen for any of those players. More likely, each will have a career liken to Avi Garcia or Jorge Soler rather than Aaron Judge or Mike Trout. Wishing and hoping doesn't make it happen. 

As to Nicky Two Strikes, he is injury prone and unreliable but in a trade with the Cubs the White Sox got a zero return, anyway. As to Gandal, he is mediocre at best behind the plate and only a streak hitter approaching old age in the life expectancy of a major league player. Besides, Grandal is injury prone, too.

Lynn, Gio, Cease, are Kopech are single A quality players compared, for example, to Verlander in today's game. They have no resemblance whatsoever to Jemkins, Gibson, Spahn, Ford, and Robin Roberts who posted wonderful careers without extensive injury and had the capacity to pitch beyond the sixth inning.  

The White Sox are an average team without the roster that would justify the great expectations we had prior to this disappointing season.

[Quin]

9 minutes ago, coldwatersox said:

Jake Lamb was an all star for a season. He also was a mediocre player for the White Sox. A.J. Pollack once won a gold glove. He misplayed  a ball at the wall against the Tigers in game one earlier this season and overran a catchable ball near the fence during a recent game against the Angels. The point is that many players have a single great season but fail to produce stellar performances over a career. Anyone is capable of having a big or outlier year. Few have the careers of Frank Thomas, Nellie Fox, or Luis Aparicio. 

In 2019 and 2020 I genuinely believed that the White Sox roster was packed with perennial All Star quality players --- Anderson, Abreu, Eloy, Grandal, Yoan, Luis, and Nicky Two Strikes.  Now I believe that I was mistaken, except for Anderson and maybe Jose. 

Eloy, Yoan, and Luis are above average but unreliable performers on the field. Each may experience one, perhaps two great seasons, but not sustain excellence over the course of  a lenghty career. Won't happen. Too many soft tissue injuries, poor command of the strike zone, lapses of concentration and effort in the field. 

The fear is that if Eloy, Yoan, or Luis is/are traded then soon thereafter the player will suddenly fulfill the great expectations we have had for him. But, that is unlikely to happen for any of those players. More likely, each will have a career liken to Avi Garcia or Jorge Soler rather than Aaron Judge or Mike Trout. Wishing and hoping doesn't make it happen. 

As to Nicky Two Strikes, he is injury prone and unreliable but in a trade with the Cubs the White Sox got a zero return, anyway. As to Gandal, he is mediocre at best behind the plate and only a streak hitter approaching old age in the life expectancy of a major league player. Besides, Grandal is injury prone, too.

Lynn, Gio, Cease, are Kopech are single A quality players compared, for example, to Verlander in today's game. They have no resemblance whatsoever to Jemkins, Gibson, Spahn, Ford, and Robin Roberts who posted wonderful careers without extensive injury and had the capacity to pitch beyond the sixth inning.  

The White Sox are an average team without the roster that would justify the great expectations we had prior to this disappointing season.

I think my biggest problem/frustration is that if even Ricky Renteria were still here, we'd be seeing better out of Eloy, Yoan, and Robert (when healthy). He couldn't manage a bullpen, but the team was enjoyable and played hard for Ricky.

[T R U]

This season is so frustrating because everything looked so bright coming out of 2020.

Its like this teams demise started once Tony LaRussa was hired. ?

[Snopek]

43 minutes ago, coldwatersox said:

Jake Lamb was an all star for a season. He also was a mediocre player for the White Sox. A.J. Pollack once won a gold glove. He misplayed  a ball at the wall against the Tigers in game one earlier this season and overran a catchable ball near the fence during a recent game against the Angels. The point is that many players have a single great season but fail to produce stellar performances over a career. Anyone is capable of having a big or outlier year. Few have the careers of Frank Thomas, Nellie Fox, or Luis Aparicio. 

In 2019 and 2020 I genuinely believed that the White Sox roster was packed with perennial All Star quality players --- Anderson, Abreu, Eloy, Grandal, Yoan, Luis, and Nicky Two Strikes.  Now I believe that I was mistaken, except for Anderson and maybe Jose. 

Eloy, Yoan, and Luis are above average but unreliable performers on the field. Each may experience one, perhaps two great seasons, but not sustain excellence over the course of  a lenghty career. Won't happen. Too many soft tissue injuries, poor command of the strike zone, lapses of concentration and effort in the field. 

The fear is that if Eloy, Yoan, or Luis is/are traded then soon thereafter the player will suddenly fulfill the great expectations we have had for him. But, that is unlikely to happen for any of those players. More likely, each will have a career liken to Avi Garcia or Jorge Soler rather than Aaron Judge or Mike Trout. Wishing and hoping doesn't make it happen. 

As to Nicky Two Strikes, he is injury prone and unreliable but in a trade with the Cubs the White Sox got a zero return, anyway. As to Gandal, he is mediocre at best behind the plate and only a streak hitter approaching old age in the life expectancy of a major league player. Besides, Grandal is injury prone, too.

Lynn, Gio, Cease, are Kopech are single A quality players compared, for example, to Verlander in today's game. They have no resemblance whatsoever to Jemkins, Gibson, Spahn, Ford, and Robin Roberts who posted wonderful careers without extensive injury and had the capacity to pitch beyond the sixth inning.  

The White Sox are an average team without the roster that would justify the great expectations we had prior to this disappointing season.

I'm as jaded as the next person, but what makes you certain these things won't ever improve?

[South Side Hit Men]

25 minutes ago, Quin said:

I think my biggest problem/frustration is that if even Ricky Renteria were still here, we'd be seeing better out of Eloy, Yoan, and Robert (when healthy). He couldn't manage a bullpen, but the team was enjoyable and played hard for Ricky.

They were also fun to watch and cheer for. I still hope the players do well. Would also take Ricky’s bullpen management (and managing of starters) over Tony.

As to the OP, disagree with Luis, he’s 24 and with Vaughn and Anderson, a top performer. He’s only at  just over a full season with the owner’s 2020 lockout. Also plays a valuable defensive position, though i hoped he continued to make strides there like he did under Ricky. He seems to have taken a step backwards like many have under Tony.

Grandal is just an older catcher with expected performance and health declines. A handful of catchers in the history of baseball have performed in the mid 30s at the level they are paying him. It’s why no other team came close to matching that deal in length. lt’s one of several overpays for players playing on their final substantial ML contract, typical under the Decade of Hahn.

 

[SonofaRoache]

6 minutes ago, T R U said:

This season is so frustrating because everything looked so bright coming out of 2020.

Its like this teams demise started once Tony LaRussa was hired. ?

Why was 2020 so much fun? We only played the Central Divisions and the season was 60 games starting in July. That team doesn't make the playoffs in a real season with only one reliable SP. 

[Snopek]

9 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Why was 2020 so much fun? We only played the Central Divisions and the season was 60 games starting in July. That team doesn't make the playoffs in a real season with only one reliable SP. 

It wasn't a great season or anything, but it felt like the team was finally transitioning out of the rebuild and into a potential contender. There was some positive momentum.

[SonofaRoache]

Just now, Snopek said:

It wasn't a great season or anything, but it felt like the team was finally transitioning out of the rebuild and into a potential contender. There was some positive momentum.

There was. But that season also masked a lot of issues with the FO and some of the players. We didn't look at it objectively because we were so excited to see this thing blossom. And that is the way we should have looked at it, just sucks that it may have been false hope. 

[joejoesox]

too soon to write off Robert as just a slightly above average player, I think he will become a beast

[T R U]

1 hour ago, SonofaRoache said:

Why was 2020 so much fun? We only played the Central Divisions and the season was 60 games starting in July. That team doesn't make the playoffs in a real season with only one reliable SP. 

I meant more along the lines of the prospects were coming up and we were turning the corner from rebuilding to contender.

[Jack Parkman]

It's too soon to write off Robert and Vaughn improving, but both need to show more game power and take a step forward or they will remain merely very good. 

[Chimpton]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

I'm as jaded as the next person, but what makes you certain these things won't ever improve?

Because the current hitting coach is a joke so unless they get someone who improves players rather than making them worse, then fulfilling their potential will be unlikely.

[RibbieRubarb]

4 hours ago, coldwatersox said:

Lynn, Gio, Cease, are Kopech are single A quality players

[JoshPR]

4 hours ago, Quin said:

I think my biggest problem/frustration is that if even Ricky Renteria were still here, we'd be seeing better out of Eloy, Yoan, and Robert (when healthy). He couldn't manage a bullpen, but the team was enjoyable and played hard for Ricky.

He could have learned that and always made me wonder how much influence coop had on that. The grass was not greener on the other side for the sox and a lot of so talk posters who bitched and moaned daily bout ricky

[The Mighty Mite]

The 2022 White Sox were destined to fail when the second base and right field issues were not resolved, we needed better than Pollock and Harrison and then it was one injury after another and at this point I don't see the Sox contending this year, too many injuries and players who have no clue at the plate with some having trouble catching the ball. We can't blow it up but a re-tool will be needed.

[caulfield12]

36 minutes ago, RibbieRubarb said:

Cease has the highest whiff rate of ANY AL pitcher on a single pitch, his slider.

Edited June 30, 2022 by caulfield12

[Snopek]

40 minutes ago, JoshPR said:

He could have learned that and always made me wonder how much influence coop had on that. The grass was not greener on the other side for the sox and a lot of so talk posters who bitched and moaned daily bout ricky

Well it turns out it wasn’t even grass on the other side, it was an abandoned parking lot full of weeds and trash.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Snopek said:

Well it turns out it wasn’t even grass on the other side, it was an abandoned parking lot full of weeds and trash.

It’s not like Hinch has done all that much, but there’s no way he could have been THIS bad.

If only they gave Terry Francona a shot, and it has been multiple times they could have given him the job.  Same with Leyland.  We can’t even identify the talent within the organization, let alone externally.

Edited June 30, 2022 by caulfield12

[chitownsportsfan]

Cool we've reached the "look at me in my feelings" part of the season for new topics. Get it together man, b**** in the game threads like everybody else or in one of the already numerous threads bitching about the season.

[michelangelosmonkey]

I think the fundamental problem we all have is impatience.  Almost nobody burns up the league at 25.  Players come up and they have to adjust.  So we see glimpses of Robert for thirty games and we say "he's going to be one of the greatest ever" and then he goes in a slump and we say he is garbage.   The reality is baseball players and pitchers peak at 30  (J.C. Bradbury and published in Journal of Sports Sciences) or 28 (Mitchel Lichtman of Hardball Times).  The core of our team are young guys who have all flashed greatness.  Look at the list of players that have not even hit peak from the most conservative estimate.

Player	Age
Garrett Crochet	23
Andrew Vaughn	24
Luis Robert	24
Eloy Jiménez	25
Gavin Sheets	26
Jake Burger	26
Michael Kopech	26
Dylan Cease	26
Yoan Moncada	27
Lucas Giolito	27

 Vaughn, Robert and Jimenez are babies.  Cease and Kopech are just learning to be great.  To give up on those five because of a few injuries is madness.  Look at Byron Buxton.  Hurt at 24.  Hurt at 25. Covid season at 26 and now the last two years he's one of the best player in baseball. Moncado has been near great for the last three years and you are dumping him because of a bad 30 games?    Gio has been near great for the last three years and you are dumping him because of a bad 5 starts?   So we have rising stars coupled with a couple of players at their peak (Anderson, Bummer, Reylo) or past their peak (Lynn, Abreu, Grandal, Hendricks) and suddenly a very exciting crop of minor leaguers.   The Sox have had an incredibly bad run of luck with injuries this year...and cold starts and yes I suspect the team is down and frustrated.  But I still think they are going to get healthy and hot.  And if not this season??  Look at that Padres last season...sometimes you have all the parts but it takes some hard times before you learn how this all fits together.  

 

[reiks12]

They really need to retool. Tell TLR he is going to call it quits after this season. Find a manager from outside the org, maybe the AA or AAA coach in the Astros system. Something like that. Get a hitting director to find an analytical approach that can be taught at all levels of the minors. Do the same for pitching. Replace all the "stats are for nerds" FO guys with analytical ones. Replace Getz with someone who understands both. Fire Duncan for someone who actually took a math class before.

Trade Abreu, Pollock at the deadline. Get what you can. Listen on offers for Giolito. Assess the trainers, what the fuck are they doing? Not doing? Fire Menechino twice and Howie yesterday. 

Take a pillow and smother Jerry while hes sleeping. Call it a natural death. See if Cuban wants to own a baseball club. 

2023 would look bright if the above happened.

[reiks12]

10 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The Sox have had an incredibly bad run of luck with injuries this year...

Is it luck if it involves the same injuries and for multiple years?

[SoxBlanco]

5 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

That team doesn't make the playoffs in a real season with only one reliable SP. 

Who was the one reliable SP?

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I think the fundamental problem we all have is impatience.  Almost nobody burns up the league at 25.  Players come up and they have to adjust.  So we see glimpses of Robert for thirty games and we say "he's going to be one of the greatest ever" and then he goes in a slump and we say he is garbage.   The reality is baseball players and pitchers peak at 30  (J.C. Bradbury and published in Journal of Sports Sciences) or 28 (Mitchel Lichtman of Hardball Times).  The core of our team are young guys who have all flashed greatness.  Look at the list of players that have not even hit peak from the most conservative estimate.

Player	Age
Garrett Crochet	23
Andrew Vaughn	24
Luis Robert	24
Eloy Jiménez	25
Gavin Sheets	26
Jake Burger	26
Michael Kopech	26
Dylan Cease	26
Yoan Moncada	27
Lucas Giolito	27

 Vaughn, Robert and Jimenez are babies.  Cease and Kopech are just learning to be great.  To give up on those five because of a few injuries is madness.  Look at Byron Buxton.  Hurt at 24.  Hurt at 25. Covid season at 26 and now the last two years he's one of the best player in baseball. Moncado has been near great for the last three years and you are dumping him because of a bad 30 games?    Gio has been near great for the last three years and you are dumping him because of a bad 5 starts?   So we have rising stars coupled with a couple of players at their peak (Anderson, Bummer, Reylo) or past their peak (Lynn, Abreu, Grandal, Hendricks) and suddenly a very exciting crop of minor leaguers.   The Sox have had an incredibly bad run of luck with injuries this year...and cold starts and yes I suspect the team is down and frustrated.  But I still think they are going to get healthy and hot.  And if not this season??  Look at that Padres last season...sometimes you have all the parts but it takes some hard times before you learn how this all fits together.  

 

Well there’s plenty of reason for impatience. First of all, this is Moncada’s 6th big league season not counting his Boston time. 4th for Eloy, 3rd for Robert. Kopech made his big league debut 4 years ago. Many guys hit their athletic and performance peaks at 26 these days. These guys aren’t babies, Vaughn excluded. Coming into the year, the White Sox had a roster that was in the top 10 of oldest in the league. This roster is old enough that it was easy to project then being hurt a lot this year.

But there are also other key issues. Giolito is a free agent next season. Abreu this season. Kopech and Cease both hit arbitration next year so their salaries go up. With the sheer number of holes - they either can’t afford many busts or they need a steadier supply of guys from the minors taking roles and contributing, and they aren’t getting it.

[Jack Parkman]

I mean really, the last two seasons all come down to what David Samson said a few years ago. Reinsdorf isn't interested in winning championships, he's interested in being just good enough to keep fans engaged.