Great Expectations

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

You don't get credit for winning the equivelant of 90 games in a sixty game season, especially when they were gassed at the end (fired their manager because of it!) and got bounced in the first round to a team they should have beat.

It may be impressive to say the sox have made playoffs two years in a row, but 2 playoff years in a 9 year span isn't even impressive to Rockies fans.

He has not had a restrictive payroll, the Guardians have a restrictive payroll. They have made the playoffs 5 times in that span and never finished lower than 3rd.

The Twins have a restrictive payroll, they have also made the playoffs more than Hahn and look likely/possible to make playoffs this year (on pace for 88 wins).

The white sox purposely traded away all assets, lost purposely for 3 years straight and were rewarded with two playoff births. They have a maxed out payroll now. They have the 30th ranked farm. Their core players are underperforming.

Yeah I think Hahn is perfect for this, definitely showed to be shrewder than maybe 1 other GM in baseball.

That 2000 playoff appearance was built on the backs of beating the heck out of the Tigers and Royals with the unbalanced schedule.

Even then, they collapsed under pressure over the last couple of weeks and might have faded completely with another 10-15 games on the schedule against better competition from the AL East and West or simply more games against the Twins and Indians.

Edited July 1, 2022 by caulfield12

[michelangelosmonkey]

19 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Abrams and Kim wouldn’t be playing if not for the Tatis injury.  Azocar is Engel or Leury.  Last man on the roster. Grisham has always been a complementary player, not expected to be a superstar like Moncada.  Compare Jimenez and Tatis for total fWAR in their careers and they’re not even in the same vicinity.

You’re certainly going out of your way to ignore Alfaro, Machado, Cronenworth, Voit, Profar, etc.

The Padres have older position players compared to 2-3 years ago (see White Sox) but they also have Machado and Tatis.  And Hosmer and Myers will be out the door soon.

Abrams has had less minor league at bats than Vaughn and he came from a high school, not a top Division 1 college program.

 

So you want the third place roster in the worst division in baseball over the second best in the second best division?

9 games separating them in the standings?

 

The Padres have four starting pitchers over 114 ERA+, with Musgrove at 172.  Manaea is #5 at 99 and Blake Snell is their #6.

That doesn’t even take into account Lamet, Weathers, Morejon and Baez vs. Martin/Lambert/VV.  Counter that with Cease at 152,Kopech 140, Cueto 117 with a 4.17 FIP.  Giolito 75 and Lynn 64 are split exactly evenly by Blake Snell at 69.

Final Summary:

The only way you have any argument is that Moncada is a 4-5 fWAR guy again, Jimenez healthy/productive, Grandal not broken and one of Lynn/Giolito pitching like an All-Star, no regression from Cueto and Hendriks back at 100%.

The Padres merely need Tatis to be a 775-825 ops guy against the White Sox needing all seven things to go right from here on out.

And then the White Sox simply can’t afford a major pitching injury or they're done.

I know you have a deep abiding love for the Padres and are just on Soxtalk to troll....but come on.   I'm not going "out of my way" to ignore the Padres players in their prime or past prime.  I also didn't mention Abreu, Lynn, Hendricks or Tim Anderson who are four of the White Sox best players.  My point was that the Sox core are young guys and the Padres core team is built for this year.  Yes the 35 year old Darvis is having a great first half.  And Musgrove has had a great April, May as he usually does.   But if you were drafting the pitchers from today moving forward you would take Cease, Kopech, Gio then Musgrove, Lynn or Darvish.  And why would I compare anyone to the White Sox emergency starters?   They are not consequential to the team.  The Padres two top spot starters are Clevinger and Snell who they paid a lot for and gotten very little out of.  

The entire future of the Padres is sitting on Tatis shoulders and he has been hurt as much as Eloy and if he can't stick at SS his value drops a lot as a LF.  That was my only comparison between Tatis and Eloy...two superstar hitters that have been hurt a lot.  if I were comparing future value I would say Robert vs Tatis is a better comparison and at this point I'm not sure I would make that trade.  

Your final bit is funny...the only way for the Sox to have a chance this year is if 7 things go right...Even though injuries are healing and regression to the mean all seem to favor Sox hitters...while the Padres will certainly continue on their current pace...even though they did the same thing last year they finished the season going 20 games under .500 for the last two months of the year?     

[HOFHurt35]

52 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

No, but there's accountability.  I'm not sure Ricky would have been any better at managing the laziness and lack of preparedness we've seen from all three of these guys, but TLR is useless in that regard.  This team lacks someone holding the players accountable.  A real manager nips in the bud the laziness and half-assed running.  A real manager benches Leury and Sheets when they're not performing.  A real manager holds the players accountable.

Off the top my head, LaRussa has managed great players like Pujols, McGwire, Canseco, Henderson, Molina, Edmonds, Carpenter, Baines, Fisk, Rolen  and now with this squad Abreu and Anderson.  

Maybe the accountability should come from the players themselves.   Eloy, Moncada, Robert, Grandal should all maybe look in the mirror and realize they are the problem.  

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

41 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Semien is quietly recovering from his terrible start.

Nobody thought Pollock had the arm for RF.  That’s where Hahn planned to play him before the Jimenez injury.

 

No bad contracts…well, Keuchel, Grandal right now, Leury, Harrison, nobody knows about Jimenez and Moncada, Kelly is a bad contract, Hendriks if he has to get TJ is one of the worst contracts in baseball, Bummer depending on his return to form, Lynn the jury is still out on whether he can ever get back to 2021 first half, Giolito doesn’t have a ton of value right now.  Then there are 6-8 negligible value guys.

Anderson/Robert/Cueto/Cease/Vaughn/Graveman/Kopech are your only good contracts.  You can be optimistic and add Burger.

OK I guess we need to define "bad" contracts.  Something like 5% or more of the total payroll for multiple years in the future?   Hosmer, Snell, Manea, Pomeranz, Myers for the Padres?   The Sox may have some misspent money but nothing like Will Myers 6 years at $15 mill a year or Hosmer 8 years at $18 mill per year.  Keuchel salary is off the books after this year and we got a Cy Young type season out of him in one of the years.  Lynn and Grandal have some risk going forward but they are both coming off great seasons and have been hurt this year and we are only truly committed to them for one more year.    You can b**** about a lot of things but Sox managing their payroll has been sensible.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

51 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

• They have one winning full season under Hahn ever the first eight seasons.
• Hahn spent the 7th highest payroll, nearly $200M, and by far the largest in team history. Sadly, it's been spent on old decrepit players as is Hahn's want in life.
• Pollock is an unforced error the Sox are stuck with for two years, because Hahn's fragile ego had to double down to attempt to salvage his "best idea" at the trade deadline, and overworked overpriced reliever.
• Laughing at the focus on Leury the "bad contract" when Hahn is paying nearly $20M each for:

1. Lynn mukbanging himself into missing the first half the year,
2. Yasmani "120 Games" Grandal with a .531 OPS, terrible at catching beyond framing, not returning anytime soon.
3. Paying Dallas Keuchel $18M to pitch for Arizona.
4. Joe Kelly who has been worthless the dozen games he was actually healthy enough to pitch.
5. Stuck paying Pollock $25M when he should have paid the $1M buyout to Kimbrel and spent it on the endless holes Hahn has harvested at 2B and RF.

* You can't do that...they have played near .600 baseball in 20 and 21 and made the play offs the last two years.  You can't throw out 2020 or the poor Dodgers would be the greatest team over the last 10 years without a WS.  

* Its hilarious how the narrative went "Sox will never spend money"...which I debunked on Soxtalk a dozen times...to "well they will spend money but stupidly".   It does suck that 4 of their 6 highest paid players have been injured for a big chunk of the season...but is that stupid?  

* Pollock is not a big problem.  He is a professional player.  

* Leury is a bad contract because it was $5 mill a year for three years which you could have gotten pretty much the same from Mendick for nothing.  Still it is nice that the organization is loyal to guys that have put in time.   Just sad that because of injuries I have to see stupid Leury in every game.  

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

OK I guess we need to define "bad" contracts.  Something like 5% or more of the total payroll for multiple years in the future?   Hosmer, Snell, Manea, Pomeranz, Myers for the Padres?   The Sox may have some misspent money but nothing like Will Myers 6 years at $15 mill a year or Hosmer 8 years at $18 mill per year.  Keuchel salary is off the books after this year and we got a Cy Young type season out of him in one of the years.  Lynn and Grandal have some risk going forward but they are both coming off great seasons and have been hurt this year and we are only truly committed to them for one more year.    You can b**** about a lot of things but Sox managing their payroll has been sensible.  

Did you just include Sean Manaea in the list of Padres long term contracts? Who is signed to a 1 year $9 million deal? Or Pomeranz who has $15 million remaining through this and next year combined - basically Kelly money except he’s not terrible?

[michelangelosmonkey]

55 minutes ago, Snopek said:

What is your definition of competitive?

.600 baseball and back to back playoff appearances in the last two years????   Baseball is a marathon and to think there is no hope is stupid.  Last year on June 29th the Braves were 4 games under .500.   

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

  

* Its hilarious how the narrative went "Sox will never spend money"...which I debunked on Soxtalk a dozen times...to "well they will spend money but stupidly".   It does suck that 4 of their 6 highest paid players have been injured for a big chunk of the season...but is that stupid?  

The White Sox are 28th in baseball in largest contracts in team history ahead of only Oakland and Pittsburgh. Until that changes, arguments that they're not cheap are laughable. 

In terms of guaranteed money(what counts) the largest FA is Grandal at $73M and the largest extension is Moncada at $70M. 

[caulfield12]

21 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I know you have a deep abiding love for the Padres and are just on Soxtalk to troll....but come on.   I'm not going "out of my way" to ignore the Padres players in their prime or past prime.  I also didn't mention Abreu, Lynn, Hendricks or Tim Anderson who are four of the White Sox best players.  My point was that the Sox core are young guys and the Padres core team is built for this year.  Yes the 35 year old Darvis is having a great first half.  And Musgrove has had a great April, May as he usually does.   But if you were drafting the pitchers from today moving forward you would take Cease, Kopech, Gio then Musgrove, Lynn or Darvish.  And why would I compare anyone to the White Sox emergency starters?   They are not consequential to the team.  The Padres two top spot starters are Clevinger and Snell who they paid a lot for and gotten very little out of.  

The entire future of the Padres is sitting on Tatis shoulders and he has been hurt as much as Eloy and if he can't stick at SS his value drops a lot as a LF.  That was my only comparison between Tatis and Eloy...two superstar hitters that have been hurt a lot.  if I were comparing future value I would say Robert vs Tatis is a better comparison and at this point I'm not sure I would make that trade.  

Your final bit is funny...the only way for the Sox to have a chance this year is if 7 things go right...Even though injuries are healing and regression to the mean all seem to favor Sox hitters...while the Padres will certainly continue on their current pace...even though they did the same thing last year they finished the season going 20 games under .500 for the last two months of the year?     

I can do the exact same exercise for the Twins and Guardians if you prefer, since I have watched both those teams this year more than the Padres without Tatis.

The Padres are simply the White Sox in an alternative reality with KW replacing Preller with his riverboat gambling GM style.

Whether it’s Machado, Tatis, Manaea, Mazara…the irony is that the White Sox would be well ahead of the Guardians if you simply reversed the Clevinger trade.  Just one trade.

 

I have been right about the Twins all year long, and right about the Guardians rising to challenge them in June with an easy schedule.

What I completely misjudged was the Guardians winning five games in their final at-bat in the span of two weeks worth of head to head.  Cleveland just has this incredible knack of fighting back, and it’s something you either have or you don’t in your team DNA.  So I honestly would still favor the Twins based on talent, with the caveat that Minny’s pen and psyche are shook.

Urshela >> Burger and Moncada

Correa =< Anderson (TA7 better so far this season, but not necessarily the better player in the clutch or on defense)

Polanco >> Harrison/Mendick/Leury

Arraez >> Abreu

Buxton >> Robert

Kepler >> Pollock

Other OF’s << Vaughn (obviously Vaughn shouldn’t be in the OF)

Jeffers >> Sox catchers

Sanchez (DH) >> Sox DH’s

I would call that 7-2 Twins, depending on the Correa/Anderson argument.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2022.shtml

Cease=Gray

Ryan << Kopech

Smeltzer = Cueto

Archer >> Giolito

Ober/Bundy/Winder/Paddack >> Lynn, Keuchel, VV, Martin, Lambert

[michelangelosmonkey]

30 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

6. Completely botched his evaluation of Rodon…who has risen from a $3 million make good deal to the front tier of the 2022-23 FA class along with Musgrove and deGrom.  Worst-case scenario, we have the comp pick and more draft money to spend.  Best case, one of the best, deepest, most balanced starting rotations in baseball.

I hated the Rodon situation too.  He would have been my #1 priority in the off season. Still it was a "heads you lose tails he wins" contract.  If his arm fell off you wasted $18 mill and if he was great...he was gone.  Anyway Keuchel's $18 mill drops off next year, resign Abreu for $10 mill.  Maybe we go sign Rodon next year 5 years $125 million.   

[southsider2k5]

9 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The White Sox are 28th in baseball in largest contracts in team history ahead of only Oakland and Pittsburgh. Until that changes, arguments that they're not cheap are laughable. 

In terms of guaranteed money(what counts) the largest FA is Grandal at $73M and the largest extension is Moncada at $70M. 

I get this is still a thing, but if the franchise is spending money at large, they aren't cheap.

[michelangelosmonkey]

33 minutes ago, bmags said:

You don't get credit for winning the equivelant of 90 games in a sixty game season, especially when they were gassed at the end (fired their manager because of it!) and got bounced in the first round to a team they should have beat.

It may be impressive to say the sox have made playoffs two years in a row, but 2 playoff years in a 9 year span isn't even impressive to Rockies fans.

He has not had a restrictive payroll, the Guardians have a restrictive payroll. They have made the playoffs 5 times in that span and never finished lower than 3rd.

The Twins have a restrictive payroll, they have also made the playoffs more than Hahn and look likely/possible to make playoffs this year (on pace for 88 wins).

The white sox purposely traded away all assets, lost purposely for 3 years straight and were rewarded with two playoff births. They have a maxed out payroll now. They have the 30th ranked farm. Their core players are underperforming.

Yeah I think Hahn is perfect for this, definitely showed to be shrewder than maybe 1 other GM in baseball.

Honestly man...this is creating a hate cloud.   Hahn tried for three years to win with the Sale/Quintana/Abreu core and it wasn't enough so he blew it up beautifully.  We had to go through the rebuild which again seems like it was great.  All the whining on here that the Sox never ever have gone to the playoffs two years in a row and then when we do..."big f'ing deal"????   As for the 30th ranked farm team bs...I argued about that in the off season and was shouted down.   There are some REALLY good players on this 30th ranked farm system they are just really young.  Colas, Montgomery, Vera, Sosa, Kath, Ramos...its easy to say "sox suck look at their farm ranking" without even bothering to look at the potentials.  They could have 2 or 3 in top hundred by end of the year.   

[michelangelosmonkey]

38 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

That 2000 playoff appearance was built on the backs of beating the heck out of the Tigers and Royals with the unbalanced schedule.

Even then, they collapsed under pressure over the last couple of weeks and might have faded completely with another 10-15 games on the schedule against better competition from the AL East and West or simply more games against the Twins and Indians.

So it doesn't count?   My god we are a self loathing fanbase.  

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Did you just include Sean Manaea in the list of Padres long term contracts? Who is signed to a 1 year $9 million deal? Or Pomeranz who has $15 million remaining through this and next year combined - basically Kelly money except he’s not terrible?

Clevinger, Manaea, Myers, Rogers are all free agents at the end of this year.  Myers has a $1 million buyout.

Hosmer will have his salary cut from $21 million to $13 million per year the next three seasons and there’s at least a 50/50 likelihood he takes the option to opt out.  That could go either way.  So $39 million/3 years, possibly.  The way he started the furst six weeks, leaving seemed obvious.  They have two more arbitration years on Voit as insurance one way or the other, as well as Profar.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Honestly man...this is creating a hate cloud.   Hahn tried for three years to win with the Sale/Quintana/Abreu core and it wasn't enough so he blew it up beautifully.  We had to go through the rebuild which again seems like it was great.  All the whining on here that the Sox never ever have gone to the playoffs two years in a row and then when we do..."big f'ing deal"????   As for the 30th ranked farm team bs...I argued about that in the off season and was shouted down.   There are some REALLY good players on this 30th ranked farm system they are just really young.  Colas, Montgomery, Vera, Sosa, Kath, Ramos...its easy to say "sox suck look at their farm ranking" without even bothering to look at the potentials.  They could have 2 or 3 in top hundred by end of the year.   

Ah, sorry. Extra credit to Hahn for trying.

The sox farm is very bad. It's bad because there is a complete dearth of pitching depth and depth in general. It is nice they have players you named, but other teams also have players. And you rank 30th by comparing the teams to other teams, not just being impressed that they have players. The sox eventually need to beat other top teams, not just previous versions of themselves.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

So it doesn't count?   My god we are a self loathing fanbase.  

It counts in the same way every divisional winner or WC has counted from the AL Central since 2017.

Wiped out in the first round of the playoffs.

We were promised a lot more than early playoff exits when they started this whole rebuild.  Were we not?

Most fans are not so easily satisfied after a decade of terrible baseball and the third longest playoff drought in the game.

Then to have LaRussa foisted on us, it makes it that much worse.  We are a weekly laughingstock.

Edited July 1, 2022 by caulfield12

[hogan873]

31 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Off the top my head, LaRussa has managed great players like Pujols, McGwire, Canseco, Henderson, Molina, Edmonds, Carpenter, Baines, Fisk, Rolen  and now with this squad Abreu and Anderson.  

Maybe the accountability should come from the players themselves.   Eloy, Moncada, Robert, Grandal should all maybe look in the mirror and realize they are the problem.  

 

Agree 100%.  I do think, however, today's ball player is different.  Not all, but some need that kick in the ass.  They need someone to point out that they suck.  I am not excusing the players at all.  I just think a more heavy-handed approach wouldn't hurt.

[southsider2k5]

37 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Off the top my head, LaRussa has managed great players like Pujols, McGwire, Canseco, Henderson, Molina, Edmonds, Carpenter, Baines, Fisk, Rolen  and now with this squad Abreu and Anderson.  

Maybe the accountability should come from the players themselves.   Eloy, Moncada, Robert, Grandal should all maybe look in the mirror and realize they are the problem.  

 

Cool, then we don't need him anyway.

[michelangelosmonkey]

14 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I can do the exact same exercise for the Twins and Guardians if you prefer, since I have watched both those teams this year more than the Padres without Tatis.

The Padres are simply the White Sox in an alternative reality with KW replacing Preller with his riverboat gambling GM style.

Whether it’s Machado, Tatis, Manaea, Mazara…the irony is that the White Sox would be well ahead of the Guardians if you simply reversed the Clevinger trade.  Just one trade.

 

I have been right about the Twins all year long, and right about the Guardians rising to challenge them in June with an easy schedule.

What I completely misjudged was the Guardians winning five games in their final at-bat in the span of two weeks worth of head to head.  Cleveland just has this incredible knack of fighting back, and it’s something you either have or you don’t in your team DNA.  So I honestly would still favor the Twins based on talent, with the caveat that Minny’s pen and psyche are shook.

Urshela >> Burger and Moncada

Correa =< Anderson (TA7 better so far this season, but not necessarily the better player in the clutch or on defense)

Polanco >> Harrison/Mendick/Leury

Arraez >> Abreu

Buxton >> Robert

Kepler >> Pollock

Other OF’s << Vaughn (obviously Vaughn shouldn’t be in the OF)

Jeffers >> Sox catchers

Sanchez (DH) >> Sox DH’s

I would call that 7-2 Twins, depending on the Correa/Anderson argument.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2022.shtml

Cease=Gray

Ryan << Kopech

Smeltzer = Cueto

Archer >> Giolito

Ober/Bundy/Winder/Paddack >> Lynn, Keuchel, VV, Martin, Lambert

OK I surrender.   Ober is better than Lance Lynn.  You would trade Dylan Cease for Sonny Gray straight up.   We'd have to throw in picks to get Archer, the 33 year old,  career 5 ERA starter, for Gio because of 5 bad starts after being one of the best pitchers in baseball the previous three years?  You'd trade the 24 year old Robert for the 28 year old Buxton but have to throw in some extra.  Jeffers and his .600 OPS is better than Grandal and his career .800 OPS?  How much would we have to include with the 27 year old 12 career WAR Moncada to get the 30 year old 6 career WAR Urshella.  I appreciate the deep analysis.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

12 minutes ago, bmags said:

Ah, sorry. Extra credit to Hahn for trying.

The sox farm is very bad. It's bad because there is a complete dearth of pitching depth and depth in general. It is nice they have players you named, but other teams also have players. And you rank 30th by comparing the teams to other teams, not just being impressed that they have players. The sox eventually need to beat other top teams, not just previous versions of themselves.

Who ranks them?  My god you act as if these ranking agencies have some sort of magical predictive power.   I remember that #1 ranked White Sox farm system in 2000.   Hats off to all the smart guys.   I really can't recall the guys having Semien and his 30 WAR by 30 being considered a can't miss prospect.  2014 he was listed behind Erik Johnson and Matt Davidson.  Geniuses.  Sox have a whole lot of exciting players under 27 and then another wave at 21 and younger...which seems sensible...to all except the "look at their rankings" crowd.   As always...It takes me a few hours of writing on Soxtalk to remember why I never want to comment.   

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

OK I surrender.   Ober is better than Lance Lynn.  You would trade Dylan Cease for Sonny Gray straight up.   We'd have to throw in picks to get Archer, the 33 year old,  career 5 ERA starter, for Gio because of 5 bad starts after being one of the best pitchers in baseball the previous three years?  You'd trade the 24 year old Robert for the 28 year old Buxton but have to throw in some extra.  Jeffers and his .600 OPS is better than Grandal and his career .800 OPS?  How much would we have to include with the 27 year old 12 career WAR Moncada to get the 30 year old 6 career WAR Urshella.  I appreciate the deep analysis.  

Nobody cares about the past.

It would be nicer if we didn’t have to live in the present.

Would the Twins take Moncada for Urshela in trade?  Probably they could fix him, but they just dumped Donaldson to get cheaper.

Where did I write anything about Cease’s trade value?  Statistically, by many measures, Gray has been just as good or better.

Ober is better in the sense his stats and salary are better.

If we went by past numbers, why would we even have a reason to play a new season each year?

Why would the Twins want Grandal more this year, performance or salary-wise?

 

As for Giolito, you can decide for yourself…he has been declining in performance from 2019 through the present.  We have a full thread dedicated to all the reasons why.  

If the White Sox are so much better than the Twins…more talented…which we’ve been hearing as a consistent argument since about 2001 or so, they have only backed up that boast in 2005, 2008 and 2021.  And now here we are yet again, in complete denial.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Who ranks them?  My god you act as if these ranking agencies have some sort of magical predictive power.   I remember that #1 ranked White Sox farm system in 2000.   Hats off to all the smart guys.   I really can't recall the guys having Semien and his 30 WAR by 30 being considered a can't miss prospect.  2014 he was listed behind Erik Johnson and Matt Davidson.  Geniuses.  Sox have a whole lot of exciting players under 27 and then another wave at 21 and younger...which seems sensible...to all except the "look at their rankings" crowd.   As always...It takes me a few hours of writing on Soxtalk to remember why I never want to comment.   

So we should throw out all the ratings because Mark Buehrle turned out to be the best pitcher of that group?

Or Josh Fogg and Kip Wells had higher career fWARs instead of the likes of Rauch, Biddle, Barcelo, Stumm, Honel, Wright, Ginter?

 

By your argument, Iowa FB would always be #1 for taking the 2-3 star or walk ons and making them into NFL players.

Of course, you would also find a massive correlation between the Top 15 rated recruiting classes and the final results any given season…

Edited July 1, 2022 by caulfield12

[Jack Parkman]

49 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I get this is still a thing, but if the franchise is spending money at large, they aren't cheap.

They're too wimpy to spend money wisely. 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

I can do the exact same exercise for the Twins and Guardians if you prefer, since I have watched both those teams this year more than the Padres without Tatis.

The Padres are simply the White Sox in an alternative reality with KW replacing Preller with his riverboat gambling GM style.

Whether it’s Machado, Tatis, Manaea, Mazara…the irony is that the White Sox would be well ahead of the Guardians if you simply reversed the Clevinger trade.  Just one trade.

 

I have been right about the Twins all year long, and right about the Guardians rising to challenge them in June with an easy schedule.

What I completely misjudged was the Guardians winning five games in their final at-bat in the span of two weeks worth of head to head.  Cleveland just has this incredible knack of fighting back, and it’s something you either have or you don’t in your team DNA.  So I honestly would still favor the Twins based on talent, with the caveat that Minny’s pen and psyche are shook.

Urshela >> Burger and Moncada

Correa =< Anderson (TA7 better so far this season, but not necessarily the better player in the clutch or on defense)

Polanco >> Harrison/Mendick/Leury

Arraez >> Abreu

Buxton >> Robert

Kepler >> Pollock

Other OF’s << Vaughn (obviously Vaughn shouldn’t be in the OF)

Jeffers >> Sox catchers

Sanchez (DH) >> Sox DH’s

I would call that 7-2 Twins, depending on the Correa/Anderson argument.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2022.shtml

Cease=Gray

Ryan << Kopech

Smeltzer = Cueto

Archer >> Giolito

Ober/Bundy/Winder/Paddack >> Lynn, Keuchel, VV, Martin, Lambert

I watch a ton of twins baseball. All my friends are twins fans. I grew up in MN. I know folks in their FO. I know more about the Twins than most Twins fans. This is an outrageous list from ever the most optimistic Twins fan. 

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They're too wimpy to spend money wisely. 

That doesn't even make sense.