Rick Hahn - Mastermind of Failure

[GreenSox]

58 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

My crazy prediction this winter was that Kenny does indeed finally step down, and Tony steps into his role. 

Tony in the FO would be much worse than low bars of Tony in the dugout or Hahn in the FO.  

[Snopek]

26 minutes ago, Highland said:

Let's hope you are right. But what ex-Sox player will be named as manager?

I’ve been saying it’ll be Paul Konerko’s statue for awhile now.

I can already hear the quotes from TLR: “Great leader for this team. Very stoic and composed. He’s like a statue in that dugout.”

[JoeC]

37 minutes ago, Highland said:

Let's hope you are right. But what ex-Sox player will be named as manager?

I'm going outside the box and going with Darin Erstad.

[joemg311]

1 hour ago, Snopek said:

Hahn seems like the Renteria of GMs. Fine with handling the rebuilding teams, but absolutely not who you want handling the contending teams.

Looking forward to Jerry brining in the TLR equivalent to replace Hahn in the offseason. 

Maybe TLR just slides over to GM when he can no longer physically be the manager?

[bmags]

if the twins org was in charge of the white sox how many home runs do we think this group would have?

[ChiSox59]

11 minutes ago, JoeC said:

I'm going outside the box and going with Darin Erstad.

Mark Kotsay?  At least he's spent most of his career away from the Sox but has some ties.  I would imagine he'd prefer to manage the Sox than the A's....maybe...

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

The most underperoforming team in baseball this year and they've made zero changes. 

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The most underperoforming team in baseball this year and they've made zero changes. 

Gotta imagine a loss today would result in at least a Menechino firing.  But I've said that before.  

[chitownsportsfan]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

if the twins org was in charge of the white sox how many home runs do we think this group would have?

No clue but I was watching Julio Rodriguez play last night and he plays free and loose and doesn't worry about getting injured -- just like Robert should play. It really annoys me that the Sox have, seemingly as an entire org, planted the "don't get hurt out there" seed in the back of every guys' head. And it sure isn't helping prevent injuries, all it's doing is making for a lot of tight performances.

The entire coaching and performance staff outside Katz should be broomed. In fact, I would consider making Katz the interim manager. He's the only coach that is an outsider that has success outside Chicago and he's done well with the staff no doubt. The rest of the coaches, from the sports shrinks to the training staff to the bench coaches and base coaches to TLR himself should be broomed.

Edited July 6, 2022 by chitownsportsfan

[bmags]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

No clue but I was watching Julio Rodriguez play last night and he plays free and loose and doesn't worry about getting injured -- just like Robert should play. It really annoys me that the Sox have, seemingly as an entire org, planted the "don't get hurt out there" seed in the back of every guys' head. And it sure isn't helping prevent injuries, all it's doing is making for a lot of tight performances.

The entire coaching and performance staff outside Katz should be broomed. In fact, I would consider making Katz the interim manager. He's the only coach that is an outsider that has success outside Chicago and he's done well with the staff no doubt. The rest of the coaches, from the sports shrinks to the training staff to the bench coaches and base coaches to TLR himself should be broomed.

I'm not sure there is an org in baseball that is as cocky that they are doing things the right way and how it should be done than the white sox. 

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

I'm not sure there is an org in baseball that is as cocky that they are doing things the right way and how it should be done than the white sox. 

They are the Dallas Cowboys with the Detroit Lions' resume. Helluva combo.

[mmmmmbeeer]

I don't think we can really evaluate Hahn's performance without knowing how much pull he/TLR actually have.  

Do I think Rick wanted to resign Leury?  No.

Do I think Rick wanted to spend his budget on the bullpen?  No.

Do I think Rick wants Sosa in the minors right now so we can watch Leury?  No.

There are just too many moves being made this season that clearly show that there's a COMPLETE disconnect between the FO and TLR, Sosa's short stint being example 1A.  Tony loves a bullpen, thus the bullpen pieces.  Tony loves Leury, thus the Leury signing.  Tony pus handedness above all else, thus Gavin, Leury, and Reese taking starts away from guys like Pollock, Vaughn, and Harrison.

All that said, if Hahn has truly been relegated to nothing more than a puppet GM, he should quit.  The fact he remains implies he either has a direct hand in this decisions or he thinks he'll outlast TLR's reign.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

No clue but I was watching Julio Rodriguez play last night and he plays free and loose and doesn't worry about getting injured -- just like Robert should play. It really annoys me that the Sox have, seemingly as an entire org, planted the "don't get hurt out there" seed in the back of every guys' head. And it sure isn't helping prevent injuries, all it's doing is making for a lot of tight performances.

The entire coaching and performance staff outside Katz should be broomed. In fact, I would consider making Katz the interim manager. He's the only coach that is an outsider that has success outside Chicago and he's done well with the staff no doubt. The rest of the coaches, from the sports shrinks to the training staff to the bench coaches and base coaches to TLR himself should be broomed.

I've become convinced that this team doesn't prepare, doesn't scheme for situational baseball, doesn't practice, and there is simply no accountability. This is the symptom of a TLR, even more as he's this old, led ballclub. They're a rutter less ship with very little direction or guidance. 

I went back and watched the Moncada/Engel debacle, and got a brief glimpse on one of the replays of Boston - 10000% silent. Moncada is running to 2nd base on a ball being caught, and Boston isn't even yelling back. 

The onus at the end of the day will always be on the players, but the leadership of this team is non-existent, and the narrative has never ever been one of urgency. If I have to hear them talk about how there's a lot of season left... these guys like playing together.... it's just a rough patch... the injuries hurt... yada yada, I'm going to explode. That narrative comes from the top down. La Russa coaches with no urgency, and the players play with none. They're all going through the motions resting on the laurels of their "talent" which has been stated to them over and over again.

The fact that this team has made absolutely no changes anywhere for a team that plays flat-out terrible baseball, given how high their expectations are, is a huge slap in the face to not just the fans but ALSO the players.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

They are the Dallas Cowboys with the Detroit Lions' resume. Helluva combo.

Chicago Bears resume lol

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, mmmmmbeeer said:

I don't think we can really evaluate Hahn's performance without knowing how much pull he/TLR actually have.  

Do I think Rick wanted to resign Leury?  No.

Do I think Rick wanted to spend his budget on the bullpen?  No.

Do I think Rick wants Sosa in the minors right now so we can watch Leury?  No.

There are just too many moves being made this season that clearly show that there's a COMPLETE disconnect between the FO and TLR, Sosa's short stint being example 1A.  Tony loves a bullpen, thus the bullpen pieces.  Tony loves Leury, thus the Leury signing.  Tony pus handedness above all else, thus Gavin, Leury, and Reese taking starts away from guys like Pollock, Vaughn, and Harrison.

All that said, if Hahn has truly been relegated to nothing more than a puppet GM, he should quit.  The fact he remains implies he either has a direct hand in this decisions or he thinks he'll outlast TLR's reign.

oh puleeze dude. What part of Hahn's history says he didn't want to waste big money on the bullpen? What part of Hahn's history as a GM signing free agents tells you that he was held hostage by La Russa?

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

Extremely surprising to know that the guy who thinks a constant rebuild every two years is that ideal would say a new front office is scary af and follow that by saying everything would be the same or a little worse 

I don't want a rebuild every two years. That's a gross mischaracterization. 

It's been obvious since last season that this one was fucked. 

Because I think that players should not be allowed to walk for nothing that means I want a constant rebuild? 

I'd rather players get paid, but if ownership puts handcuffs on the FO with regard to FA contracts, it makes windows very short.

Most of the pessimism comes from not trusting ownership to hire the right person. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[chitownsportsfan]

Just now, mmmmmbeeer said:

I don't think we can really evaluate Hahn's performance without knowing how much pull he/TLR actually have.  

Do I think Rick wanted to resign Leury?  No.

Do I think Rick wanted to spend his budget on the bullpen?  No.

Do I think Rick wants Sosa in the minors right now so we can watch Leury?  No.

There are just too many moves being made this season that clearly show that there's a COMPLETE disconnect between the FO and TLR, Sosa's short stint being example 1A.  Tony loves a bullpen, thus the bullpen pieces.  Tony loves Leury, thus the Leury signing.  Tony pus handedness above all else, thus Gavin, Leury, and Reese taking starts away from guys like Pollock, Vaughn, and Harrison.

All that said, if Hahn has truly been relegated to nothing more than a puppet GM, he should quit.  The fact he remains implies he either has a direct hand in this decisions or he thinks he'll outlast TLR's reign.

he's the GM. If he doesn't like not having full power he can resign today. this line of "oh it's not hahn it's _____" is a dead end. And hahn is the guy that decided it was better to sign a million bullpen arms then improve 2B and RF enough for leads to hold up. 

hahn can fuck off. he did a good job with the rebuild, he's utterly failed to build on that foundation and now the entire building is on the verge of collapse.

[southsider2k5]

13 minutes ago, bmags said:

if the twins org was in charge of the white sox how many home runs do we think this group would have?

The one thing I keep thinking is that the Twins have just as bad of an injury history as the Sox do, but I do think their hitting approach would be different, so I would guess more, but still as many games missed due to injury.

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I've become convinced that this team doesn't prepare, doesn't scheme for situational baseball, doesn't practice, and there is simply no accountability. This is the symptom of a TLR, even more as he's this old, led ballclub. They're a rutter less ship with very little direction or guidance. 

I went back and watched the Moncada/Engel debacle, and got a brief glimpse on one of the replays of Boston - 10000% silent. Moncada is running to 2nd base on a ball being caught, and Boston isn't even yelling back. 

The onus at the end of the day will always be on the players, but the leadership of this team is non-existent, and the narrative has never ever been one of urgency. If I have to hear them talk about how there's a lot of season left... these guys like playing together.... it's just a rough patch... the injuries hurt... yada yada, I'm going to explode. That narrative comes from the top down. La Russa coaches with no urgency, and the players play with none. They're all going through the motions resting on the laurels of their "talent" which has been stated to them over and over again.

The fact that this team has made absolutely no changes anywhere for a team that plays flat-out terrible baseball, given how high their expectations are, is a huge slap in the face to not just the fans but ALSO the players.

On bad baseball teams there's a lack of accountability. I'm seeing the same pattern with TLR as we did with Ventura. I won't put Rickie in that pile, although lord knows he had his own issues running a club.

[bmags]

Before TLR, Hahn's major league acquisitions were just as bad. And same tendencies.

My god the guy traded away a young, offensive home grown catcher while in a rebuild for a market-priced closer. He is obssessed with bullpen. 

[DashFan]

2 hours ago, Snopek said:

Hahn seems like the Renteria of GMs. Fine with handling the rebuilding teams, but absolutely not who you want handling the contending teams.

Looking forward to Jerry brining in the TLR equivalent to replace Hahn in the offseason. 

Hawk? At least we'd get to see him fire Tony again.

[Harry Chappas]

If the White Sox were run like a modern day organization it would be Jirschele who brings with him the instilled philosophies of the organization learned during his time with the organization and metric planning.

I am not certain there is an organizational philosophy or metric decision making in play and Hahn and him working in tandem to build is also probably not happening.

I thought Larussa was a placeholder for this move and was ok with it.  I felt LaRussa would be tolerable and potentially a successful bridge piece to move to point B......instead we moved from point A to point A -1.

The inability of Hahn  whether he wanted LaRussa or not to build a organization is what I see as failing.  

Maybe I should be looking more at Williams and Williams belief that prospects are not long term plans as to the reason why I view this organization as inept and baseball stupid compared to those organizations that are not consistently mired in mediocrity. 

Kenny Williams is Gar/Pax and Ted Phillips all rolled into one.  The cubs liked Crane Kenny, so they moved him some place where he belongs.  

Full transparency, I was always in the camp that Dale Tallon built the Blackhawks, Stan was just allowed to sign Hossa to get them over the top and Theo while brilliant had a flawed approach to building an organization....although it is much better than the the White Sox plan which is no plan.  As Hawk always said, a bad plan is better than no plan at all.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dominikk85]

Hahn did some things quite well and others not so much. 

1. Positive :

-signing sale, quintana and eaton to cheap extensions that made them very valuable in trades

-getting great trade value in the big trades

-not ruining those acquired top prospects 

-the cuba connection, getting robert and jose was huge

2. Negative

-the draft. Sox had a lot of top20 picks in the last years and really only vaughn is looking like an above average player. 

Burger looks like a decent role player but other than that not much came out from the draft

-international non cuba signings: sox do not have signed and developed any notable non cuba latin players in the last decade

-organisational depth:

Sox did well developing those top guys but had not many lower ranked prospects making a big jump in performance and many semi highly ranked prospects outside of those very top guys took a step back. It would have been nice for example to have a home grown utility infielder instead of just going leury and mendick for years or to develope some more backend starters. 

-roster construction: with vaughn, abreu, sheets and burger this team has simply too many corner types and that is eating into their defense. 

Not quite his fault:

-free agent signings had very mixed success and the smaller money signings did go especially bad. 

 

However that can be blamed at least to a large degree to jerry who did not give him more money

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

On bad baseball teams there's a lack of accountability. I'm seeing the same pattern with TLR as we did with Ventura. I won't put Rickie in that pile, although lord knows he had his own issues running a club.

Ironically enough, Ricky did a nice job developing younger players and not allowing them to rest on their talent alone. He had issues - will never forget him having a panic attack in the dugout of a playoff game - but the development of these players has stopped which honestly leads me to believe that the effort to develop them has stopped with La Russa in charge. They now just do what they want and have no guidance on further growth and problem areas. 

This has been the most disappointing and frustrating team of my lifetime and it's not close, and Rick Hahn watches this every night and has decided that nothing is going to be done about it.

[chitownsportsfan]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Before TLR, Hahn's major league acquisitions were just as bad. And same tendencies.

My god the guy traded away a young, offensive home grown catcher while in a rebuild for a market-priced closer. He is obssessed with bullpen. 

hahn is the type of executive that by being "risk averse" actually exposes himself and the club to more risk. there was ALWAYS risk of a big regression from some of the core position players. That's why you GO GET MORE GOOD PLAYERS rather than just hoping and wishing the guys you got are good enough to get you a one run lead, which as we've seen over and over this year, isn't good enough, no matter how many bullpen arms you bring in.