Sooooo.....who are you selling?

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

No one is paying Hendriks's value, not with his screwy contract structure that makes him way more expensive to any team in the tax, and a forearm injury. Graveman however is far more affordable and has not been recently injured. 

Yeah, Hendriks' contract makes him virtually untradeable. If he's still performing at the end of next year, it will be interesting to see how they decide to pay him his $14M. 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[maxjusttyped]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

If Lopez continues being a quality reliever, we 100% know what the contract looks like for him - 2 to 3 years at $20 to $30 million a year. We keep signing relievers for that money.

I think you'd be able to get him for quite a bit less considering he'll be very cheap in arb the next 2 years and he isn't a FA until 2025.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

I definitely think a big market team like the Mets or Dodgers would take Hendriks assuming the medicals check out. He'll be the best reliever on the market by a mile.

But are they giving you a valuable piece back for him? Probably not, not with that contract. He's a guy who has a decent chance of being movable, but his injury and his contract mean you aren't getting a return that makes you substantially better next year.

[Balta1701]

Just now, maxjusttyped said:

I think you'd be able to get him for quite a bit less considering he'll be very cheap in arb the next 2 years and he isn't a FA until 2025.

He's a FA after 2023, not after 2024. He has 1.5 years of control remaining - that's why you should  move him now. 

[maxjusttyped]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

But are they giving you a valuable piece back for him? Probably not, not with that contract. He's a guy who has a decent chance of being movable, but his injury and his contract mean you aren't getting a return that makes you substantially better next year.

It's always possible the Sox were bidding against themselves, but Hendriks is better than Kimbrel and we saw he's been traded twice within the last year. I do think the Dodgers specifically would be very interested in Hendriks, yes. To me the question is more if the Sox are willing to deal him than if other teams would be willing to give up something valuable in return.

[maxjusttyped]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

He's a FA after 2023, not after 2024. He has 1.5 years of control remaining - that's why you should  move him now. 

Fangraphs has Lopez as a super 2 guy & thus has 2 & 1/2 years left. Spotrac and FG have conflicting info on this, fwiw.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

It's always possible the Sox were bidding against themselves, but Hendriks is better than Kimbrel and we saw he's been traded twice within the last year. I do think the Dodgers specifically would be very interested in Hendriks, yes. To me the question is more if the Sox are willing to deal him than if other teams would be willing to give up something valuable in return.

Hendriks however has a much larger financial commitment, and I think Rick Hahn managed to create a contract that has a 30% larger luxury tax hit than its actual number, which will matter to the Dodgers. Throw in a recent injury and you're talking about a really high risk move for them. Robertson or Graveman would be way smarter moves for them. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/white-sox/ct-spt-daryl-boston-white-sox-20180504-story.html

Boston's brother, not son

No I mean Kenny's son. He's assistant director of PD 

[maxjusttyped]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Hendriks however has a much larger financial commitment, and I think Rick Hahn managed to create a contract that has a 30% larger luxury tax hit than its actual number, which will matter to the Dodgers. Throw in a recent injury and you're talking about a really high risk move for them. Robertson or Graveman would be way smarter moves for them. 

I think the reason why the Dodgers traded for Kimbrel over, say, signing Graveman or Robertson in the first place is because they wanted a higher ceiling strikeout monster to be their closer. Hendriks is still in the conversation for being the best reliever in baseball. His contract is right in line with what Raisel Iglesias made last winter. I think the trade market for him will be strong, assuming the medicals check out. He has been dominant since returning both in terms of stuff and results.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

I think the reason why the Dodgers traded for Kimbrel over, say, signing Graveman or Robertson in the first place is because they wanted a higher ceiling strikeout monster to be their closer. Hendriks is still in the conversation for being the best reliever in baseball. His contract is right in line with what Raisel Iglesias made last winter. I think the trade market for him will be strong, assuming the medicals check out. He has been dominant since returning both in terms of stuff and results.

So his money is comparable to the highest paid reliever in baseball, and he has an even larger luxury tax penalty thanks to Hahn's work. 

If the medicals are ok, you can probably move his contract, but who takes on the highest paid reliever in baseball with 2.5 years left on their deal and gives up substantial value of players for them?

If you really need to move the contract, which is possible, I think you might as well wait until the offseason. The tax stuff gets a little less wonky each year, and several months of health might help. 

[maxjusttyped]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So his money is comparable to the highest paid reliever in baseball, and he has an even larger luxury tax penalty thanks to Hahn's work. 

If the medicals are ok, you can probably move his contract, but who takes on the highest paid reliever in baseball with 2.5 years left on their deal and gives up substantial value of players for them?

If you really need to move the contract, which is possible, I think you might as well wait until the offseason. The tax stuff gets a little less wonky each year, and several months of health might help. 

I think you are underestimating the value teams place on premium relievers, particularly at the trade deadline. The percentage of innings Hendriks can throw for a contender will be much higher during playoffs than it is throughout the course of the regular season. 

I understand your argument, it makes rational sense. I would never want to be the team trading for an expensive reliever, I hated  the Kimbrel acquisition when it happened. But I think there will always be a contender willing to trade for top ~10 relievers unless their contract is completely out of line with the rest of the market.

[South Side Hit Men]

 

1 hour ago, CentralChamps21 said:

He traded Sale, Quintana and Eaton for Kopech, Cease, Giolito, Lopez, Dunning, Moncada and Eloy. That's three current starters, a good reliever, and another guy who got traded for one of our starters. It's not Hahn's fault that the coaching staff totally fucked up Moncada and Eloy. Those were fantastic trades.

GMs don't make those foolish deals anymore. Teams (well beyond the Sox) value cost controlled younger players, not veterans at the deadline for top prospects, unless you are talking a Top 20-30 player in baseball, which the White Sox do not have.

Most teams are just looking to dump two months salary at this point.

Sox needed to make good on their draft picks and player development to have a sustained contention window. Instead, they dump their top picks and sign guys on their last legs that Tony remembers.

You need a new front office, period, before any wholesale changes are made to this team. Quite frankly, Hahn should have been canned with Ventura after 2016.

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

I know the value has probably dropped, but I could probably get at least $20 for Tony's HoF plaque, right?

Hell, they could likely get at least $10 at the next White Sox Garage Sale for the LaRUSSA's LOUNGE sign which displaced Loretta's Lounge.

https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/05/26/white-sox-face-backlash-after-changing-late-beer-vendors-lorettas-lounge-to-honor-tony-la-russa/

[joejoesox]

doesn't matter if the same corporate rejects are running the show next year, they'll fuck it up regardless

yes i'm that cynical when it comes to the sox, i have zero faith in this team for the foreseeable future

[Tony]

Just now, joesaiditstrue said:

doesn't matter if the same corporate rejects are running the show next year, they'll fuck it up regardless

yes i'm that cynical when it comes to the sox, i have zero faith in this team for the foreseeable future

At this point, there is no evidence that logically would lead you to any other conclusion.

The collection of Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn and Jerry Reisndorf working together have an abysmal performance record. There isn’t really any other way to look at it 

[joejoesox]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

This is fine. Fire whoever. But firing Rick Hahn doesn't fix anything. So you let Jeremy Haber take over? Kenny is still there so it doesn't matter. Kenny has tentacles everywhere. Darryl Boston on the coaching staff, his dipshit son is 2nd in command of the minor leagues and they rehired Steverson to do some scouting. This entire organization needs an enema. Without the full house cleaning, it doesn't matter. And that's just not happening. 

damn, have you always been this nihilistic about this Sox FO? or is this something you recently came to a conclusion about

[joejoesox]

edit: delete

Edited July 9, 2022 by joesaiditstrue

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

It's always possible the Sox were bidding against themselves, but Hendriks is better than Kimbrel and we saw he's been traded twice within the last year. I do think the Dodgers specifically would be very interested in Hendriks, yes. To me the question is more if the Sox are willing to deal him than if other teams would be willing to give up something valuable in return.

Except Pollock Madrigal and Heuer all have 0 or negative fWAR.

[maxjusttyped]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Except Pollock Madrigal and Heuer all have 0 or negative fWAR.

Fangraphs had Madrigal as the 44th most valuable player in baseball ~12 days before the trade, Heuer was seen as a good reliever with 5 years of team control remaining, & Pollock was just coming off a 3 win season. All of those players had a lot of value at the time they were traded.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2021-trade-value-41-to-50/

[Dick Allen]

So everyone wants the Sox to rebuild again? 

[Dick Allen]

7 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

This is fine. Fire whoever. But firing Rick Hahn doesn't fix anything. So you let Jeremy Haber take over? Kenny is still there so it doesn't matter. Kenny has tentacles everywhere. Darryl Boston on the coaching staff, his dipshit son is 2nd in command of the minor leagues and they rehired Steverson to do some scouting. This entire organization needs an enema. Without the full house cleaning, it doesn't matter. And that's just not happening. 

Kenny's wife retired from TV news last year. I also read where Kenny said something along the lines of his last contract was going to be his last. Who knows,maybe it's for 10 years, but I am holding out hope he retires soon. The problem is , it seems there is very little chance they would replace him with an outsider, so the stench would linger.

 

[HoosierSox]

Sell TLR to the hall of fame. They can have their HOF manager back.

[Timmy U]

27 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

So everyone wants the Sox to rebuild again? 

I don’t think anyone wants them to rebuild, but facts are facts.  They need to be realistic and reload/retool for 2023.  I reiterate from the other thread that I would look at Pollock, Lynn, Cueto, Graveman, Harrison, Engel, and if anyone would take him, Joe Kelly.  Not looking to shop, but would listen on Grandal and Abreu.  Guys like Eloy, Moncada, and Vaughn I am keeping at least until the off-season.  Would promote Colas to AA already and get Davis Martin and Lenny Sosa to the majors.

[WBWSF]

8 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

I  wonder what an extension with Lopez would look like. He didn't sign for much with Washington, arbitration won't pay him a ton because he isn't getting wins or saves, but I think he's already better than all of the expensive relievers aside from Hendriks. It'd take a lot for me to deal him, and I'm not sure what the trade market for him would look like considering the track record of him being good is quite limited.

Lopez has said a number of times that he wants to be a starter in the rotation. I wouldn't be surprised if he wound up back in the White Sox starting rotation next year.

[MiddleCoastBias]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Kenny's wife retired from TV news last year. I also read where Kenny said something along the lines of his last contract was going to be his last. Who knows,maybe it's for 10 years, but I am holding out hope he retires soon. The problem is , it seems there is very little chance they would replace him with an outsider, so the stench would linger.

 

100% this. All of our "fire this guy" hypotheticals are followed by "well, but then they'll just fill that position with someone else similar that they know".

It starts at the top - it's like a drug cartel. Until JR sells, we won't see any substantive changes. Reinsdorf won't bring in some new guy he doesn't know to replace Kenny, Hahn, et al - it will just be another crony.

And that is depressing. Even IF we get a minor win (TLR retires, Menechino fired, etc), it won't really mean anything in the long run. Just more of the same.