tray Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 This was part of the post-game discussion between Garfein, Ozzie and the Pods. All of us who watch the Sox regularly this season have likewise been frustrated by the poor approach by many of our hitters especially in situations that call for some patience at the plate. The Sox are close to last in home runs yet they are swinging for the fences or whiffi on first pitch sliders..They do not seem to work counts or take a pitch or two to extend innings when a pitcher can be placed under pressure. Instead they often bail pitchers out with lazy fly balls or ground into double plays. Tonight, Cleveland hitters were content to simply take the ball up the middle or through vacated infield spots. That strategy plus two walks plated 5 before we got to sit down with a beer to enjoy the game. Ted Williams took the first pitch every time for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkness99 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Yeah i saw this also The white sox offensive approach is horrid and honestly it goes back a long way. Outside of last year we have horrible plate discipline going back a decade. This year we are on of the worst teams in baseball at chasing bad pitches. Its not that we have a few guys that lack plate discipline - its like a team philosophy. Robert makes me want to vomit during many of his at bats - the pitcher throws something on the outside half.. and he takes a little soft swing like he protecting the plate on the 1st pitch. This team's offensive approach is god awful and honestly has been this way for years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 54 minutes ago, tray said: This was part of the post-game discussion between Garfein, Ozzie and the Pods. All of us who watch the Sox regularly this season have likewise been frustrated by the poor approach by many of our hitters especially in situations that call for some patience at the plate. The Sox are close to last in home runs yet they are swinging for the fences or whiffi on first pitch sliders..They do not seem to work counts or take a pitch or two to extend innings when a pitcher can be placed under pressure. Instead they often bail pitchers out with lazy fly balls or ground into double plays. Tonight, Cleveland hitters were content to simply take the ball up the middle or through vacated infield spots. That strategy plus two walks plated 5 before we got to sit down with a beer to enjoy the game. Ted Williams took the first pitch every time for a reason. Far too late to change an entire team's offensive approach mid-season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Far too late to change an entire team's offensive approach mid-season. Not too late though to make a statement and fire Mennichino. Who cares if won’t change anything. Start holding people accountable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 This is not a team full of bad hitters. There are some poor offensive players, but overall it's a team of way underachieving guys who are either not being coached well or are not heeding the advice of the coaches. I think it's the former mixed in with piss-poor attitudes. These are professional baseball players being paid a shit ton of money going out there and not even coming close to giving it their all. There's no accountability, no life, no fun. Down by four runs and getting yourself three outs on six pitches is unacceptable performance. And it won't change until something bigger changes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralChamps21 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 6 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Far too late to change an entire team's offensive approach mid-season. Perhaps, but making the change now gets you a head start on next season. Also gets a different opinion into the organization as the Sox contemplate trades over the next couple weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 6 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Far too late to change an entire team's offensive approach mid-season. Lol yea, “do absolutely nothing now, in July” is the correct course of action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Taking pitches is certainly a new tune coming from Ozzie, compared to when he was manager. This just isn’t anything that the org prioritizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 I feel like I have been screaming about this every season for as long as I can remember. The White Sox never just fight off good pitches they ground out weakly or pop out. A hitter has a 7 or 8 pitch at bat once a game and maybe a 10 pitch at bat once a week. Other teams seem to have this in an inning and game. The at bats by Abreu and Vaughan on Thursday and Friday are the epitome of this approach. The White Sox swing at the first strike they see whether it's hittable or not. I am not sure any of them have the ability to recognize pitches and just going to the plate swinging. The at bat by Anderson in the 7th last night from your leadoff hitter typifies this. This organization has very poor baseball IQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Overall the white Sox are 4th in batting average. However they are 19th in OBP, 23rd in slugging, 21st in OPS. They are 25th in the league in strikeouts (meaning very few strikeouts). With two strikes, the White Sox are 7th MLB in batting average. However they are 20th in OBP, 20th in slugging, 20th in OPS. If those numbers seem identical it’s because they are. The problem with this team is not specific to two strikes, it is the hit the ball on the ground/go the other way approach. That may work for Anderson, but guys like Moncada, Vaughn, Robert, even Leury need to be pulling the ball to use their power. Because of the lack of power and lack of patience, they aren’t generating runs and teams aren’t afraid to pitch to them so their walk totals are low. Whether this approach is deliberately being taught by Menechino or he just can’t fix it, that is the problem - not their 2 strike approach. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 5 minutes ago, GreenSox said: Taking pitches is certainly a new tune coming from Ozzie, compared to when he was manager. This just isn’t anything that the org prioritizes. It’s a direct response to their pathetic display yesterday, not a shift in philosophy for Ozzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Just now, Balta1701 said: Overall the white Sox are 4th in batting average. However they are 19th in OBP, 23rd in slugging, 21st in OPS. They are 25th in the league in strikeouts (meaning very few strikeouts). With two strikes, the White Sox are 7th MLB in batting average. However they are 20th in OBP, 20th in slugging, 20th in OPS. If those numbers seem identical it’s because they are. The problem with this team is not specific to two strikes, it is the hit the ball on the ground/go the other way approach. That may work for Anderson, but guys like Moncada, Vaughn, Robert, even Leury need to be pulling the ball to use their power. Because of the lack of power and lack of patience, they aren’t generating runs and teams aren’t afraid to pitch to them so their walk totals are low. Whether this approach is deliberately being taught by Menechino or he just can’t fix it, that is the problem - not their 2 strike approach. I have no idea the true impact a hitting coach makes at the Major league level, but I am fairly sure there was a stat on Twitter the other day that showed every Menechino coached team had a tremendous amount of ground balls. Lift and pull, how we miss you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: I have no idea the true impact a hitting coach makes at the Major league level, but I am fairly sure there was a stat on Twitter the other day that showed every Menechino coached team had a tremendous amount of ground balls. Lift and pull, how we miss you He totally has to be responsible for some of this mess. Someone is giving these players reports on the pitchers and their tendencies. Someone is giving these hitters a game plan. If it isn’t the hitting coach who else could it be? These guys aren’t all magically coming up with the same strategy game after game after game. These player bought into some bad philosophy that the only thing that matters is putting the ball in play. Menechino is literally on record with his “fuck the home run” comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 55 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: I have no idea the true impact a hitting coach makes at the Major league level, but I am fairly sure there was a stat on Twitter the other day that showed every Menechino coached team had a tremendous amount of ground balls. Lift and pull, how we miss you The ground ball trend over multiple years and multiple teams speaks to some level of negative impact. How quantifiable is certainly up for debate, but it can’t be mere coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 (edited) .240, 741 ops (which actually sounds decent this year), 36 career homers in 1257 at-bats, or about 9 per year, 200 walks, 279 k’s Menechino’s career numbers https://www.silive.com/mets/2019/04/just-sayin-marlins-were-too-premature-in-letting-frank-menechino-walk.html Inability to fix Lewis Brinson an issue for his successor Mike Pagliarulo, ofc Luis Robert was once famously comped with Brinson during his rookie year to the consternation and befuddlement of Sox fans. Edited July 12, 2022 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tray Posted July 12, 2022 Author Share Posted July 12, 2022 (edited) They displayed a spray chart of Cleveland's hit balls in the post-game.The amount of ground balls Cleveland hit up the middle made it apparent that they were executing a game plan and it worked. Compare the Guardians first inning compared to the Sox disastrous 7th inning, (where Pollock and Leury G led off with hits and the Sox went down in 6 pitches) . The Guardians were also running out ground balls against an infield defense that was playing a few steps too deep. Also compare the WSox base running to Cleveland's. . It has been terrible this season in many respects. What happened to the concept of "grinding" out at-bats? Why is Zavala first pitch swinging with 2 on and nobody out in a game where we are down by 4 runs in the 7th? It is never too late to learn from mistakes. Edited July 12, 2022 by tray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said: I have no idea the true impact a hitting coach makes at the Major league level, but I am fairly sure there was a stat on Twitter the other day that showed every Menechino coached team had a tremendous amount of ground balls. Lift and pull, how we miss you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Like….what exactly are you telling everyone to get this result? Wtf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said: Lol yea, “do absolutely nothing now, in July” is the correct course of action The White Sox are known across the league for their proactivity. You can pretty much count on them to do the opposite of whatever conventional wisdom dictates just to prove they know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 The Sox players arent swinging for the fence though, they are just trying to make contact to beat infield shifts. Thats all they are doing and its the worst approach you can have in the modern day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 Situational hitting sucks. Either someone trying to play hero or not having a clue. Situational awareness sucks. This is not a playoff team. Guys unless we get lucky nothing is going to change with this org. And honestly until Uncle Jerry moves on I don't see anything major happening. How can you own a team 43 years and be so incompetent is beyond me. Jerry should be kissing every Sox fans ass for being so loyal during this shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 37 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: The White Sox are known across the league for their proactivity. You can pretty much count on them to do the opposite of whatever conventional wisdom dictates just to prove they know better. Your opinion was that it was too late to do anything. I’m just going off what you said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 33 minutes ago, JoshPR said: Situational hitting sucks. Either someone trying to play hero or not having a clue. Situational awareness sucks. This is not a playoff team. Guys unless we get lucky nothing is going to change with this org. And honestly until Uncle Jerry moves on I don't see anything major happening. How can you own a team 43 years and be so incompetent is beyond me. Jerry should be kissing every Sox fans ass for being so loyal during this shit. Runners in scoring position, .267 batting average, good for #2 in all of baseball under those conditions. OPS, .741 good for 17th in all of baseball. Scoring position 2 outs, .258 average is 6th best in baseball, .739 OPS is actually 11th best in baseball. Is the pattern clear yet? They are the exact same team in almost every situation other than having the bases loaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 9 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Far too late to change an entire team's offensive approach mid-season. You're saying that big league hitters can't make adjustments mid-season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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