Eloy is dead. Again.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

40 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

60 day IL or just shut him down and hope he comes back healthy next year but you can't fix stupid and laziness.

These kind of posts about athletes are so unfair. As an older adult you should know that projecting  what you perceive an athletes personality to be without truly knowing him  is "stupid and lazy". It requires no compassion, no understanding and no willingness to do anything except express bitterness over your disappointment with their underachievement.

We all do it from time to time. Moncada gets it a lot with the whole he doesn't care and he's got no passion for the game stuff. I'm guilty of it myself.

I know this isn't a real diehard sports message board without meatball fans takes and hostility but it's much better to just take a deep breathe and say he's just an athlete in a long line of athletes I've watched my whole life who I don't know anything about except they play for my favorite team.

[GREEDY]

Wake up Rick!

10 Day IL and another extended rehab stint.  

I see nothing that says he can help the team as-is and we need someone who can play LF for this series.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Even if they don't want to use Haesley, they could use Davis Martin as a long man in the event a starter doesn't have it early.

That said, Davis is likely on Tony's permanent shit list for pitching a strike to Jose Ramirez.

 

Right. I am constantly amazed that people can claim having more options is just another way for Tony to fuck up. So not only do we all dislike him as manager but we think taking players away from him makes him better ? Um no, it just limit's his ability to use the roster that MLB allows you to have and that your opposition has especially when you never know when the next hammy is going to be strained.

I know the whole Leury situation has led to this kind of thinking but playing with 25 players  instead of 26 is not a good thing and every time you take one away he just plays Leury even more. Let's give TLR more opportunities to use Leury !

[The Mighty Mite]

41 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

These kind of posts about athletes are so unfair. As an older adult you should know that projecting  what you perceive an athletes personality to be without truly knowing him  is "stupid and lazy". It requires no compassion, no understanding and no willingness to do anything except express bitterness over your disappointment with their underachievement.

We all do it from time to time. Moncada gets it a lot with the whole he doesn't care and he's got no passion for the game stuff. I'm guilty of it myself.

I know this isn't a real diehard sports message board without meatball fans takes and hostility but it's much better to just take a deep breathe and say he's just an athlete in a long line of athletes I've watched my whole life who I don't know anything about except they play for my favorite team.

It's just been such a frustrating season and I might have let my emotions get the best of me but for some reason our guys are not performing to the best of their abilities, just about everyone agrees that there have a quite a few instances of lack of hustle and not too smart baseball like our guys running into that triple play last week. Last night some here were on Anderson for some bonehead play, I didn't watch the game so I wasn't sure what transpired. As they say, things can only get better.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I continue to be just in shock that Eloy has busted like this. Had never seen a player like him in the minors (Robert happened post-) for the Sox. Just absolutely crushed each level with ease. No K rate issue. Fine BB rate. Huge power.

I still worry we’ll give up on him and he becomes Schwarber on another team. Because for whatever reason Hahn feels like we should have an offensive philosophy that plays against our hitters strengths.

What DH play even is there? He’s bad offensively. 

You simply cannot give up on Eloy.  He is due $10.3M next season, hardly a crippling sum.  You just have to hope he can focus on getting in shape over the winter, stay healthy and a new hitting coach unlocks his potential.  Its still in there offensively.  

Trading him for legit pennies on the dollar makes no sense.  He needs to be the DH tho, which means Abreu probably has to go. 

[southsider2k5]

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

29 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

It's just been such a frustrating season and I might have let my emotions get the best of me but for some reason our guys are not performing to the best of their abilities, just about everyone agrees that there have a quite a few instances of lack of hustle and not too smart baseball like our guys running into that triple play last week. Last night some here were on Anderson for some bonehead play, I didn't watch the game so I wasn't sure what transpired. As they say, things can only get better.

Yes very frustrating when you take into consideration what was expected coming out of the rebuild .When you've been around the White Sox for as many years as we have  you should know by now that the organization's top priority isn't winning. It's just do enough to keep money rolling in and turn a profit.

Everything else is just a reflection of that. They will never spend top money for behind the scenes people whose decisions lead to a better on field product. Jerry doesn't fire Hahn because Jerry know his GM is just too limited because of the restraints ownership puts on him.

Hahn is working with bottom of the barrel organizational people and what he does as a GM is directly tied to the poor information he receives from them. He doesn't scout the players he trades for. He doesn't make all these terrible decisions in a vacuum. He just processes information and more than likely not the best information. Then his assitant GM Kenny, Getz and finally Jerry puts there stamp of denial or approval on things.

I'll bust the organizations balls way more than I do the players. If they suck because their bodies can't handle the grind well , so be it. It won't be the 1st time extremely talented players careers have been ruined by injuries.

If they have bad attitudes wouldn't you playing for TLR and knowing all the failures throughout the whole organization ? Yes the players are well compensated but they are human too and if we perceive the organizational rot then so do they. State of mind is a big part of success and failure and this organization breeds failure.

[Highland]

I have never felt all that hot about the Eloy rehab. I don't anticipate him being a major contributor. I just hope they didn't bring him back too soon. 

[CentralChamps21]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

While I get the concept there’s a contract and roster spot issue here. Eloy has a roster spot and about $30 million guaranteed. How are you keeping all these guys and adding a RF? Who is getting cut if you don’t want to option Sheets or Vaughn to AAA. I guess maybe you could pull off optioning Eloy to AAA and having him be the best paid minor leaguer in the game for August?

Engel is still short of the 5 year service time required to be able to refuse being optioned to AAA.

[The Mighty Mite]

29 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes very frustrating when you take into consideration what was expected coming out of the rebuild .When you've been around the White Sox for as many years as we have  you should know by now that the organization's top priority isn't winning. It's just do enough to keep money rolling in and turn a profit.

Everything else is just a reflection of that. They will never spend top money for behind the scenes people whose decisions lead to a better on field product. Jerry doesn't fire Hahn because Jerry know his GM is just too limited because of the restraints ownership puts on him.

Hahn is working with bottom of the barrel organizational people and what he does as a GM is directly tied to the poor information he receives from them. He doesn't scout the players he trades for. He doesn't make all these terrible decisions in a vacuum. He just processes information and more than likely not the best information. Then his assitant GM Kenny, Getz and finally Jerry puts there stamp of denial or approval on things.

I'll bust the organizations balls way more than I do the players. If they suck because their bodies can't handle the grind well , so be it. It won't be the 1st time extremely talented players careers have been ruined by injuries.

If they have bad attitudes wouldn't you playing for TLR and knowing all the failures throughout the whole organization ? Yes the players are well compensated but they are human too and if we perceive the organizational rot then so do they. State of mind is a big part of success and failure and this organization breeds failure.

Good analysis, I for one has never been on Hahn's case because I know that he works for JR but I won't get started on that because I've despised JR for most of the 41 years he has been the chairman.

[Quin]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I continue to be just in shock that Eloy has busted like this. Had never seen a player like him in the minors (Robert happened post-) for the Sox. Just absolutely crushed each level with ease. No K rate issue. Fine BB rate. Huge power.

I still worry we’ll give up on him and he becomes Schwarber on another team. Because for whatever reason Hahn feels like we should have an offensive philosophy that plays against our hitters strengths.

What DH play even is there? He’s bad offensively. 

How different is everything if Eloy just decides to not try and rob a spring training home run?

Off the top of my head:

• Obviously, you get way more Eloy last year, which would presumably have led to more wins.
• No Yermin-mania and thus no TLR vs. Yermin
• Vaughn isn't a shoehorned LF and starts the season as the DH.

[Kyyle23]

Maybe he is just mostly dead, like Dread Pirate Roberts 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

20 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Good analysis, I for one has never been on Hahn's case because I know that he works for JR but I won't get started on that because I've despised JR for most of the 41 years he has been the chairman.

And the really sad part is that the good behind the scenes people, the best scouts , best analytics people, modern technology  etc, the cost for all that is minimal when compared to playing bad players good money that is the result of not having the best organizational people. It's the old penny wise and pound foolish routine. I don't know how Reinsdorf has been so successful without realizing it or he actually does realize it and somehow thinks ,as a business, the Sox are just fine doing it the way he's always done it.

That in turn means that winning baseball games is truly not the top priority and that he might just think the Sox just don't have the fan base to support him making the organization 1st class. But if an organization like Tampa Bay can do it with a smaller fan base and way smaller payroll I just don't understand how it isn't possible with the White Sox.

Prime example is Menechino . Here's a guy who teaches hitting the way he was as a player. Make contact , go the opposite way for a team that plays in a park where need to out homer your opponents to win . It just doesn't make sense when you have a bunch of big boys who should be knocking balls over the fences. Pitching and defense worked for the Sox in the Go-Go days but we are not in that old spacious Comiskey anymore. The current ballpark has small gaps and isn't conducive to a single and doubles hitting and going the opposite way.

The game has changed . It's now take walks, get on base and hit home runs or die.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[black jack]

Daaa Bessssss 

[Paulie4Pres]

4 hours ago, ptatc said:

I would really like to know what the injuries were and why it was determined they needed the surgeries. 

For surgery to be the solution, it would have to be a complete tear, right? I've never heard of surgery on a hamstring otherwise.

Given how many injuries can be resolved with physical therapy nowadays, I find it kind of disturbing how quickly guys on this team go under the knife. Surgery should be the last option for something like a hamstring. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Paulie4Pres

[ptatc]

13 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

For surgery to be the solution, it would have to be a complete tear, right? I've never heard of surgery on a hamstring otherwise.

Given how many injuries can be resolved with physical therapy nowadays, I find it kind of disturbing how quickly guys on this team go under the knife. Surgery should be the last option for something like a hamstring. 

That can't be the case here. A complete tear takes 2-3 months minimum to heal like Madrigal.

This is what confused me from the beginning.  What type of tendon/muscle injury requires surgery and they return in 4-6 weeks? I speculated it was a different tendon other than the hamstring due to the timeframe but I was obviously wrong because later on they did specify it was hamstring. 

I've never seen seen a repair surgery for a hamstring injury other than an avulsion. That doesn't necessarily mean anything as new procedures are always coming around and they are used with athletes who make the high dollar but I can't find anything on it in the literature databases either 

[Heads22]

3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

These kind of posts about athletes are so unfair. As an older adult you should know that projecting  what you perceive an athletes personality to be without truly knowing him  is "stupid and lazy". It requires no compassion, no understanding and no willingness to do anything except express bitterness over your disappointment with their underachievement.

We all do it from time to time. Moncada gets it a lot with the whole he doesn't care and he's got no passion for the game stuff. I'm guilty of it myself.

I know this isn't a real diehard sports message board without meatball fans takes and hostility but it's much better to just take a deep breathe and say he's just an athlete in a long line of athletes I've watched my whole life who I don't know anything about except they play for my favorite team.

 

Thanks for this post.

[Quin]

46 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Maybe he is just mostly dead, like Dread Pirate Roberts 

Why does Lu Pantera have to be such an A+ nickname.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

 Last night some here were on Anderson for some bonehead play, I didn't watch the game so I wasn't sure what transpired. As they say, things can only get better.

As far as that "bonehead" play goes even people who were watching it were extremely divided on what transpired. Basically Tim got hit by an 110MPH rocket batted ball between 2nd and 3rd base by Robert resulting in the 3rd out.

Some thought it was a bad base running play , others thought it was just bad luck and circumstances. No player wants to get hit on a batted ball when it was going to be  a hit that drives them in . But it was a rocket and he had very little time to avoid it. In that case I think we have to give the benefit of the doubt to the runner.

Even a top notch athlete with such a small amount of time to react might not be able to avoid what happened when he's getting his secondary lead. He's supposed to go on contact but when that contact results in a laser headed right at you, he literally didn't even has time yet to start running after the contact. It's not like the triple play where 2 runners did 2 stupid things at the same time when they had time to observe the catch made by the OF'er.

[greg775]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

You simply cannot give up on Eloy.  He is due $10.3M next season, hardly a crippling sum. 

Hate to say it but you can and should give up on Eloy. He's injury prone. It's unfortunate and sad but he's injury prone and the Sox obviously have no solution to keeping him healthy in the future. I guess reluctantly you could keep him around and keep paying him but the guy can't stay on the field.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes very frustrating when you take into consideration what was expected coming out of the rebuild .When you've been around the White Sox for as many years as we have  you should know by now that the organization's top priority isn't winning. It's just do enough to keep money rolling in and turn a profit.

Everything else is just a reflection of that. They will never spend top money for behind the scenes people whose decisions lead to a better on field product. Jerry doesn't fire Hahn because Jerry know his GM is just too limited because of the restraints ownership puts on him.

Hahn is working with bottom of the barrel organizational people and what he does as a GM is directly tied to the poor information he receives from them. He doesn't scout the players he trades for. He doesn't make all these terrible decisions in a vacuum. He just processes information and more than likely not the best information. Then his assitant GM Kenny, Getz and finally Jerry puts there stamp of denial or approval on things.

I'll bust the organizations balls way more than I do the players. If they suck because their bodies can't handle the grind well , so be it. It won't be the 1st time extremely talented players careers have been ruined by injuries.

If they have bad attitudes wouldn't you playing for TLR and knowing all the failures throughout the whole organization ? Yes the players are well compensated but they are human too and if we perceive the organizational rot then so do they. State of mind is a big part of success and failure and this organization breeds failure.

Jim Thome:

“And just honestly sitting around with Kenny and Rick and Jerry and discussing the moves and things that this organization is going to (do to) go forward. To be a part of that is very special. They’ve given me the opportunity to be around the game in that capacity, which I’ve got to say is very fun. I really have enjoyed it.

“Being around Rick and Kenny, the motivation to win is big. So that drove me now from this side, to try to be a part of a championship, just not as a player anymore, but now in the front office.

“Kenny’s great at scouting. Rick has a great demeanor. I think Rick is very well suited for his job. I think one of his biggest strengths is he’s a great listener. … He’s got a great personality. Top to bottom, I think our organization has a lot of those guys. They genuinely, passionately want to bring a championship here. I hope we’re all together to do that soon.”

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/jim-thome-brain-trust-white-sox-rebuild-they-genuinely-passionately-want-bring

 

I really hope Marco Paddy and Katz have just as much, if not more, input than Chris Getz.

Jeremy Haber, for sure, although nobody can really assert what he actually does…or how he does it differently from Hahn.

Hostetler has been a disaster.  Hard to believe they kept him around in a different capacity, but we saw the exact same treatment with Buddy Bell previously.

Dan Fabian in stats/analytics has to be right up there as well in terms of the top braintrust, if that’s the right word for it.

Edited July 14, 2022 by caulfield12

[Paulie4Pres]

29 minutes ago, ptatc said:

That can't be the case here. A complete tear takes 2-3 months minimum to heal like Madrigal.

This is what confused me from the beginning.  What type of tendon/muscle injury requires surgery and they return in 4-6 weeks? I speculated it was a different tendon other than the hamstring due to the timeframe but I was obviously wrong because later on they did specify it was hamstring. 

I've never seen seen a repair surgery for a hamstring injury other than an avulsion. That doesn't necessarily mean anything as new procedures are always coming around and they are used with athletes who make the high dollar but I can't find anything on it in the literature databases either 

Good points. Super strange, that's for sure.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

As far as that "bonehead" play goes even people who were watching it were extremely divided on what transpired. Basically Tim got hit by an 110MPH rocket batted ball between 2nd and 3rd base by Robert resulting in the 3rd out.

Some thought it was a bad base running play , others thought it was just bad luck and circumstances. No player wants to get hit on a batted ball when it was going to be  a hit that drives them in . But it was a rocket and he had very little time to avoid it. In that case I think we have to give the benefit of the doubt to the runner.

Even a top notch athlete with such a small amount of time to react might not be able to avoid what happened when he's getting his secondary lead. He's supposed to go on contact but when that contact results in a laser headed right at you, he literally didn't even has time yet to start running after the contact. It's not like the triple play where 2 runners did 2 stupid things at the same time when they had time to observe the catch made by the OF'er.

Well, there’s that ongoing claim about Anderson not being mentally focused this year…allegations from multiple women regarding extramarital affairs or a pregnancy,..if it was Abreu, nobody would say anything.  To others, it’s just one more data point supporting their preconceived notions about TA7.

With Anderson, Robert and Moncada, they will always have the weight of additional expectations to carry.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

26 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, there’s that ongoing claim about Anderson not being mentally focused this year…allegations from multiple women regarding extramarital affairs or a pregnancy,..if it was Abreu, nobody would say anything.  To others, it’s just one more data point supporting their preconceived notions about TA7.

With Anderson, Robert and Moncada, they will always have the weight of additional expectations to carry.

Right I realize that how you feel about a player will influence opinions. I am no great fan of how he's played since he came back from injury but that's just how things go sometimes after time off It may or may not has anything to do with his personal life. For all we know maybe he's been doing that sort of thing forever . Wouldn't be the 1st guy busted for infidelity. Lot's of guys are driven more by the little head than the head with the brain in it.

Since I consider myself more as a fan analyst I strive to look at each play in a pure baseball vacuum. Some people might say Tim distracts the hitter with his bouncing around 2nd base stuff whereas I say a player good with speed has to be on his toes all the time and that bouncing is designed to distract pitchers from making a good pitch if they pay too much attention to him. Ricky Henderson did this sort of thing all the time. Runners on 2nd base are always moving around checking fielder walking back and forth. The hitter's job is to focus on the pitchers, follow the pitchers hand and the flight of the ball when released, concentrate on the count and the situation, what pitch he might think is coming next based on scouting reports and his own weaknesses and the signs from his coaches. Any hitter distracted by the runner is not focused on his job at the plate. Tim should be invisible to the hitter with his mind focused where it should be.

If a particular hitter thinks it's distracting , that player can just ask Tim not to do it when he's on 2nd base while he's batting. But I really don't think it bothers many hitters who have dealt with runners on 2nd base moving around all their lives and should know that a runner who distracts a pitcher enough to cause him to make a bad pitch is more for their benefit than anything.

Edited July 14, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Harry Chappas]

4 hours ago, ptatc said:

This isn't true for general hamstring injuries. However the surgery is an entirely different situation. 

I still have never seen one of these and don't know anyone else who has had one other than the 3 from this team. 

An orthopedic surgeon friend of mine said he same thing.  How has that not been questioned by this organization.