Will the Sox ever outdraw the Cubs again?

[Tnetennba]

7 minutes ago, Quin said:

Caulfied, just a legitimate question: Why do you start so many attendance threads?

Someone’s personal obsession. 

[SouthSideRock]

I think the reason that the cubs have the attendance they do is the younger crowds that pulled towards Wrigley for the bars and surrounding areas that are easily accessible before/after the games.  To me, its almost more of an event go down party go to game party again.  Looking through the lens of being under 25.

[Tnetennba]

13 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Why would any team want to move into the smallest stadium in the league and be in the same market as the bears.  That’s ridiculous to even imagine

Yes, we should all be very concerned with what the crackpot multiple time failed mayoral candidate Willie Wilson has to say. 

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Tnetennba said:

It is hardly inevitable.  The Bears weren’t driven from the city, they made a choice.      Sox best move is NOT the suburbs.  Baseball’s stadium renaissance started with new downtown stadiums.  ATL is the only one I can think of in 30 years that moved to the burbs, and there were other factors involved.  There isn’t a better spot of land on which to build in the city with infrastructure, multiple transit options, and easy expressway access already in place than the empty lots surrounding current Sox Park.  Anywhere else near south or near west has logistical problems on top of continually escalating property costs.  Unless a new multibillionaire owner wants to spend gobs of their own money, the Sox aren’t going anywhere. 

The other problem would be the vast majority of people in Arlington Heights and surrounding suburbs (its where I grew up) are Cubs fans. The place would probably be even more empty.

[CentralChamps21]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The other problem would be the vast majority of people in Arlington Heights and surrounding suburbs (its where I grew up) are Cubs fans. The place would probably be even more empty.

Football and baseball are different dynamics. Only 9 home football games a year, nearly all on Sundays. Bears fans will drive to just about anywhere to go to games.

Baseball plays 81 home games on all days of the week. Needs to be accessible to all.

Is there any reason (aside from not wanting to give up parking revenue) that the Sox couldn't develop the NW corner of 35th/Wentworth into an dining/entertainment district?

[Bob Sacamano]

Who cares

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, mac9001 said:

The Sox best move is working out a deal with the Bears. Eventually the same restrictions and limitations that drove the bears out of Solider Field will also drive the Sox out. The south side of Chicago is just a terrible location for a large sports stadium, eventually they'll follow the money into the burbs, downtown or out of town. It's inevitable.

The Sox don't have the smallest stadium in their professional sports league with the least amount of premium sales space.

[CentralChamps21]

47 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The Sox don't have the smallest stadium in their professional sports league with the least amount of premium sales space.

Yeah, the Bears issue isn't city vs suburbs. The Bears issue is that you can't fit a modern NFL stadium that can adequately service a large market franchise within the historic outer shell of Soldier Field, and there aren't other options within the city where such a stadium can be built.

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Football and baseball are different dynamics. Only 9 home football games a year, nearly all on Sundays. Bears fans will drive to just about anywhere to go to games.

Baseball plays 81 home games on all days of the week. Needs to be accessible to all.

Is there any reason (aside from not wanting to give up parking revenue) that the Sox couldn't develop the NW corner of 35th/Wentworth into an dining/entertainment district?

It would take an owner willing to invest in the immediate neighbourhood, some greasing of the Alderman / Mayor / politicos, and possibly some zoning changes, but I see zero reason why it couldn’t be done.  The lots sit empty 99% of the time on non-game days and it’s a waste of prime real estate.  

[mac9001]

6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The Sox don't have the smallest stadium in their professional sports league with the least amount of premium sales space.

The Sox now for all purposes have the 2nd oldest stadium (A's will build a new one soon, so only Rogers is older with no major renovations). The Bears left because they're not going to let the Chicago Park District have a significant stake in the success of the franchise. The Sox will eventually come to the same revelation when they can own and develop real estate to suit their ends without any restrictions. South side of Chicago is a shitty place for property development, so is Solider Field and the Museum Campus (can't own lakefront property in Chicago). The moment the Sox have a competent management team they're gone.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, mac9001 said:

The Sox now for all purposes have the 2nd oldest stadium (A's will build a new one soon, so only Rogers is older with no major renovations). The Bears left because they're not going to let the Chicago Park District have a significant stake in the success of the franchise. The Sox will eventually come to the same revelation when they can own and develop real estate to suit their ends without any restrictions. South side of Chicago is a shitty place for property development, so is Solider Field and the Museum Campus (can't own lakefront property in Chicago). The moment the Sox have a competent management team they're gone.

 

Just now, mac9001 said:

The Sox now for all purposes have the 2nd oldest stadium (A's will build a new one soon, so only Rogers is older with no major renovations). The Bears left because they're not going to let the Chicago Park District have a significant stake in the success of the franchise. The Sox will eventually come to the same revelation when they can own and develop real estate to suit their ends without any restrictions. South side of Chicago is a shitty place for property development, so is Solider Field and the Museum Campus (can't own lakefront property in Chicago). The moment the Sox have a competent management team they're gone.

The Bears leaving Chicago is going to make the Sox a whole shitload of money on their next stadium deal.  They will bend the city of Chicago over a barrel to stop them from being the second team in a decade to leave.  Last I knew the Sox are locked in through 2033, but they will get what they want.  Tis the Chicago way.

[mac9001]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

The Bears leaving Chicago is going to make the Sox a whole shitload of money on their next stadium deal.  They will bend the city of Chicago over a barrel to stop them from being the second team in a decade to leave.  Last I knew the Sox are locked in through 2033, but they will get what they want.  Tis the Chicago way.

The time to leverage that is now. If I was the Sox and the play was to bend the city over now would be the time to engage the Bears and make a potential exit as real as possible.

Edited July 18, 2022 by mac9001

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, mac9001 said:

The time to leverage that is now. If I was the Sox and the play was to bend the city over now would be the time to engage the Bears and make a potential exit as real as possible.

Their lease isn't up for 11 years.  The threat only works so much, besides what incentive does JR have to expend capital in that fight right now when he won't own the team and neither will his son by the time this matters?

[Tnetennba]

JR could invest around Sox Park.  He always could.  He doesn’t want to.   Same with the United Center.  He’s content raking in parking dollars in his sweetheart stadium lease deal.  The threat of the Sox leaving any time soon is non-existent.  The Bears bailing on the city because the city won’t cater to them with tax dollars/breaks has absolutely nothing to do with the White Sox.  There is zero connection there.  The Bears moving to the burbs was of their own volition.  

[Tnetennba]

And as SS2K has already said, the Sox lease isn’t up for another decade+, so it’s  completely moot. 

[WBWSF]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Their lease isn't up for 11 years.  The threat only works so much, besides what incentive does JR have to expend capital in that fight right now when he won't own the team and neither will his son by the time this matters?

The lease is up in 2029.

[mac9001]

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

JR could invest around Sox Park.  He always could.  He doesn’t want to.   Same with the United Center.  He’s content raking in parking dollars in his sweetheart stadium lease deal.  The threat of the Sox leaving any time soon is non-existent.  The Bears bailing on the city because the city won’t cater to them with tax dollars/breaks has absolutely nothing to do with the White Sox.  There is zero connection there.  The Bears moving to the burbs was of their own volition.  

The moment the Sox have a competent management team with a vision they'll pursue a new stadium strategy. The South side is not attractive as a development site. AH was a nice sweet spot for the Bears. They managed to aquire a crap ton of land that will be worth multiples of it's current value with proper development and it can be reasonably accommodated with a public transport link to the CTA and an existing Metra stop. The Sox may not find that in Chicago, but I'm sure there's an opportunity somewhere in this country that's infinity more attractive than 35th and Shields.

If the city wants to keep the Sox the solution won't be a south side stadium. Not sure how feasibility you can turn Solider Field into a baseball stadium but they better start getting creative.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

The Bears leaving Chicago is going to make the Sox a whole shitload of money on their next stadium deal.  They will bend the city of Chicago over a barrel to stop them from being the second team in a decade to leave.  Last I knew the Sox are locked in through 2033, but they will get what they want.  Tis the Chicago way.

Everything I found online says 2029.  That’s a little bit more urgent than 2033.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-rosenthal-white-sox-guaranteed-rate-isfa-0828-biz-20160826-column.html

Those stadium projects usually require two full years to complete (2028-29)…then you have Chicago winter weather.

So they would have to have funding/architectural plans in place by no later than 2026-27.  Of course, quite obviously, the Sox would lose quite a bit of leverage if they have one of the worst teams in baseball in 2025-26-27.

They also signed a new t.v. deal for just five years, so the odds of a complete rebuild/teardown with both of these issues in mind…slim and none.

 

 

 

13-years (2017-2029)

 

“The stadium's current name was announced on October 31, 2016, after the Chicago-based private residential mortgage company Guaranteed Rate purchased the naming rights in a 13-year deal.”

Edited July 19, 2022 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Tnetennba said:

And as SS2K has already said, the Sox lease isn’t up for another decade+, so it’s  completely moot. 

See corrections below/above.

There’s already a ticking clock on all this…

 

https://www.fieldofschemes.com/2020/05/12/16111/a-savvy-negotiator-creates-leverage-that-time-the-white-sox-pretended-to-move-to-florida-to-get-stadium-money-from-illinois/

“As for St. Petersburg, city officials there kept shopping around for another team to lure to town, eventually helping the Baltimore Orioles, Cleveland Indians, and Texas Rangers create leverage to score new-stadium deals at home as well, as memorialized in a FoS magnet. Finally, it looked like the city had hit paydirt when San Francisco Giants owner Bob Lurie, frustrated at having failed four times to get stadium-subsidy referendums passed in the San Francisco Bay Area, announced he was selling the team to Tampa Bay businessman Vince Naimoli. The rest of the National League owners, however, voted to reject the sale and to tell Lurie to instead sell to local supermarket baron Peter Magowan, which he did, saving the Giants for San Francisco.”

So five teams got new stadiums out of the Tampa/St.Pete threat, with the Rangers’ stadium already replaced yet again for Globe Life or whatever it’s called.

Edited July 19, 2022 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Documentary on White Sox’ near move to Florida in the works

Scott Diener, who directed the Derrick Rose documentary, has been researching the story since last summer and has spoken with several key figures. But it still has to be pitched for distribution.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/8/20/21377560/chicago-white-sox-florida-scott-diener-jerry-reinsdorf-james-thompson-michael-madigan-comiskey-park

 

So, following that same timeline, the threats from JR will come in 2026-27…since it was a 1988 to 1991 window last time, and the White Sox had far and away the simplest stadium design (borrowed from KC, largely) of all the stadium projects proposed at that time.

One interesting tidbit.  Jerry Reinsdorf and Governor Jim Thompson were best buddies at Northwestern Law School. Of course, Sox GM Rick Hahn has his own NU ties.

[asindc]

Yes. 

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, asindc said:

Yes. 

Which year?

[WBWSF]

12 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Documentary on White Sox’ near move to Florida in the works

Scott Diener, who directed the Derrick Rose documentary, has been researching the story since last summer and has spoken with several key figures. But it still has to be pitched for distribution.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/8/20/21377560/chicago-white-sox-florida-scott-diener-jerry-reinsdorf-james-thompson-michael-madigan-comiskey-park

 

So, following that same timeline, the threats from JR will come in 2026-27…since it was a 1988 to 1991 window last time, and the White Sox had far and away the simplest stadium design (borrowed from KC, largely) of all the stadium projects proposed at that time.

One interesting tidbit.  Jerry Reinsdorf and Governor Jim Thompson were best buddies at Northwestern Law School. Of course, Sox GM Rick Hahn has his own NU ties.

If JR/or his sons still own the White Sox in 2026-2027 some  people seem to think he will  just extend the lease on the present stadium. He has a sweetheart deal  and is making nothing but money.  If he gets the same deal he just might extend the lease.

[WBWSF]

13 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Documentary on White Sox’ near move to Florida in the works

Scott Diener, who directed the Derrick Rose documentary, has been researching the story since last summer and has spoken with several key figures. But it still has to be pitched for distribution.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/8/20/21377560/chicago-white-sox-florida-scott-diener-jerry-reinsdorf-james-thompson-michael-madigan-comiskey-park

 

So, following that same timeline, the threats from JR will come in 2026-27…since it was a 1988 to 1991 window last time, and the White Sox had far and away the simplest stadium design (borrowed from KC, largely) of all the stadium projects proposed at that time.

One interesting tidbit.  Jerry Reinsdorf and Governor Jim Thompson were best buddies at Northwestern Law School. Of course, Sox GM Rick Hahn has his own NU ties.

One of the key figures is dead. Eddie Einhorn was the main person who wanted to move the White Sox to Florida. He wanted out of here. He didn't like playing 2nd fiddle to the Cubs. During that whole process Einhorn made so many bad comments about the White Sox fan base  he was getting threats on his life. Einhorn then hired body guards to protect himself. Einhorn also said that Florida was the best opportunity for MLB since the Dodgers moved to LA in 1958. How has baseball worked out in St.Pete? They've already had 4 ownerships there. If they don't get another stadium they're going to move out of there. When the White Sox agreed to stay in Chicago Einhorn sold most of his White Sox stock to JR. Einhorn left the scene after that. He was rarely here in Chicago after 1989.

[The Kids Can Play]

On 7/18/2022 at 7:03 AM, mac9001 said:

The Sox best move is working out a deal with the Bears. Eventually the same restrictions and limitations that drove the bears out of Solider Field will also drive the Sox out. The south side of Chicago is just a terrible location for a large sports stadium, eventually they'll follow the money into the burbs, downtown or out of town. It's inevitable.

I totally agree with this. The Sox should definitely go in together with the Bears at Arlington Heights. It works in Kansas City with the Royals in Kauffman Stadium and the Chiefs in Arrowhead Stadium, where both stadiums sit across the same parking lot from each other at the Truman Sports Complex.