Fire Rick Hahn

[South Side Hit Men]

18 minutes ago, Texsox said:

How are you defining winning team?

The Summer Decade of George Hahn (2013-2022)

Total Record over decade, average payroll over decade. Average Payroll = $126.8M.

1. Consistent Winners (.520 +) with Above Average Payrolls

• Los Angeles A. L. 931-588 .613 ($222)
• New York A. L. 858-660 .565 ($208)
• Saint Louis 848-668 .559 ($144)
• Boston 818-700 .539 ($182)
• Chicago N. L. 789-729 .520 ($153)

2. Consistent Winners with Below Average Payrolls 

• Cleveland 845-671 .557 ($92)
• Houston 832-686 .548 ($124)
• Tampa Bay 809-710 .533 ($69)
• Atlanta 793-723 .523 ($120)

3. Winners with Above Average Payrolls

• Washington 778-740 .513 ($152)
• Toronto 770-748 .507 ($134)
• New York N. L. 767-751 .505 ($148)
• San Francisco 766-752 .505 ($163)

4. Winners with Below Average Payrolls

• Milwaukee 778-740 .512 ($95)
• Oakland 772-746 .509 ($76)
• Seattle 762-756 .502 ($116)

5. Loser with Above Average Payroll

• Los Angeles A. L. 743-775 .489 ($163)

6. Consistent Losers (.480 -) with Above Average Payrolls

• Texas 714-805 .470 ($139)
• Philadelphia 704-814 .464 ($145)
• Detroit 684-829 .452 ($142)

7. Consistent Losers with Below Average Payrolls

• Minnesota 729-789 .480 ($111)
• Pittsburgh 726-790 .479 ($72)
• Kansas City 713-805 .470 ($104)
• San Diego 707-811 .466 ($114)
• Arizona 704-814 .464 ($97)
• Chicago A. L. 700-817 .461 ($115)
• Colorado 700-818 .461 ($116)
• Baltimore 687-831 .453 ($99)
• Cincinnati 684-834 .451 ($112)
• Miami 653-863 .431 ($71)

[GreenSox]

On 5/28/2023 at 4:53 PM, FloydBannister1983 said:

That encapsulates the entire Hahn approach to everything.  He’s no different than you’re co worker who knows nothing drafting a fantasy team.  They just draft based on the list.  No insight, no instincts, no eye for talent or eye for red flags.  Just pick the next guy on the list.  The list said Moncada was the guy, get him even though he looked lost in his call up with Boston.  Never a thought that maybe the people who make the projections could be wrong.

This is exactly it, beautifully written.
And I think the reason is that he's never learned to evaluate talent, never learned analytics, and has refused to surround himself with people who do understand these things. 

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The Summer Decade of George Hahn (2013-2022)

Total Record over decade, average payroll over decade. Average Payroll = $126.8M.

1. Consistent Winners (.520 +) with Above Average Payrolls

• Los Angeles A. L. 931-588 .613 ($222)
• New York A. L. 858-660 .565 ($208)
• Saint Louis 848-668 .559 ($144)
• Boston 818-700 .539 ($182)
• Chicago N. L. 789-729 .520 ($153)

2. Consistent Winners with Below Average Payrolls 

• Cleveland 845-671 .557 ($92)
• Houston 832-686 .548 ($124)
• Tampa Bay 809-710 .533 ($69)
• Atlanta 793-723 .523 ($120)

3. Winners with Above Average Payrolls

• Washington 778-740 .513 ($152)
• Toronto 770-748 .507 ($134)
• New York N. L. 767-751 .505 ($148)
• San Francisco 766-752 .505 ($163)

4. Winners with Below Average Payrolls

• Milwaukee 778-740 .512 ($95)
• Oakland 772-746 .509 ($76)
• Seattle 762-756 .502 ($116)

5. Loser with Above Average Payroll

• Los Angeles A. L. 743-775 .489 ($163)

6. Consistent Losers (.480 -) with Above Average Payrolls

• Texas 714-805 .470 ($139)
• Philadelphia 704-814 .464 ($145)
• Detroit 684-829 .452 ($142)

7. Consistent Losers with Below Average Payrolls

• Minnesota 729-789 .480 ($111)
• Pittsburgh 726-790 .479 ($72)
• Kansas City 713-805 .470 ($104)
• San Diego 707-811 .466 ($114)
• Arizona 704-814 .464 ($97)
• Chicago A. L. 700-817 .461 ($115)
• Colorado 700-818 .461 ($116)
• Baltimore 687-831 .453 ($99)
• Cincinnati 684-834 .451 ($112)
• Miami 653-863 .431 ($71)

I think the group you’ve been too harsh on is 6, Detroit, Philly, and Texas. Each of those teams had just finished a stretch where they were competitive, but got too old and too expensive so they had to switch to rebuild. Maybe some mistakes in there (Cabrera, Howard extensions), but overall they’re sort of “normal”, they go through cycles of competitive and rebuilding, and this time period caught them during most of a rebuilding stretch so their record isn’t great. The Cubs, Nationals are similar styles, except you caught the peak for those rosters in the selected time period. I would have no problem being in that group compared to the real losers at the bottom.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think the group you’ve been too harsh on is 6, Detroit, Philly, and Texas. Each of those teams had just finished a stretch where they were competitive, but got too old and too expensive so they had to switch to rebuild. Maybe some mistakes in there (Cabrera, Howard extensions), but overall they’re sort of “normal”, they go through cycles of competitive and rebuilding, and this time period caught them during most of a rebuilding stretch so their record isn’t great. The Cubs, Nationals are similar styles, except you caught the peak for those rosters in the selected time period. I would have no problem being in that group compared to the real losers at the bottom.

Strasburg basically deal forced Rendon and Soto off the roster. 

 

At any rate, James Wood from the Padres' trade is now being projected to be a star by many scouts. 

Abrams a Top 5 MiLB prospect and MacKenzie Gore wasn't far off. 

 

They did what they had to do to kick off a rebuild. 

[Texsox]

19 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The Summer Decade of George Hahn (2013-2022)

Total Record over decade, average payroll over decade. Average Payroll = $126.8M.

1. Consistent Winners (.520 +) with Above Average Payrolls

• Los Angeles A. L. 931-588 .613 ($222)
• New York A. L. 858-660 .565 ($208)
• Saint Louis 848-668 .559 ($144)
• Boston 818-700 .539 ($182)
• Chicago N. L. 789-729 .520 ($153)

2. Consistent Winners with Below Average Payrolls 

• Cleveland 845-671 .557 ($92)
• Houston 832-686 .548 ($124)
• Tampa Bay 809-710 .533 ($69)
• Atlanta 793-723 .523 ($120)

3. Winners with Above Average Payrolls

• Washington 778-740 .513 ($152)
• Toronto 770-748 .507 ($134)
• New York N. L. 767-751 .505 ($148)
• San Francisco 766-752 .505 ($163)

4. Winners with Below Average Payrolls

• Milwaukee 778-740 .512 ($95)
• Oakland 772-746 .509 ($76)
• Seattle 762-756 .502 ($116)

5. Loser with Above Average Payroll

• Los Angeles A. L. 743-775 .489 ($163)

6. Consistent Losers (.480 -) with Above Average Payrolls

• Texas 714-805 .470 ($139)
• Philadelphia 704-814 .464 ($145)
• Detroit 684-829 .452 ($142)

7. Consistent Losers with Below Average Payrolls

• Minnesota 729-789 .480 ($111)
• Pittsburgh 726-790 .479 ($72)
• Kansas City 713-805 .470 ($104)
• San Diego 707-811 .466 ($114)
• Arizona 704-814 .464 ($97)
• Chicago A. L. 700-817 .461 ($115)
• Colorado 700-818 .461 ($116)
• Baltimore 687-831 .453 ($99)
• Cincinnati 684-834 .451 ($112)
• Miami 653-863 .431 ($71)

Yep, then overcoming injuries is the difference between winning and losing. And 2/3 rds of the teams don't win. 

[South Side Hit Men]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think the group you’ve been too harsh on is 6, Detroit, Philly, and Texas. Each of those teams had just finished a stretch where they were competitive, but got too old and too expensive so they had to switch to rebuild. Maybe some mistakes in there (Cabrera, Howard extensions), but overall they’re sort of “normal”, they go through cycles of competitive and rebuilding, and this time period caught them during most of a rebuilding stretch so their record isn’t great. The Cubs, Nationals are similar styles, except you caught the peak for those rosters in the selected time period. I would have no problem being in that group compared to the real losers at the bottom.

I just slotted based on criteria. Thought + .520 - .480 was a good threshold.

All three were coming off their previous legitimate multi-championship windows, so it's just the timing of Hahn's tenure that puts them here. Texas and Philadelphia have good teams today, Detroit is on the upswing as well.

Sox and Colorado identical twins, identical bottom barrel front offices.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Yep, then overcoming injuries is the difference between winning and losing. And 2/3 rds of the teams don't win. 

Where the teams slot have nothing to do with injuries. These records are over ten years.

The records have to do with performance and payroll. The Sox aren't too far off the average payroll, and are among the worst.

Also, 16 of 30 teams have winning records over the period. Do teachers cover math in Texas?

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I just slotted based on criteria. Thought + .520 - .480 was a good threshold.

All three were coming off their previous legitimate multi-championship windows, so it's just the timing of Hahn's tenure that puts them here. Texas and Philadelphia have good teams today, Detroit is on the upswing as well.

Sox and Colorado identical twins, identical bottom barrel front offices.

That works for me. There’s like 6 or 7 teams truly mired down there as pretty bad. KC, Pittsburgh have some excuses because they truly have limited resources, and KC still won a title recently. Colorado, Arizona, Chicago, LAA, Cincinnati, Miami, those are just really bad franchises.

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Yep, then overcoming injuries is the difference between winning and losing. And 2/3 rds of the teams don't win. 

He listed 17 teams as winners and 13 teams as losers. I suggested he was too harsh on 3 teams.

But just following the numbers, he has 17 teams as winners and you interpreted that as 1/3. So, from your math, 13/30 = 2/3. I agree, that is the math required to excuse Rick Hahn.

[JoeC]

5 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Where the teams slot have nothing to do with injuries. These records are over ten years.

The records have to do with performance and payroll. The Sox aren't too far off the average payroll, and are among the worst.

Also, 16 of 30 teams have winning records over the period. Do teachers cover math in Texas?

The Tigers also went through a significant ownership transition from Mike Illitch (spend whatever the fork you want if it means winning) to his kids.

I bet his kids cringed the day Mike approved the Cabrera contract.

[caulfield12]

25 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

This is exactly it, beautifully written.
And I think the reason is that he's never learned to evaluate talent, never learned analytics, and has refused to surround himself with people who do understand these things. 

His entire legacy is signing Anderson Sale Eaton and Q to team friendly deals. 

Robert Jr. was more KW Paddy and Abreu...

[SonofaRoache]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

I think he's an average GM in a really bad organization that experiences the worst luck imaginable. 

He built a roster that everyone (fans, Vegas, baseball insiders) thought would contend for several years and watched it implode from injuries and the worst managing imaginable. 

He's the figurehead and needs to go. But without a wholesale clearing the systemic problems will always be there. 

A few problems. 

The fans wanted Machado or Harper. An MVP caliber player that can carry an offense and take pressure of off hitters. 

The fans saw this team had s%*# defense and DH's playing in the outfield. 

We watched this team do next to nothing to address the lack of power. 

Yeah there was hope before, but they truly failed building and supplementing this roster as necessary.  

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

A few problems. 

The fans wanted Machado or Harper. An MVP caliber player that can carry an offense and take pressure of off hitters. 

The fans saw this team had s%*# defense and DH's playing in the outfield. 

We watched this team do next to nothing to address the lack of power. 

Yeah there was hope before, but they truly failed building and supplementing this roster as necessary.  

There was zero reason they couldn't afford to win the bidding for either Machado or Harper. 

Zero. 

Besides JR. 

Edited May 30, 2023 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

That works for me. There’s like 6 or 7 teams truly mired down there as pretty bad. KC, Pittsburgh have some excuses because they truly have limited resources, and KC still won a title recently. Colorado, Arizona, Chicago, LAA, Cincinnati, Miami, those are just really bad franchises.

Baltimore, Miami and Pittsburgh weren't spending legitimately, would blame ownership.

Arizona was driven by Tony La Russa and Dave Stewart's Rick Hahn like negligence.

Kansas made two World Series, been tanking lately, but did the best they could with limited resources.

Minnesota was in somewhat similar circumstances as Detroit, Philadelphia and Texas, coming off a stretch of division wins / playoffs (6 of 9), and they are at least trying the past few years with Correa and other signings.

Cincinnati, Colorado and the White Sox are out of their element, spend enough to at least occasionally contend but are unable. Angels and the Padres the past few years are the same but with even more money to burn.

I didn't agree with the Sox signing Machado or other $300-$500M players with the current owner. It would constrain them even more than the Grandal/Keuchel/Benintendi deals. It could work with a new owner. Would rather start with an excellent home grown player getting the first nine figure deal. Time will tell if Robert can play consistently to earn one, and if Jerry remains alive to deny him.

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Baltimore, Miami and Pittsburgh weren't spending legitimately, would blame ownership.

Arizona was driven by Tony La Russa and Dave Stewart's Rick Hahn like negligence.

Kansas made two World Series, been tanking lately, but did the best they could with limited resources.

Minnesota was in somewhat similar circumstances as Detroit, Philadelphia and Texas, coming off a stretch of division wins / playoffs (6 of 9), and they are at least trying the past few years with Correa and other signings.

Cincinnati, Colorado and the White Sox are out of their element, spend enough to at least occasionally contend but are unable. Angels and the Padres the past few years are the same but with even more money to burn.

I didn't agree with the Sox signing Machado or other $300-$500M players with the current owner. It would constrain them even more than the Grandal/Keuchel/Benintendi deals. It could work with a new owner. Would rather start with an excellent home grown player getting the first nine figure deal. Time will tell if Robert can play consistently to earn one, and if Jerry remains alive to deny him.

Twins are now dangerous with Lewis back. 

Correa might not work out as expected, but keeping Buxton over Berrios was right move.  And showed a commitment to a skeptical fanbase with the Yankees all up in their heads. 

(Of course, Arrraez has been one of Top Ten players in NL, but they desperately needed a solid 3 in Lopez to go with Ryan and Gray.  Duran the best closer in the Central over Clase.

Sanchez and Sano was addition by subtraction.) 

Edited May 30, 2023 by caulfield12

[Middle Buffalo]

17 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

The fans wanted Machado or Harper. An MVP caliber player that can carry an offense and take pressure off off hitters. 

I wanted Harper for several reasons (RF, power LH bat), but his “star power” was probably equal to anything he offered on the field. Simply making a non relevant team relevant nationally.

[South Side Hit Men]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Twins are now dangerous with Lewis back. 

Correa might not work out as expected, but keeping Buxton over Berrios was right move.  And showed a commitment to a skeptical fanbase with the Yankees all up in their heads. 

(Of course, Arrraez has been one of Top Ten players in NL, but they desperately needed a solid 3 in Lopez to go with Ryan and Gray.  Duran the best closer in the Central over Clase.

Sanchez and Sano was addition by subtraction.) 

I wanted the Sox to trade Eloy and Mercedes two years ago for Lopez when it was rumored Ng was interested. That would have been so awesome for the White Sox.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

42 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

A few problems. 

The fans wanted Machado or Harper. An MVP caliber player that can carry an offense and take pressure of off hitters. 

The fans saw this team had s%*# defense and DH's playing in the outfield. 

We watched this team do next to nothing to address the lack of power. 

Yeah there was hope before, but they truly failed building and supplementing this roster as necessary.  

They didn't want to spend money on Harper and Machado because they prioritized re-signing their young championshit core.  Now they can't find anyone who would want them.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

They didn't want to spend money on Harper and Machado because they prioritized re-signing their young championshit core.  Now they can't find anyone who would want them.

That's true. Kenny made the statement they couldn't go the two additional years on Machado because they had to have money to resign their own players. LOL.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

They didn't want to spend money on Harper and Machado because they prioritized re-signing their young championshit core.  Now they can't find anyone who would want them.

Well, Robert, Cease and even Kopech would have a good number of takers.

Otherwise, based on contracts, not so much.

Surely a number of GM's believe Anderson will be much better away from the White Sox.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

That's true. Kenny made the statement they couldn't go the two additional years on Machado because they had to have money to resign their own players. LOL.

Which would have been Giolito, Madrigal, Vaughn, Cease and Kopech, in theory...

[Texsox]

8 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

He listed 17 teams as winners and 13 teams as losers. I suggested he was too harsh on 3 teams.

But just following the numbers, he has 17 teams as winners and you interpreted that as 1/3. So, from your math, 13/30 = 2/3. I agree, that is the math required to excuse Rick Hahn.

This year how many teams do you believe if things went right for them could win the AL? 15? 10? 5?

How many can survive major injuries?

I'm think there are two teams that remain competitive with major injuries, and three or four that could win but key injuries would end their chances, and nine that don't have a chance. 

I think elite franchise are what you call winners, winning franchises keep giving themselves chances in that second tier, and finally there are the worst of the worst franchises like the Sox that occasionally get to winning chances but never elite.

You more than anyone has proven to me what a horrible franchise this is. I've grown to absolutely loath them. I no longer innocently just cheer for whomever is out there. 

 

[Texsox]

8 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

A few problems. 

The fans wanted Machado or Harper. An MVP caliber player that can carry an offense and take pressure of off hitters. 

The fans saw this team had s%*# defense and DH's playing in the outfield. 

We watched this team do next to nothing to address the lack of power. 

Yeah there was hope before, but they truly failed building and supplementing this roster as necessary.  

Agreed. What team couldn't use them? The real challenge is get them (and a couple others of similar pedigree) plus have championship caliber replacements available if they get hurt. 

[White Sox Park]

10 hours ago, Middle Buffalo said:

I wanted Harper for several reasons (RF, power LH bat), but his “star power” was probably equal to anything he offered on the field. Simply making a non relevant team relevant nationally.

Not acquiring Bryce Harper, was the first, in a long string of disappointments by this organization, that have made me turn away, and consider not coming back.

[SonofaRoache]

11 hours ago, Middle Buffalo said:

I wanted Harper for several reasons (RF, power LH bat), but his “star power” was probably equal to anything he offered on the field. Simply making a non relevant team relevant nationally.

I didn't want to mention that because it hurts. I remember fans talked about adding relevancy to national attention to the team with Harper especially. Harper basically would have offset a lot of his contract for Jerry.