Fire Rick Hahn

[Highland]

I know it is easy for us to tell someone how to spend their money. However, we can see by the moves made by large market teams, you need to open the check book at least once in a while. MLB economics are not going to change because JR can't or won't spend. We fans were hoping for some consistency and some winning seasons. I am not waiting for that to happen.

[Jack Parkman]

11 hours ago, maxjusttyped said:

The number of people who were defending that decision both at the time AND during the season while Rodon was dominating will never make sense to me.

In hindsight it was terrible but even in 2021 Rodon was struggling with his health. It was perfectly reasonable to make the assumption that he'd never stay healthy. 

He's only pitched 160 innings once since 2016 and that was in 2022. 

[reiks12]

The White Sox are the only team that doesnt spend on big free agents and can't develop a farm system all while pretending to be contending. I honestly cant think of any other. 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, reiks12 said:

The White Sox are the only team that doesnt spend on big free agents and can't develop a farm system all while pretending to be contending. I honestly cant think of any other. 

Preach. 

[reiks12]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

In hindsight it was terrible but even in 2021 Rodon was struggling with his health. It was perfectly reasonable to make the assumption that he'd never stay healthy. 

He's only pitched 160 innings once since 2016 and that was in 2022. 

Well he changed his delivery at the start of 2021 and has been fine since. He had deadarm that season because of his lack of workload over the previous 2 seasons. 2 strong years in a row.

[Harry Chappas]

10 hours ago, Tony said:

Amazing how quickly things change. Logic told me that they knew more than others when it came to the health of Rodon, they were using info no one else had and knew it wasn’t a safe bet. 
 

The Rodon/Kimbrel situation is really where all the trust fell apart, then 2022 happened and…here we are 

The JR most risk averse move was to give him the QO.  It was a safe easy option.  

I always liked him and hated to see him go and as you said picking up the Kimbrell option shows you how bad Hahn's decision making is.  You roll the dice on your guy, the guy you drafted and developed.  Not the guy that had a hot start with the cubs earlier that year and has been hit or miss for a while.

Then in the offseason you let Rodon walk, pick up the option and double down on risky arms (Graveman and Kelly).

I have zero faith that Hahn has any clue what he is doing.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

In hindsight it was terrible but even in 2021 Rodon was struggling with his health. It was perfectly reasonable to make the assumption that he'd never stay healthy. 

He's only pitched 160 innings once since 2016 and that was in 2022. 

In 2021 Rodon was not struggling with his health. He was struggling with the fact his arm wasn't conditioned for so many innings that year because of his workload the previous 2 years. I will always maintain that a tired arm is not a health issue but an endurance issue. You can't run a marathon without training for it.

I give  lot of credit to people in that thread about the qualifying offer who had no trust in the Sox to pursue better players and correctly linked keeping Kimbrel with not extending Rodon.

The amount of trust in Sox management to ascertain both Rodon's and Kimbrel's value was appalling . And then also to trust them to replace them with players that would help the team and also to extend the payroll was equally appalling. Guys like @Balta1701 @Eminor3rd  @caulfield12 @Look at Ray Ray Run  Two Gun Pete and others were spot on and at many points ridiculed for their stances.

Yet some of those same guys doing the ridiculing ,despite Fegan saying the Sox payroll was going to be the same or cut from last year, kept posting early this off season that they didn't trust Fegan was right and kept suggesting signings for potential comeback candidates in the OF for $10M + .

Reasonable hope is one thing. Sticking to your guns despite all evidence to the contrary is just plain stubbornness and unwillingness to admit your prior stances in this regard were wrong. Just blame TLR and push that Grifol's presence will have a major impact while JR rubs his hands together with glee that the Sox could still finish 2nd and keep that carrot dangling.

[Jack Parkman]

46 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

Well he changed his delivery at the start of 2021 and has been fine since. He had deadarm that season because of his lack of workload over the previous 2 seasons. 2 strong years in a row.

Obviously it was deadarm, but how were we to know that at the time? 

Complaining about letting Rodon walk is completely a hindsight argument. The decision looks worse than it actually was. 

[Bob Sacamano]

31 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Obviously it was deadarm, but how were we to know that at the time? 

Complaining about letting Rodon walk is completely a hindsight argument. The decision looks worse than it actually was. 

Maybe, but I don't think it was a question to offer the QO or not. Many thought he should have been offered the QO at the time.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Maybe, but I don't think it was a question to offer the QO or not. Many thought he should have been offered the QO at the time.

I think that was also a question. Would you want to spend $18.5M on a pitcher, that while good when healthy, is never healthy? Is that a smart allocation of resources? 

If you want to argue Rodon vs Kimbrel/Pollock that is a completely different story. I would have been on board with them giving Rodon the QO if they didn't pick up Kimbrel's option like idiots. 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think that was also a question. Would you want to spend $18.5M on a pitcher, that while good when healthy, is never healthy? Is that a smart allocation of resources? 

If you want to argue Rodon vs Kimbrel/Pollock that is a completely different story. I would have been on board with them giving Rodon the QO if they didn't pick up Kimbrel's option like idiots. 

 

IMO, I don't think he would have accepted the QO so you wouldn't have the $18.5M pitcher.

I think he would have rejected and received a similar deal to what he got either way. Worked out that way for Syndergaard, who received and rejected a QO after coming off a season he threw 2 innings.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Bob Sacamano

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

51 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Obviously it was deadarm, but how were we to know that at the time? 

Complaining about letting Rodon walk is completely a hindsight argument. The decision looks worse than it actually was. 

Because he continued to pitch in the 2nd half with extended rests between some starts and in the playoffs too. If xrays or MRI's had shown anything would he have been still pitching ? The dude gave it all he had that year while the Sox pitched him to death in the 1st half of the season to save the BP or whatever reason they had with no regards for his effectiveness and endurance in the 2nd half.

As usual they reaped what they had sown. Its not a hindsight argument at all a lot of people were right about the decision at the time the qualifying offer wasn't made and others during the offseason after that thread was closed.

Edited December 13, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think that was also a question. Would you want to spend $18.5M on a pitcher, that while good when healthy, is never healthy? Is that a smart allocation of resources? 

If you want to argue Rodon vs Kimbrel/Pollock that is a completely different story. I would have been on board with them giving Rodon the QO if they didn't pick up Kimbrel's option like idiots. 

 

You're asking the wrong questions. The question always was and continues to be do winning organizations let a top pitcher in the league who had reinvented himself to make himself a sturdier pitcher who wasn't injured at the time walk for a measly 1 year contract when if he continued to be healthy could give you a similar season next year and into the playoffs without the endurance issues from the year before ? It would be reasonable to assume that if healthy he would pitch more inning in 2022.

The issue was why should a one year $18.4 yer contract inhibit a team so much that was serious about winning ? Then that money and more was spent on Kelly and Pollock. Yeesh.

[Jack Parkman]

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You're asking the wrong questions. The question always was and continues to be do winning organizations let a top pitcher in the league who had reinvented himself to make himself a sturdier pitcher who wasn't injured at the time walk for a measly 1 year contract when if he continued to be healthy could give you a similar season next year and into the playoffs without the endurance issues from the year before ? It would be reasonable to assume that if healthy he would pitch more inning in 2022.

The issue was why should a one year $18.4 yer contract inhibit a team so much that was serious about winning ? Then that money and more was spent on Kelly and Pollock. Yeesh.

I think Jerry's budgets suck and are ridiculous, but I consider offseason moves based on what's realistic vs how I wish they would operate. 

Once they picked up Kimbrel, Rodon was no longer an option. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[Balta1701]

27 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think that was also a question. Would you want to spend $18.5M on a pitcher, that while good when healthy, is never healthy? Is that a smart allocation of resources? 

If you want to argue Rodon vs Kimbrel/Pollock that is a completely different story. I would have been on board with them giving Rodon the QO if they didn't pick up Kimbrel's option like idiots. 

 

For that level of performance, where the upside is a 5-6 win pitcher and/or a draft pick, yes, that would have been a smart allocation of resources. And yes, I started off last offsaeason by saying "we probably don't have the money for both and that means we have to go with Rodon because he's way more likely to be worth it"

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

In hindsight it was terrible but even in 2021 Rodon was struggling with his health. It was perfectly reasonable to make the assumption that he'd never stay healthy. 

He's only pitched 160 innings once since 2016 and that was in 2022. 

But the context in which they decline Rodon but pick up Kimbrel's option, makes the move indefensible.  The risks on Kimbrel were higher, and the value much smaller.
Part of this, I'm sure, was due to the Hahn/Haber general fixation on relievers, from allocating a large part of the budget to them, to using multiple high draft picks on relievers, and then to Kimbrel over Rodon.

[Jack Parkman]

49 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

But the context in which they decline Rodon but pick up Kimbrel's option, makes the move indefensible.  The risks on Kimbrel were higher, and the value much smaller.
Part of this, I'm sure, was due to the Hahn/Haber general fixation on relievers, from allocating a large part of the budget to them, to using multiple high draft picks on relievers, and then to Kimbrel over Rodon.

I don't disagree. 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

55 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

But the context in which they decline Rodon but pick up Kimbrel's option, makes the move indefensible.  The risks on Kimbrel were higher, and the value much smaller.
Part of this, I'm sure, was due to the Hahn/Haber general fixation on relievers, from allocating a large part of the budget to them, to using multiple high draft picks on relievers, and then to Kimbrel over Rodon.

Don’t count out the fact that Hahn can’t ever admit failure. He HAD to pick up the option to prove he made the right decision in acquiring Kimbrel and prove he had positive value to other teams (he didn’t).

[LittleHurtCG]

15 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Don’t count out the fact that Hahn can’t ever admit failure. He HAD to pick up the option to prove he made the right decision in acquiring Kimbrel and prove he had positive value to other teams (he didn’t).

Agree 100%. Hubris and good old fashioned incompetence played a big role on why the Kimbrel option was picked up last offseason. The Sox traded a top 5 pick for Kimbrel. There wa no way they weren't going to pick up the option and admit thier massive blunder. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think Jerry's budgets suck and are ridiculous, but I consider offseason moves based on what's realistic vs how I wish they would operate. 

Once they picked up Kimbrel, Rodon was no longer an option. 

He could have been an option based on what they spent on everyone else that off season. You decline Kimbrels option so you can spend his $16 M on fixing holes. They spent money but they got Kelly, Pollock, extended Leury and who else ? Graveman and Harrison and Cueto later after Lynn got injured.

The facts are they spent the money poorly. Add up that $16M and subtract Pollock being forced on you because you couldnt get anyone else, subtract the 2 years $17M on the injured Kelly,  Harrison, subtract 2 of the 3 years of money spent on Leury you're looking at somewhere around $45M dollars to play with. Then if Rodon had turned down the QO you add a draft pick. It was a terrible off season. Realistically  speaking the Sox spent money and every decision they made including the realistic money that was available was spent poorly.

Remember they also spent money on Graveman 3 years $24M so they spent plenty of money. They just put most of it into relievers and exchanged a relievers salary for more salary with Pollock. Only by Pollock turning down his own option that the Sox got some money that was already on the books back. If it wasn't for that maybe they don't even pick up Clevinger.

Edited December 13, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Snopek]

It's pretty cool how risk-averse the team can be with regards to the contracts they won't sign, but they'll go right ahead and throw a couple of first basemen out in the outfield, shrug their shoulders, and see what happens.

[reiks12]

33 minutes ago, Snopek said:

It's pretty cool how risk-averse the team can be with regards to the contracts they won't sign, but they'll go right ahead and throw a couple of first basemen out in the outfield, shrug their shoulders, and see what happens.

Post of the thread

[Jack Parkman]

40 minutes ago, Snopek said:

It's pretty cool how risk-averse the team can be with regards to the contracts they won't sign, but they'll go right ahead and throw a couple of first basemen out in the outfield, shrug their shoulders, and see what happens.

This is a great post. 

[Jack Parkman]

 

[shago]

4 hours ago, reiks12 said:

The White Sox are the only team that doesnt spend on big free agents and can't develop a farm system all while pretending to be contending. I honestly cant think of any other. 

We're one of the only teams owned by a consortium of investors with a headline owner who doesn't actually have any cash.