Fire Rick Hahn

[mmmmmbeeer]

3 hours ago, Tony said:

 

Bullshit

There is nothing misleading about the Sox having an 180 million dollar payroll this year, and being 7-15, along with all the other stats that have been mentioned.

You act as if Rick Hahn has never met Jerry or has no understanding of how he operates. Yes, he isn’t able to sign a Bryce Harper. That sucks for us and Rick, and Jerry needs to go. We are all on the same page.

But to place all the blame on Jerry, and taking any of the blame off Rick is insane and asinine. We just got swept by the best team in the league, who hold a payroll of 74 million. They have been in the playoffs the last 4 years, and currently have the best record in MLB. 

The decisions Rick have made has directly put the Sox in this position. It’s his job to work within the limitations the owner sets, which quite frankly isn’t near as limiting as teams like the Rays, Brewers, Guardians, etc…who have had a way better track record than the Sox the last decade. 

You're confusing my words regarding Reinsdorf as a reprieve for Hahn.  That couldn't be further from the truth.

That said, we don't know what guarantees were made behind closed doors.  Hahn was awfully boisterous in 2019 about spending the money.  He said we'd be major players on the FA market.  He pitched both Machado and Harper (and Harper said it was close).  Somewhere along the way, Jerry very clearly told him he'd have money to spend.  Ultimately, when it came time to turn talk into action, Jerry went full Jerry and went cheap.  Of course, all this  doesn't even get into Hahn's legs being cut right out from under him in the middle of the rebuild when Jerry brought in TLR.

Hahn's performance has been pretty damn bad.  By the same token, outside of a few incredibly impressive Houdini acts, name me a GM who has established success when they're unable to sign a contract for greater total value than $75M in the year 2023.   Unless you have both a primo minor league system and scouting department, a GM must make things work via the FA or trade market.  AKA..spend money.   Again, who are the types of players you're going to sign for <$75M total value?  Retreads, prove-it deals, players on the backsides of their careers, relief pitchers and mediocre players.  That's it.  You CANNOT build a winning team/culture with these sorts of limitations, an underfunded farm system, and a woeful scouting department that's made up of Jerry's buddies who you do not have the power to fire.  

  

 

[Tnetennba]

3 hours ago, Tony said:

 

Bullshit

There is nothing misleading about the Sox having an 180 million dollar payroll this year, and being 7-15, along with all the other stats that have been mentioned.

You act as if Rick Hahn has never met Jerry or has no understanding of how he operates. Yes, he isn’t able to sign a Bryce Harper. That sucks for us and Rick, and Jerry needs to go. We are all on the same page.

But to place all the blame on Jerry, and taking any of the blame off Rick is insane and asinine. We just got swept by the best team in the league, who hold a payroll of 74 million. They have been in the playoffs the last 4 years, and currently have the best record in MLB. 

The decisions Rick have made has directly put the Sox in this position. It’s his job to work within the limitations the owner sets, which quite frankly isn’t near as limiting as teams like the Rays, Brewers, Guardians, etc…who have had a way better track record than the Sox the last decade. 

A competent GM could in theory build a winner under JR’s restraints.  But would a competent GM work for the Sox?  Could they?  Would they ever hire someone who might actually shake up the ass backwards insular org?  Seems unlikely.  Being an incompetent sycophant seems like an org requirement. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

You're confusing my words regarding Reinsdorf as a reprieve for Hahn.  That couldn't be further from the truth.

That said, we don't know what guarantees were made behind closed doors.  Hahn was awfully boisterous in 2019 about spending the money.  He said we'd be major players on the FA market.  He pitched both Machado and Harper (and Harper said it was close).  Somewhere along the way, Jerry very clearly told him he'd have money to spend.  Ultimately, when it came time to turn talk into action, Jerry went full Jerry and went cheap.  Of course, all this  doesn't even get into Hahn's legs being cut right out from under him in the middle of the rebuild when Jerry brought in TLR.

Hahn's performance has been pretty damn bad.  By the same token, outside of a few incredibly impressive Houdini acts, name me a GM who has established success when they're unable to sign a contract for greater total value than $75M in the year 2023.   Unless you have both a primo minor league system and scouting department, a GM must make things work via the FA or trade market.  AKA..spend money.   Again, who are the types of players you're going to sign for <$75M total value?  Retreads, prove-it deals, players on the backsides of their careers, relief pitchers and mediocre players.  That's it.  You CANNOT build a winning team/culture with these sorts of limitations, an underfunded farm system, and a woeful scouting department that's made up of Jerry's buddies who you do not have the power to fire.  

  

 

We're acting like it's virtually impossible to win a division where we start off with a $75-125 million head start over the other four mid to small market teams each and every year. 

Ridiculous. 

World Series winner...that pipe dream is long out the window, but absolutely zero reason they can't average making the playoffs once every 3-4 years with all their built-in market advantages. 

 

[WBWSF]

I've always found it interesting that JR fired Larry Himes after Himes was successful here as the White Sox GM. Yet  he has  kept  Hahn  on as the GM  all these years. Can anybody  really say that Hahn has been a better GM than Hines was?

[caulfield12]

Rick Hahn could have surely had a playoff team if JR just gave him another $25-50 million to spend aka waste/misallocate. 

We are the king of being exploited by market inefficiencies... like the bullpen, analytics, player health, a plethora of one dimensional players when more athleticism is obviously required under the new rules that have seemingly blindsided the organization. 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I've always found it interesting that JR fired Larry Himes after Himes was successful here as the White Sox GM. Yet  he has  kept  Hahn  on as the GM  all these years. Can anybody  really say that Hahn has been a better GM than Hines was?

Himes was the master of the draft but not a yes man or ass kisser.  That was enough to doom him. 

[WBWSF]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Himes was the master of the draft but not a yes man or ass kisser.  That was enough to doom him. 

It was bad enough that JR fired Himes but I will never forget how JR went all over the media badmouthing Himes after he fired him.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

It was bad enough that JR fired Himes but I will never forget how JR went all over the media badmouthing Himes after he fired him

JR was extremely fortunate not to  get stuck holding the bag with the Albert Belle deal...if Baltimore/Angelos hadn't bailed him out, God knows if they even would have won it all in 2005.   

Dodged a massive bullet in the process of making the point to fellow owners about runaway FA spending. 

[Tony]

29 minutes ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

You're confusing my words regarding Reinsdorf as a reprieve for Hahn.  That couldn't be further from the truth.

That said, we don't know what guarantees were made behind closed doors.  Hahn was awfully boisterous in 2019 about spending the money.  He said we'd be major players on the FA market.  He pitched both Machado and Harper (and Harper said it was close).  Somewhere along the way, Jerry very clearly told him he'd have money to spend.  Ultimately, when it came time to turn talk into action, Jerry went full Jerry and went cheap.  Of course, all this  doesn't even get into Hahn's legs being cut right out from under him in the middle of the rebuild when Jerry brought in TLR.

Hahn's performance has been pretty damn bad.  By the same token, outside of a few incredibly impressive Houdini acts, name me a GM who has established success when they're unable to sign a contract for greater total value than $75M in the year 2023.   Unless you have both a primo minor league system and scouting department, a GM must make things work via the FA or trade market.  AKA..spend money.   Again, who are the types of players you're going to sign for <$75M total value?  Retreads, prove-it deals, players on the backsides of their careers, relief pitchers and mediocre players.  That's it.  You CANNOT build a winning team/culture with these sorts of limitations, an underfunded farm system, and a woeful scouting department that's made up of Jerry's buddies who you do not have the power to fire.  

  

 

How involved do you think Jerry is in the hiring and decision of the scouting and minor league operations staff? That falls under Williams and Hahn. Neither one of us know the detailed inner workings of the Sox, but from a basic standpoint, all baseball operations fall under the President of Baseball Ops and General Manager. That's Kenny and Rick. 

Again, there are 100% limitations placed on Rick when signing top dollar talent. My point is, there are plenty of teams that face those issues and seem to figure out solutions. The Sox have the most expensive bullpen in the majors. Maybe take 10 million of that and put it into the minor league development staff? 

I'm just not going to accept any sort of excuses for Rick. And if it was truly as bad as you are making it, he isn't an indentured servant. If it's that bad...leave. He hasn't. 

 

[baseball_gal_aly]

4 minutes ago, Tony said:

How involved do you think Jerry is in the hiring and decision of the scouting and minor league operations staff? That falls under Williams and Hahn. Neither one of us know the detailed inner workings of the Sox, but from a basic standpoint, all baseball operations fall under the President of Baseball Ops and General Manager. That's Kenny and Rick. 

Again, there are 100% limitations placed on Rick when signing top dollar talent. My point is, there are plenty of teams that face those issues and seem to figure out solutions. The Sox have the most expensive bullpen in the majors. Maybe take 10 million of that and put it into the minor league development staff? 

I'm just not going to accept any sort of excuses for Rick. And if it was truly as bad as you are making it, he isn't an indentured servant. If it's that bad...leave. He hasn't. 

 

@Y2Jimmy0 said in another thread that Jerry has a mandate that they're not allowed to draft HS players in the top 10. 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by baseballgalaly

[South Side Hit Men]

I'm impressed the Sox only had four under .500 records in April over their first three decades, three of the four after Commissioner KKK Landis nuked their core team.

The White Sox will need to win their next eight games to avoid this fate in 2023.

Forty Chicago White Sox Teams finishing under .500 through April 30:

33 Losing Seasons resulting in 17 Years of Field Manager(s) changes & 3 GM Changes.

33 Losing Season Breakout:

1. 0 Hank Greenberg (3 Total Seasons 1959-1961)
2. 0 Charles Comiskey II / John Rigney (3 Total Seasons 1956-1958)
3. 1 Charles Comiskey I (14 total Seasons 1901-1914)
4. 1 Kenny Williams (12 Total Seasons 2001-2012)
5. 1 Frank Lane (7 Total Seasons 1949-1955)
6. 1 Hawk Harrelson (1 Season 1986)
7. 2 Ed Short (9 Total Seasons 1962-1970)
8. 2 Larry Himes (4 Total Seasons 1987-1990)
9. 2 Leslie O'Connor (3 Total Seasons 1946-1948)
10. 3 Ron Schueler (10 Total Seasons 1991-2000)
11. 6 Rick Hahn (10 Total Seasons 2013-2022) - Will be 7 out of 11 and dead last with one more April loss.
12. 7 Harry Grabiner (31 Total Seasons 1915-1945)
13. 7 Roland Hemond (15 Total Seasons 1971-1985) - 1983 AL Best Record Season

Record / Year / (Final Record and AL Finish) General Manager (* - Field Manager(s) change mid/post season)

• .143 (2-12) 1968 (67-95 8th/10) Ed Short (1) *
• .182 (2-9) 1923 (69-85-2 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (1) *
• .200 (3-12) 1942 (66-82 6th/8) Harry Grabiner (2)
• .200 (1-4) 1995 (68-76-1 9th/14) Ron Schueler (1) *
• .200 (1-4) 1943 (82-72-1 4th/8) Harry Grabiner (X)
• .250 (3-9) 1958 (82-72-1 2nd/8) CC II / JR (X) Bill Veeck purchased team before 1959
• .300 (3-7) 1940 (82-72-1 4th/8) Harry Grabiner (X)
• .308 (8-18) 2018 (62-100 13th/15) Rick Hahn (1)
• .313 (5-11) 1932 (49-102-1 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (3)
• .320 (8-17) 1997 (80-81 6th/14) Ron Schueler (2) *
• .333 (2-4) 1950 (60-94-2 6th/8) Frank Lane (1) *
• .333 (3-6) 1944 (71-83 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (4)
• .333 (3-6) 1948 (51-101-2 8th/8) Leslie O'Connor (1) * Leslie O'Connor also gone
• .333 (4-8) 1936 (81-70-2 4th/8)  Harry Grabiner (X)
• .333 (6-12) 1978 (71-90 10th/14) Roland Hemond (1) *
• .333 (6-12) 1987 (77-85 10th/14) Larry Himes (1)
• .333 (8-16) 1989 (69-92 13th/14)  Larry Himes (2)
• .348 (8-15) 2001 (83-79 6th/14) Kenny Williams (X)
• .350 (7-13) 1975 (75-86 9th/12) Roland Hemond (2) *
• .357 (10-18) 2011 (79-83 9th/14) Kenny Williams (1) *
• .368 (7-12) 1970 (56-106 12th/12) Ed Short (2) * Ed Short also gone
• .368 (7-12) 1986 (72-90 12th/14) Hawk Harrelson (1) * Hawk Harrelson also gone
• .381 (8-13) 1984 (74-88 T-11th/14) Roland Hemond (3)
• .381 (8-13) 1971 (79-83 7th/12) Roland Hemond (4)
• .385 (5-8) 1946 (74-80-1 5th/8) Leslie O'Connor (2) *
• .391 (9-14) 2010 (88-74 6th/14) Kenny Williams (X) 
• .400 (4-6) 1921 (62-92 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (5)
• .400 (4-6) 1934 (53-99-1 8th/8) Harry Grabiner (6) *
• .400 (8-12) 2022 (81-81 8th/15) - Rick Hahn (2) *
• .400 (10-15) 2013 (63-99 14th/15) Rick Hahn (3)
• .400 (10-15) 1998 (80-82-1 7th/14) Ron Schueler (3)
• .412 (7-10) 1928 (72-82-1 5th/8) Harry Grabiner (7) *
• .417 (5-7) 1976 (64-97 12th/12) Roland Hemond (5) *
• .421 (8-11) 2015 (76-86 T-12th/15) Rick Hahn (4)
• .421 (8-11) 1974 (80-80-3 7th/12) Roland Hemond (6)
• .444 (4-5) 1910 (68-85-3 6th/8) Charles Comiskey I (1)
• .444 (8-10) 1983 (99-63 1st/14) Roland Hemond (X)
• .450 (9-11) 1979 (73-87 11th/14) Roland Hemond (7) *
• .462 (12-14) 2019 (72-89 9th/15) Rick Hahn (5)
• .483 (14-15) 2014 (73-89 11th/15) Rick Hahn (6)

[Dick Allen]

Who in the AL Central has any less constraints than Hahn? Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland have won the division how many times? KC was in the WS twice. If he was in the AL East, it may be a point, but he just sucks. Always has, always will.

[Tony]

11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Who in the AL Central has any less constraints than Hahn? Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland have won the division how many times? KC was in the WS twice. If he was in the AL East, it may be a point, but he just sucks. Always has, always will.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

It was bad enough that JR fired Himes but I will never forget how JR went all over the media badmouthing Himes after he fired him.

September 15, 1990 - Owner Jerry Reinsdorf fired G.M. Larry Himes citing ‘personality differences.’ Himes drafted and signed Sox future stars like Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez. During the press conference announcing the hiring of Ron Schueler as new G.M., Reinsdorf issued his famous ‘Point A to point B to point C’ comment. Later in a rare radio appearance he was candid on the subject to host Chet Coppock. “The fact is Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.”

[Tony]

It doesn't have to be like this. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

It doesn't have to be like this. 

It doesn't but when you have the owners Chicago's teams have, what you see is what you get, has been that way for decades. 

[TheBooneLoganEra]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I'm impressed the Sox only had four under .500 records in April over their first three decades, three of the four after Commissioner KKK Landis nuked their core team.

The White Sox will need to win their next eight games to avoid this fate in 2023.

Forty Chicago White Sox Teams finishing under .500 through April 30:

33 Losing Seasons resulting in 17 Years of Field Manager(s) changes & 3 GM Changes.

33 Losing Season Breakout:

1. 0 Hank Greenberg (3 Total Seasons 1959-1961)
2. 0 Charles Comiskey II / John Rigney (3 Total Seasons 1956-1958)
3. 1 Charles Comiskey I (14 total Seasons 1901-1914)
4. 1 Kenny Williams (12 Total Seasons 2001-2012)
5. 1 Frank Lane (7 Total Seasons 1949-1955)
6. 1 Hawk Harrelson (1 Season 1986)
7. 2 Ed Short (9 Total Seasons 1962-1970)
8. 2 Larry Himes (4 Total Seasons 1987-1990)
9. 2 Leslie O'Connor (3 Total Seasons 1946-1948)
10. 3 Ron Schueler (10 Total Seasons 1991-2000)
11. 6 Rick Hahn (10 Total Seasons 2013-2022) - Will be 7 out of 11 and dead last with one more April loss.
12. 7 Harry Grabiner (31 Total Seasons 1915-1945)
13. 7 Roland Hemond (15 Total Seasons 1971-1985) - 1983 AL Best Record Season

Record / Year / (Final Record and AL Finish) General Manager (* - Field Manager(s) change mid/post season)

• .143 (2-12) 1968 (67-95 8th/10) Ed Short (1) *
• .182 (2-9) 1923 (69-85-2 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (1) *
• .200 (3-12) 1942 (66-82 6th/8) Harry Grabiner (2)
• .200 (1-4) 1995 (68-76-1 9th/14) Ron Schueler (1) *
• .200 (1-4) 1943 (82-72-1 4th/8) Harry Grabiner (X)
• .250 (3-9) 1958 (82-72-1 2nd/8) CC II / JR (X) Bill Veeck purchased team before 1959
• .300 (3-7) 1940 (82-72-1 4th/8) Harry Grabiner (X)
• .308 (8-18) 2018 (62-100 13th/15) Rick Hahn (1)
• .313 (5-11) 1932 (49-102-1 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (3)
• .320 (8-17) 1997 (80-81 6th/14) Ron Schueler (2) *
• .333 (2-4) 1950 (60-94-2 6th/8) Frank Lane (1) *
• .333 (3-6) 1944 (71-83 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (4)
• .333 (3-6) 1948 (51-101-2 8th/8) Leslie O'Connor (1) * Leslie O'Connor also gone
• .333 (4-8) 1936 (81-70-2 4th/8)  Harry Grabiner (X)
• .333 (6-12) 1978 (71-90 10th/14) Roland Hemond (1) *
• .333 (6-12) 1987 (77-85 10th/14) Larry Himes (1)
• .333 (8-16) 1989 (69-92 13th/14)  Larry Himes (2)
• .348 (8-15) 2001 (83-79 6th/14) Kenny Williams (X)
• .350 (7-13) 1975 (75-86 9th/12) Roland Hemond (2) *
• .357 (10-18) 2011 (79-83 9th/14) Kenny Williams (1) *
• .368 (7-12) 1970 (56-106 12th/12) Ed Short (2) * Ed Short also gone
• .368 (7-12) 1986 (72-90 12th/14) Hawk Harrelson (1) * Hawk Harrelson also gone
• .381 (8-13) 1984 (74-88 T-11th/14) Roland Hemond (3)
• .381 (8-13) 1971 (79-83 7th/12) Roland Hemond (4)
• .385 (5-8) 1946 (74-80-1 5th/8) Leslie O'Connor (2) *
• .391 (9-14) 2010 (88-74 6th/14) Kenny Williams (X) 
• .400 (4-6) 1921 (62-92 7th/8) Harry Grabiner (5)
• .400 (4-6) 1934 (53-99-1 8th/8) Harry Grabiner (6) *
• .400 (8-12) 2022 (81-81 8th/15) - Rick Hahn (2) *
• .400 (10-15) 2013 (63-99 14th/15) Rick Hahn (3)
• .400 (10-15) 1998 (80-82-1 7th/14) Ron Schueler (3)
• .412 (7-10) 1928 (72-82-1 5th/8) Harry Grabiner (7) *
• .417 (5-7) 1976 (64-97 12th/12) Roland Hemond (5) *
• .421 (8-11) 2015 (76-86 T-12th/15) Rick Hahn (4)
• .421 (8-11) 1974 (80-80-3 7th/12) Roland Hemond (6)
• .444 (4-5) 1910 (68-85-3 6th/8) Charles Comiskey I (1)
• .444 (8-10) 1983 (99-63 1st/14) Roland Hemond (X)
• .450 (9-11) 1979 (73-87 11th/14) Roland Hemond (7) *
• .462 (12-14) 2019 (72-89 9th/15) Rick Hahn (5)
• .483 (14-15) 2014 (73-89 11th/15) Rick Hahn (6)

Thank you for this. There is no hope.

[baseball_gal_aly]

53 minutes ago, Tony said:

Detroit, Cleveland and Minnesota have signed 9 figure contracts. The Sox haven't

Also Detroit before Mike Illitch died had a lot fewer constraints. 

[chitownsportsfan]

2 hours ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

You're confusing my words regarding Reinsdorf as a reprieve for Hahn.  That couldn't be further from the truth.

That said, we don't know what guarantees were made behind closed doors.  Hahn was awfully boisterous in 2019 about spending the money.  He said we'd be major players on the FA market.  He pitched both Machado and Harper (and Harper said it was close).  Somewhere along the way, Jerry very clearly told him he'd have money to spend.  Ultimately, when it came time to turn talk into action, Jerry went full Jerry and went cheap.  Of course, all this  doesn't even get into Hahn's legs being cut right out from under him in the middle of the rebuild when Jerry brought in TLR.

Hahn's performance has been pretty damn bad.  By the same token, outside of a few incredibly impressive Houdini acts, name me a GM who has established success when they're unable to sign a contract for greater total value than $75M in the year 2023.   Unless you have both a primo minor league system and scouting department, a GM must make things work via the FA or trade market.  AKA..spend money.   Again, who are the types of players you're going to sign for <$75M total value?  Retreads, prove-it deals, players on the backsides of their careers, relief pitchers and mediocre players.  That's it.  You CANNOT build a winning team/culture with these sorts of limitations, an underfunded farm system, and a woeful scouting department that's made up of Jerry's buddies who you do not have the power to fire.  

  

 

Good lord. I was with you a couple pages ago but as I've said a million times: Hahn works at the pleasure of Jerry. He knows Jerry's ways. If he wasn't seeing his "vision" realized he could quit. But he hasn't, because when he does, he'll never be a GM again in MLB.

[caulfield12]

24 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said:

Detroit, Cleveland and Minnesota have signed 9 figure contracts. The Sox haven't

Also Detroit before Mike Illitch died had a lot fewer constraints. 

Including a better offer on the table for Miguel Cabrera than the Sox could put together at the time... but his son hasn't been nearly as loose with the purse strings. 

A Baez here... an Eduardo Rodriguez there,  but mostly draft emphasis.

Pitching injuries in the starting rotation have crippled their rebuild.  Mize Skubal Manning etc. 

[caulfield12]

14 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Good lord. I was with you a couple pages ago but as I've said a million times: Hahn works at the pleasure of Jerry. He knows Jerry's ways. If he wasn't seeing his "vision" realized he could quit. But he hasn't, because when he does, he'll never be a GM again in MLB.

Now Hahn can simply hide behind TLR and injuries...that he wasn't allowed to make any decisions for two years until Benintendi and Clevinger were signed as FAs... Kimbrel wasn't actually his idea, along with the likes of Kelly and Leury, etc. 

And the wheels of avoiding any genuine sense of responsibility or accountability just keep spinning round and round... 

Edited April 24, 2023 by caulfield12

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, mmmmmbeeer said:

Hahn's performance has been pretty damn bad.  By the same token, outside of a few incredibly impressive Houdini acts, name me a GM who has established success when they're unable to sign a contract for greater total value than $75M in the year 2023.  Unless you have both a primo minor league system and scouting department, a GM must make things work via the FA or trade market.  AKA..spend money.  Again, who are the types of players you're going to sign for <$75M total value?  

The premise that teams cannot win with a max contract player beneath the Sox is false. The premise is also false when you are comparing low payroll teams. The higher percentage max players make up of your payroll, the lower ability you have to build a remaining 25 man roster. The 2005 Chicago White Sox won precisely because Kenny assembled over a dozen quality low priced veterans. He would not have that flexibility if 25-33% + of his team was anchored by one or two high priced stars.

This isn't the NBA. The Sox were constrained with the "Elite" signings of Keuchel and Grandal during their "Multi-Championship Window". WTF would this team look like if they had either Harper or Manchado but $20M less to spend on all of their other holes, let alone the holes they never fill year in and year out (2B, RF, SP Depth). The Sox suck because Hahn is pathetic at player acquisitions beyond what Marco Paddy delivers, including free agent signings, and drafting. He cannot properly construct a playable roster that can field baseballs. The team's player development (Majors and Minors) he has overseen for the past decade is also pathetic. His one shining moment was signing and flipping Adam Eaton. That is it. Anything else was based on selling Sale and Quintana inherited from Kenny. Even these gains were majorly depleted net net when you consider the top players pawned off to get James Shields, Jeff Samardzija and Michael F'ing Ynoa.

There have been fourteen teams that won a World Series or Pennant with the equivalent White Sox Payroll since Kenny Williams replaced Ron Schueler. There have also been nine teams with a player under the equivalent Max Current/Prior White Sox contract since Kenny Williams was hired, including Kenny Williams' 2005 Chicago White Sox. Three of these teams did so in Rick Hahn's division with Rick Hahn as GM. They are the teams and GMs that do their job. Rick Hahn must be the other guy,

2001 - 2022 World Series and League Pennant Winners - Contemporary Max Individual White Sox Contract > WS / Pennant Team:

White Sox Max Total Contract Benchmarks:

1. $55M 2001 - 2005 (Albert Belle 1997 - 2001)
2. $60M 2006 - 2019 (Paul Konerko 2006 - 2010)
3. $73M 2020 - 2022 (Yasmani Grandal 2020 - 2023)

• 2020 AL Tampa Bay Rays $53.5M Kevin Kiermaier
• 2016 AL Cleveland Guardians $52.5M Jason Kipnis
• 2015 WS Kansas City Royals $37.5M Alex Gordon
• 2014 AL Kansas City Royals $37.5M Alex Gordon
• 2008 AL Tampa Bay Rays $24.1M Carlos Pena
• 2005 WS Chicago White Sox $27.0M Freddy Garcia
• 2003 WS Miami Marlins $10.0M Ivan Rodriguez
• 2002 WS Los Angeles Angels $40.0M Tim Salmon
• 2001 WS Arizona Diamondbacks $52.4M  Randy Johnson

2001 - 2022 World Series and League Pennant Winners - Under White Sox Payroll:

• 2022 WS Houston Astros $187.5M (9th) vs. Chicago White Sox $193.4M (7th)
• 2020 AL Tampa Bay Rays $29.4M (28th) vs. Chicago White Sox $52.6M (20th)
• 2016 AL Cleveland Guardians $100.4M (22nd) vs. Chicago White Sox $124.4M (16th)
• 2015 NL New York Mets $109.8M (19th) vs. Chicago White Sox $120.4M (16th) 
• 2011 WS Saint Louis Cardinals $113.2M (11th) vs. Chicago White Sox $125.8M (7th)
• 2011 AL Texas Rangers $104.0M (13th) vs. Chicago White Sox $125.8M (7th)
• 2010 WS San Francisco Giants $101.4M (11th) vs. Chicago White Sox $112.2M (8th)
• 2010 AL Texas Rangers $74.3M (22nd) vs. Chicago White Sox $112.2M (8th)
• 2008 WS Philadelphia Phillies $112.7M (10th) vs. Chicago White Sox $113.6M (9th)
• 2008 AL Tampa Bay Rays $51.0M (28th) vs. Chicago White Sox $113.6M (9th)
• 2007 NL Colorado Rockies $61.3M (26th) vs. Chicago White Sox $100.2M (10th)
• 2006 WS Saint Louis Cardinals $96.1M (10th) vs. Chicago White Sox $96.3M (9th)
• 2006 AL Detroit Tigers $89.8M (14th) vs. Chicago White Sox $96.3M (9th)
• 2003 WS Miami Marlins $63.3M (20th) vs. Chicago White Sox $71.3M (17th)

Source: Cot's Contracts - Year End 40 Man Totals and Spotrac

Edited April 24, 2023 by South Side Hit Men

[ron883]

10 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The premise that teams cannot win with a max contract player beneath the Sox is false. The premise is also false when you are comparing low payroll teams. The higher percentage max players make up of your payroll, the lower ability you have to build a remaining 25 man roster. The 2005 Chicago White Sox won precisely because Kenny assembled over a dozen quality low priced veterans. He would not have that flexibility if 25-33% + of his team was anchored by one or two high priced stars.

This isn't the NBA. The Sox were constrained with the "Elite" signings beyond Keuchel and Grandal during their "Multi-Championship Window". WTF would this team look like if they had either Harper or Manchado but $20M less to spend on all of their other holes, let alone the holes they never fill year in and year out (2B, RF, SP Depth). The Sox suck because Hahn is pathetic at all player acquisitions beyond what Marco Paddy delivers, and his free agent signings, player development, player draft and farm system he overseen for the past decade is also pathetic.

There have been fourteen teams that won a World Series or Pennant with the equivalent White Sox Payroll since Kenny Williams replaced Ron Schueler. There have also been nine teams with a player under the equivalent Max Current/Prior White Sox contract since Kenny Williams was hired, including Kenny Williams' 2005 Chicago White Sox. Three of these teams did so in Rick Hahn's division with Rick Hahn as GM. They are the teams and GMs that do their job. Rick Hahn must be the other guy,

2001 - 2022 World Series and League Pennant Winners - Contemporary Max Individual White Sox Contract > WS / Pennant Team:

White Sox Max Total Contract Benchmarks:

1. $55M 2001 - 2005 (Albert Belle 1997 - 2001)
2. $60M 2006 - 2019 (Paul Konerko 2006 - 2010)
3. $73M 2020 - 2022 (Yasmani Grandal 2020 - 2023)

• 2020 AL Tampa Bay Rays $53.5M Kevin Kiermaier
• 2016 AL Cleveland Guardians $52.5M Jason Kipnis
• 2015 WS Kansas City Royals $37.5M Alex Gordon
• 2014 AL Kansas City Royals $37.5M Alex Gordon
• 2008 AL Tampa Bay Rays $24.1M Carlos Pena
• 2005 WS Chicago White Sox $27.0M Freddy Garcia
• 2003 WS Miami Marlins $10.0M Ivan Rodriguez
• 2002 WS Los Angeles Angels $40.0M Tim Salmon
• 2001 WS Arizona Diamondbacks $52.4M  Randy Johnson

2001 - 2022 World Series and League Pennant Winners - Under White Sox Payroll:

• 2022 WS Houston Astros $187.5M (9th) vs. Chicago White Sox $193.4M (7th)
• 2020 AL Tampa Bay Rays $29.4M (28th) vs. Chicago White Sox $52.6M (20th)
• 2016 AL Cleveland Guardians $100.4M (22nd) vs. Chicago White Sox $124.4M (16th)
• 2015 NL New York Mets $109.8M (19th) vs. Chicago White Sox $120.4M (16th) 
• 2011 WS Saint Louis Cardinals $113.2M (11th) vs. Chicago White Sox $125.8M (7th)
• 2011 AL Texas Rangers $104.0M (13th) vs. Chicago White Sox $125.8M (7th)
• 2010 WS San Francisco Giants $101.4M (11th) vs. Chicago White Sox $112.2M (8th)
• 2010 AL Texas Rangers $74.3M (22nd) vs. Chicago White Sox $112.2M (8th)
• 2008 WS Philadelphia Phillies $112.7M (10th) vs. Chicago White Sox $113.6M (9th)
• 2008 AL Tampa Bay Rays $51.0M (28th) vs. Chicago White Sox $113.6M (9th)
• 2007 NL Colorado Rockies $61.3M (26th) vs. Chicago White Sox $100.2M (10th)
• 2006 WS Saint Louis Cardinals $96.1M (10th) vs. Chicago White Sox $96.3M (9th)
• 2006 AL Detroit Tigers $89.8M (14th) vs. Chicago White Sox $96.3M (9th)
• 2003 WS Miami Marlins $63.3M (20th) vs. Chicago White Sox $63.3M (17th)

Source: Cot's Contracts - Year End 40 Man Totals and Spotrac

Give this man a like for his formatting! Beautiful as usual. 

[4uckOffCommieScum]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

JR was extremely fortunate not to  get stuck holding the bag with the Albert Belle deal...if Baltimore/Angelos hadn't bailed him out, God knows if they even would have won it all in 2005.   

Dodged a massive bullet in the process of making the point to fellow owners about runaway FA spending. 

Baltimore did no such thing. Belle opted out of his contract with three years remaining to become a free agent then signed with Baltimore, putting up an .882 ops with the O’s

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Baltimore did no such thing. Belle opted out of his contract with three years remaining to become a free agent then signed with Baltimore, putting up an .882 ops with the O’s

But what happened after that solid but not as dominating  season? 

He became an albatross contract that was essentially unmoveable. 

JR was trying to make a political point to owners but didn't necessarily want Belle on the team long-term.  He wasn't a marketing star because of his prickly personality and past run ins with fans dating back to LSU.

Robin Ventura would depart for the Mets the subsequent season... White Flag year, etc.