Old Sock Drawer, ex Sox player discussion

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Or put another way, Gravemen and Kelly are almost equal to one Rodon both in annual salary and total salary. A little cheaper for those two per season than Rodon so maybe you add Velazquez to this season as well.

Kopech replaced Rodon in the rotation so they had a void in the bullpen since Kopech vacated his spot to join the rotation. Graveman fills that Kopech bullpen role. Only need 4 starters in the playoffs.

Are the Sox better off with Lynn, Gio, Cease, Rodon in the rotation and Kopech and ? in the pen like last season come playoff time? Or Lynn, Gio, Cease, Kopech in the rotation and Gravemen and Kelly in the pen? I’m not sure but I’d probably take the latter personally.

Kopech doesn't have the base/foundation to go all season long every 5th/6th day...so what are you planning to do to make sure he's available for October, assuming we get that far...?

Rodon does have that baseline established.  If I had to make a bet today, it would be on Rodon being more likely to be available for the post-season than Kopech, unless they come up with a dramatically-revised plan to get quality starts in the first half BUT NOT PITCH KOPECH somehow.

 

[caulfield12]

And even if you think Rodon wasn't feasible, FOR WHATEVER REASON, what's the argument about not being able to beat SD's #12 and #28 prospects for Sean Manaea?

That the only prospect the A's really wanted was Vaughn...and that they weren't willing to accept something like Colton/Burger/Sheets (pick 2 of 3)?

Pretty sad indictment of either our farm system or discernment about reasonable player values.

[Flash]

9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It's ok I've been ranting since they didn't extend the QO and ranted some more when the Giants signed him and continue to rant when he has a 1.06 ERA through 3 starts And I'll continue to rant until(if) he has arm troubles. Then everyone can rant at me !

Very frustrating indeed. Sox made a bet on Carlos' arm health and so far its been a bad bet...almost unconscionable. One can easily argue Rodon is the best LH pitcher in baseball and certainly among the best w/either hand. Sure would look good on the mound for the Sox about now and we intentionally took a pass. Not what winners do. 

[CentralChamps21]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

No, but that "allocated" $16 million was used as an excuse for not making any significant pitching moves...other than Velasquez's $3 million.

There were 15-20 legit options out there, even after Rodon.   We watched as they all disappeared from the board one by

 

Soxtalk said that was an excuse. Never heard anyone from the Sox org say it.

[Balta1701]

6 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Or put another way, Gravemen and Kelly are almost equal to one Rodon both in annual salary and total salary. A little cheaper for those two per season than Rodon so maybe you add Velazquez to this season as well.

Kopech replaced Rodon in the rotation so they had a void in the bullpen since Kopech vacated his spot to join the rotation. Graveman fills that Kopech bullpen role. Only need 4 starters in the playoffs.

Are the Sox better off with Lynn, Gio, Cease, Rodon in the rotation and Kopech and ? in the pen like last season come playoff time? Or Lynn, Gio, Cease, Kopech in the rotation and Gravemen and Kelly in the pen? I’m not sure but I’d probably take the latter personally.

I think pretty much everyone at the start of the offseason understood that “a bullpen arm to replace Tepera” was a solid need that couldn’t be ignored. Graveman is off to a solid start in that role, so right now that decision seems hard to question.  Even though a few guys are off to decent starts, which out of Ruiz, Bummer, Foster, or Sousa do you want as your close game 8th inning guy? If the White Sox didn’t sign a guy like that they’d already be looking to trade for one after Bummer’s iffy start.

[Balta1701]

6 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yikes. Wonder if he holds up into this fall putting in that type of workload (if it continues). We’ll see!

Ok he’s officially 5th in pitches thrown a guy from the Marlins also passed him narrowly yesterday.

https://www.teamrankings.com/mlb/player-stat/pitches-thrown 

[caulfield12]

57 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Soxtalk said that was an excuse. Never heard anyone from the Sox org say it.

No team can actually say it too directly…they have to use vague euphemisms about finding better values on the market, conserving resources, etc.

The Twins knew they had an issue clearly and added both Paddack and Archer to shore up their existing rotation which was headlined by a rookie in Ryan.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

9 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Let’s not forget he had a 0.72 ERA in April for the Sox last season. As I’ve said before with Rodon, it’s not what you do for me in April, it’s what you do for me late in the season and playoffs. Giants not exactly easing him in either. Already 274 pitches in 3 games after a shortened spring training.  Let’s see where he’s at in another 5 months.

ANd lets not forget he had hardly pitched in 2 years and when you pitch 150 innings like he did in 2021 you are more likely to pitch longer in 2022 .

I still don't get your aversion to having a great pitcher on your team during the regular season. It's like you want a bad Keuchel , Velasquez, Lambert and Cueto  starting games.

You could say that BS about" it's what you do for me late in the season" for any pitcher. No pitcher in April comes with a guarantee that says " will be healthy for the playoffs".

You act as if the playoffs are guaranteed . Are you that spoiled already by 2 playoff seasons in a row that you now take making the playoffs for granted  no matter who the Sox throw out on the mound and the field ?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 hours ago, Tony said:

But those of course aren’t the only options. What about not giving Leury Garcia 15 million dollars? That’s always an option…you know, not to do that. 
 

It’s amazing the water some will carry for this organization. Let’s say Rodon makes the All-Star game this year, the second year in a row. This would be after putting up a 5 WAR season for the Sox in 2021, and doing it in his late 20’s mind you. They let him walk away and got NOTHING in return. Zero. Meanwhile, it’s April 21st and there is serious discussion taking place about Tanner Banks having a spot in this rotation, and the Sox have already had starts from Vince Velazquez and Jimmy Lambert.

Come on…

Guys from 2021 playoff roster no longer on the team:

Rodon, Tepera, Cesar, Kimbrel, Hamilton, Collins

new guys this year:

Gravemen, Kelly, Harrison, Velasquez, Cueto, Pollock, McGuire

Gravemen/Kelly replace Kimbrel/Tepera, Harrison replaces Cesar, Velasquez/Cueto replace Rodon, McGuire replaces Collins, Pollock replaces Hamilton (?)

overall, a wash to me. Bottom line, need the core players that were already here to produce. Also, don’t discount the possibility of trade deadline deals. Tepera was a great pickup last year, Cesar and Kimbrel not so much. Hopefully they do better on those deals this July.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

18 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

ANd lets not forget he had hardly pitched in 2 years and when you pitch 150 innings like he did in 2021 you are more likely to pitch longer in 2022 .

I still don't get your aversion to having a great pitcher on your team during the regular season. It's like you want a bad Keuchel , Velasquez, Lambert and Cueto  starting games.

You could say that BS about" it's what you do for me late in the season" for any pitcher. No pitcher in April comes with a guarantee that says " will be healthy for the playoffs".

You act as if the playoffs are guaranteed . Are you that spoiled already by 2 playoff seasons in a row that you now take making the playoffs for granted  no matter who the Sox throw out on the mound and the field ?

Yes, I’m saying the Sox are a lock for the playoffs this season barring catastrophic injuries in which case not even Rodon would have made a difference.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Very frustrating indeed. Sox made a bet on Carlos' arm health and so far its been a bad bet...almost unconscionable. One can easily argue Rodon is the best LH pitcher in baseball and certainly among the best w/either hand. Sure would look good on the mound for the Sox about now and we intentionally took a pass. Not what winners do. 

And I didn't even mention I was ranting about the Sox abusing him all during the 2021 season too and predicted he'd be too tired to be effective in the playoffs.

I said his arm was fatigued when others said he was injured.  I've been right about everything related to Carlos Rodon going back to that thread I made sometime after the all star break with hundreds and hundreds of people saying trust the Sox, they know him best he shouldn't get a QO , they should never resign him, sign  or 3,4 or 5 arm ,any pitcher but not Rodon. You don't need to replace Rodon thats why Kopech is starting now.

It's like no one cares about having the best pitching possible during the season . ARe the guys who signed in the Rodon range all pitching like Rodon and are they all guaranteed to make the playoffs. ?

Let's keep track of starting pitchers signed this off season in the $12-$25M range for 1, 2 or 3 seasons and see where they all are in the playoffs or if they could even pitch their teams into the playoffs. Heck while we're at it lets even keep track of all the high priced guys who signed much higher deals, Scherzer, Ray, Gausman, Eduardo Rodriguez and see where they are late in the season or in the playoffs. A lot of teams this off season invested in  starting pitchers who cost then at least $10M for a season . Not only do the Sox not invest $20M/yr but not even $10M on a single starting pitcher. Some of these guys don't exactly look like the healthiest bunch either,.

Verlander 2yrs/$50M

Kershaw 1 yr./$17M

Stroman 3ys/$71M

Kikuchi 3yrs./$36

Jon Gray 4yrs/ $56M

Steven Matz 4yrs/$44M

Anthony DeSclafani 3yrs/$36

Syndergaard 1yr/$21M

 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

10 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And I didn't even mention I was ranting about the Sox abusing him all during the 2021 season too and predicted he'd be too tired to be effective in the playoffs.

I said his arm was fatigued when others said he was injured.  I've been right about everything related to Carlos Rodon going back to that thread I made sometime after the all star break with hundreds and hundreds of people saying trust the Sox, they know him best he shouldn't get a QO , they should never resign him, sign  or 3,4 or 5 arm ,any pitcher but not Rodon. You don't need to replace Rodon thats why Kopech is starting now.

It's like no one cares about having the best pitching possible during the season . ARe the guys who signed in the Rodon range all pitching like Rodon and are they all guaranteed to make the playoffs. ?

Let's keep track of starting pitchers signed this off season in the $12-$25M range for 1, 2 or 3 seasons and see where they all are in the playoffs or if they could even pitch their teams into the playoffs. Heck while we're at it lets even keep track of all the high priced guys who signed much higher deals, Scherzer, Ray, Gausman, Eduardo Rodriguez and see where they are late in the season or in the playoffs. A lot of teams this off season invested in  starting pitchers who cost then at least $10M for a season . Not only do the Sox not invest $20M/yr but not even $10M on a single starting pitcher. Some of these guys don't exactly look like the healthiest bunch either,.

Verlander 2yrs/$50M

Kershaw 1 yr./$17M

Stroman 3ys/$71M

Kikuchi 3yrs./$36

Jon Gray 4yrs/ $56M

Steven Matz 4yrs/$44M

Anthony DeSclafani 3yrs/$36

Syndergaard 1yr/$21M

 

 

Just simply throwing money at starting pitching in free agency isn’t a wise decision. Most of these guys will bust. Heck, the highest paid pitcher on the Sox signed a couple years ago in free agency is a guy that might be DFA’d this season. FA pitcher signings have a history of being very risky. Outside of the elite, most of their best seasons are prior to their free agency years.

[Tony]

28 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Guys from 2021 playoff roster no longer on the team:

Rodon, Tepera, Cesar, Kimbrel, Hamilton, Collins

new guys this year:

Gravemen, Kelly, Harrison, Velasquez, Cueto, Pollock, McGuire

Gravemen/Kelly replace Kimbrel/Tepera, Harrison replaces Cesar, Velasquez/Cueto replace Rodon, McGuire replaces Collins, Pollock replaces Hamilton (?)

overall, a wash to me. Bottom line, need the core players that were already here to produce. Also, don’t discount the possibility of trade deadline deals. Tepera was a great pickup last year, Cesar and Kimbrel not so much. Hopefully they do better on those deals this July.

So if we go with that logic and say that's true, you admitting the White Sox, right in the heart of their contention window.....did nothing to improve the team in the offseason. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Just simply throwing money at starting pitching in free agency isn’t a wise decision. Most of these guys will bust. Heck, the highest paid pitcher on the Sox signed a couple years ago in free agency is a guy that might be DFA’d this season. FA pitcher signings have a history of being very risky. Outside of the elite, most of their best seasons are prior to their free agency years.

So then what's you solution for winning the World Series without investing in Starting pitching ? Is it to keep relying on who you have even if its getting older or too young to know if they can pitch a whole season and signing bargain bin guys like Velasquez and Cueto and hoping they all stay healthy too ?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

So if we go with that logic and say that's true, you admitting the White Sox, right in the heart of their contention window.....did nothing to improve the team in the offseason. 

Sure. But let me ask this..how often have the Astros improved on paper in the offseason during their contention window? Typically they’re losing guys like Springer, Correa, etc. to FA and not replacing them with splashy signings or trades. Or am I missing something?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So then what's you solution for winning the World Series without investing in Starting pitching ? Is it to keep relying on who you have even if its getting older or too young to know if they can pitch a whole season and signing bargain bin guys like Velasquez and Cueto and hoping they all stay healthy too ?

How have they not invested in starting pitching!?? They traded for 4/5 of the rotation (Gio, Lynn, Cease, Kopech) and then went free agency to sign the 5th (Keuchel). I think they’ve invested a lot of resources in starting pitching over the course of this rebuild. Just because your starting staff isn’t super expensive doesn’t mean you haven’t invested in it.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Sure. But let me ask this..how often have the Astros improved on paper in the offseason during their contention window? Typically they’re losing guys like Springer, Correa, etc. to FA and not replacing them with splashy signings or trades. Or am I missing something?

Michael Brantley, Justin Verlander, Zach Greinke come to mind.

They also supported those signings/trades through regular additions of minor leaguers after their first wave arrived, including Kyle Tucker, Yordan Alvarez, Jose Urquidy, Framber Valdez, Luis Garcia, and this year Jeremy Pena and Chas McCormick are off to solid starts for them.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Michael Brantley, Justin Verlander, Zach Greinke come to mind.

They also supported those signings/trades through regular additions of minor leaguers after their first wave arrived, including Kyle Tucker, Yordan Alvarez, Jose Urquidy, Framber Valdez, Luis Garcia, and this year Jeremy Pena and Chas McCormick are off to solid starts for them.

Huh? Weren’t Verlander and Greinke midseason trades? We’re talking about the offseason.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

And I wouldn’t consider Michael Brantley any more of a significant FA signing than someone like Grandal.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Point is, everyone complaining about the offseason hasn’t paid attention to what teams like the Astros do every offseason in the midst of their contention window. Which isn’t much.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Huh? Weren’t Verlander and Greinke midseason trades? We’re talking about the offseason.

Well Verlander was extended twice in the offseason, but one offseason one I forgot was Gerrit Cole.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Well Verlander was extended twice in the offseason, but one offseason one I forgot was Gerrit Cole.

Yes, I will give you Cole. That was their Lynn trade for sure.

[Balta1701]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Point is, everyone complaining about the offseason hasn’t paid attention to what teams like the Astros do every offseason in the midst of their contention window. Which isn’t much.

They regularly reinforce themselves from their minor leagues, and then selectively add to their big league roster. This is absolutely key. It is why they beat us last year. It's why their payroll hasn't had to get out of control to stay competitive - only 2020 did they have a higher (projected) CBT number than the White Sox this year. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

18 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

How have they not invested in starting pitching!?? They traded for 4/5 of the rotation (Gio, Lynn, Cease, Kopech) and then went free agency to sign the 5th (Keuchel). I think they’ve invested a lot of resources in starting pitching over the course of this rebuild. Just because your starting staff isn’t super expensive doesn’t mean you haven’t invested in it.

You seem to have trouble grasping what I mean by "investing" even though you saw what I posted about all the starting pitchers signed during the off season and all my posts about resigning Rodon. Are you intentionally being disingenuous ?

The Giolito, Kopech and Cease moves were start of the rebuild moves. Lynn was cheap when they traded for him for just 1 year and resigned him for 2yrs/$38M. Kopech, as good as he might be, is an infant in terms of starting pitching time. Big time teams with hopes of winning a World Series sign big time pitchers. Cubs did it with Lester and Astros  traded for Verlander. Keuchel was good for  the Covid season and has sucked since then.

Edited April 21, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Tony]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Point is, everyone complaining about the offseason hasn’t paid attention to what teams like the Astros do every offseason in the midst of their contention window. Which isn’t much.

Again, they are able to "not do much" because they have created a much better pipeline of internal talent, as Balta mentioned. 

You told us in another thread that the Astros "window" started in 2015. Fine, we can run with that. 

Internally, during their run, they've been able to add pieces like Yordan Alvarez, Kyle Tucker, Framber Valdez, etc. 

The Sox currently have the worst-ranked farm system by multiple publications. The cupboard is empty. 

Lastly, the Astros have actually won in the post-season. You get more rope when you actually produce. 

The Sox...have not.