Is the rebuild salvageable?

[TheFutureIsNear]

21 minutes ago, Chimpton said:

Vaughn is legit with the bat but he is not as an outfielder, and IF we keep Abreu he is unlikely to suddenly agree to DH which leaves a problem. And Eloy should really DH and not play LF as more than an occasional start. And that is without considering Burger and Sheets who are both really DH types as well. Unfortunately this squad has too many of these type of players, and to really open up the roster at least 2 if not 3 of them needs to be part of trades in order to bring in proper corner OF'er and a better 2B.

The pitching side of things as you say is probably ok as long as Lynn doesn't do a complete Keuchal and Giolito bounces back to somewhere near his best.

And as you say doing anything whilst keeping Hahn and TLR is just a waste of time.

I think that If they are both hitting we would be more than happy with a LF/DH split of Eloy and Vaughn. Robert (when not dizzy) is more than good enough to cover up for a slight liability in LF, just need to avoid Eloy and Vaughn in the same OF at all costs. Find the ever elusive (to the Sox) LH RF that can hit and field we’ll be more than fine. 

[fathom]

The Sox field a slow-pitch softball roster yet can’t hit homers.  It’s truly one of the dumber things I’ve seen.  I don’t know how any of this gets fixed.

[JoeBatadatz]

10 hours ago, T R U said:

This roster can’t and won’t win a championship. Way too many slow unathletic DH types also were out money to spend apparently. 
 

It would take quite the retooling to salvage the poor roster construction. 

 

9 hours ago, PorkChopExpress said:

It was over when they hired TLR. 

It's this simple.

[CentralChamps21]

Whether or not the rebuild is salvageable hinges on whether Eloy, Yoan, Luis, and to a lesser extent Yaz, can be healthier and more productive than they have been over the past year and a half.

If the training/coaching staff is what's holding them back, then making those changes can save this rebuild. If not, and these guys are damaged goods at this point, then this team is going to have a lot of money tied up in average hitters for quite a while.

[RJSox_22]

I vote yes , but will take some creativity in offseason by Hahn (or unlikely availability of a higher payroll) and of course the entire coaching staff needs to be replaced.   
 

It all looked so good in 2020
 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, ron883 said:

Pretty much everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong with this rebuild. The guys we extended are shit. Lots of Players are basically dead money.  Players are getting closer and closer to free agency. With the current assets on this team, and the realistic payroll constraints, do you see this team can turn it around in the near future to win a world series? 

I don't really think the Sox can win a championship without another rebuild. Hahn would need an absolutely magical offseason. It kind of feels like the rebuild was for nothing, which is depressing. 

I'm glad you asked this question. I want to say yes with all my heart. I'm in trade winds every day telling the Sox what to do to make things better. Of course I'm not the one trying to get good players for what little we have to offer.

I see a lot of posters here saying don't trade our wonderful farm pieces ,retool, reform, sell Abreu, sell Hendriks sell Graveman, sell Kelly. Create some payroll space and figure it out next year. So I assume all that selling of expensive assets and keeping minor leaguers has a final goal of salvaging the rebuild.

Of course the Sox might not be in this position had they learned how to scout,draft and develop and draft internationally like the rest of baseball does it. It would've been nice to do all that before the rebuild, which theoretically is what a rebuild should be, You can't rebuild with the same a*holes in charge and same organizational philosophies that screw up the team in the 1st place.

So basically a rebuild might not have ever worked with JR in charge because he saves money not going after 16 yr old Dominicans, trading off Intl.money. He won't pay for top personnel from other organizations and then he sticks his meddling nose in and hires TLR.

 So getting back to the original point I was making about people here wanting to retool . Why ???? What's the point ?? The same losers are in charge.

Now you might turn around and ask me if the same losers are in charge, why do you want to trust them to win this year when the team clearly has no chance to win a World Series this year? It's because I think it's over next year and beyond and this year is the last shot at it. Basically I think the Sox chance at a World Series win is 200-1 no matter what year it is. Might as well take your best shot every year with the same Bozos in charge every year.

Sure they won't do everything I want them to this year. And they won't do what all of you want them to do next year. They will just keep on doing what they have done under Reindsorf since he bought the team. They will do things his way and his employees will work for him knowing for the most part they do so under his guise with monetary restraints that are not conducive to winning but to making money for himself and his investors.  Nothing wrong with that right. It's the American Way  right ? Make money while pretending your product is something it isn't and never will be.

We are just the consumers buying what they are selling because we have traditions of buying them for generations. Relax treat them like any other product you are unhappy with with. Ignore them , don't invest emotionally in them . It's just sports , that's how they suck you in , It's regional, a home town product, have some pride in your location, be a part of something and join the community of fans and be a part of something bigger because deep down we all need to be a part of something communal that's bigger than ourselves. and we feel better in a big community so we don't think we're in some weirdo cult. But that's really what we are a weirdo cult of sports buying consumers controlled by the rich.

Maybe I shouldn't have watched "They Live" again recently !! ; )

 

[bmags]

42 minutes ago, fathom said:

The Sox field a slow-pitch softball roster yet can’t hit homers.  It’s truly one of the dumber things I’ve seen.  I don’t know how any of this gets fixed.

oh my god, this is exactly it. It's like Hahn had a dream of fielding a team of Billy Butlers.

I think it's just a repercussion of Hahn's whiz kids trying to recreate the Houston Astros low K rate, but trying to do it by signing Josh Harrisons and thus ending up as this groundball hitting machine team. But we all know, if there is a soxfest, and if hahn is there to speak, he will mention how they are top five in k rate.

But the other part of it is trying to get a team with more power they always go cheap and get "discounts" on older DH types. Their power diminishes along with their fielding, and we can't get rid of them. 

But, there is also a real PD/coaching issue with Eloy/Moncada/Vaughn/etc. These are guys that hit the shit out of the ball. They really should see if they can up the launch angle and get more power. TA can be TA.

but anyway this team sucks.

[The Kids Can Play]

It's not happening with this front office of KW and RH, along with the drunken' pathetic manager and his entire coaching staff. I am also pretty sure as long as JR owns the team and still needs to be in charge, as opposed to letting his son Michael or someone else take over, a championship is many years away and this rebuild has been officially derailed and a bonafide trainwreck. 

[bmags]

I think it was over the minute they lost out on Wheeler. Hahn pivots as well as a semi.

[Highland]

Looking at the team on paper, it would appear to be salvageable. But I don't think the organization can pull it off. Does it even want to pull it off? 

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

I’ve been as down on the FO as anyone over the last few years, but I don’t think the window is closed quite yet.

i do think the coaching staff has to change. Even if you’re a TLR defender still somehow, there needs to be a fresh vibe, if for no other reason than to signal to the players that dumb shit might stop happening (even if it probably won’t).

It’s insane that, as horribly as practically EVERYTHING has gone for the Sox this year (other than Cease), they’re only three games out of first. That’s why the window is still open. If even two or three of this seasons epic disappointments had just turned out like expected, the team would be in first even despite the terrible FO decisions.

There is still room for some thing to break the right way next year, even if the FO can’t be expected to make significant improvements.

This is the worst part of it all.  It would be so nice to bury this season, but because this division is SOOOO BAD, we can't.  There is still a chance, just by process of elimination.

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, A-Train to 35th said:

Perfect example is what TLR did and didn't do with Yermin.

1. He let him do whatever he wanted, chains hanging outside of uniform, buttons unbuttoned on him and Eloy.  Contrast that with Yermin in a buttoned up uniform and no chains showing in San Fran.

2. He threw Yermin under the bus because he hit a HR on a 0-3 count. “With that kind of a lead, that’s just sportsmanship, or respect for the game or respect for your opponent,” La Russa said. “He made a mistake. There will be a consequence that he’s going to have to endure within our family. It won’t happen again.

One of these things actually matters.  Managers burying their players is never a good policy.  The other is a superficial waste of time based on cultural standards that are different for guys like Eloy and Yermin.

[ChiSox59]

3 hours ago, Chimpton said:

And what are the prospects of a 'smart offseason'? Hahn has created this mess so expecting him to sort it out is overly optimistic. Even without a senile manager and dubious coaches this squad has so many holes in it that it would struggle to win a championship.

• Fire Tony and the coaching staff.  First order of business.
• Find a way to solve the Abreu/Eloy/Vaughn issue
  • IMO, Abreu is going nowhere, you cannot trade Eloy right now and AV has the most value.  I have never been a huge proponent of trading AV in the past as I really like him, but he simply has no spot on this club if Abreu is sticking around.  I'd try to trade him for a middle infielder that better fits team needs (LHH; good defender) to play 2B or a RF (though there are some solid FA options)
  • Don't overpay for Abreu FFS.  1 year deal in $12-$15M range, with a team option should be the max.  Make sure this deal is completed before trading AV.  
• Sign Brandon Nimmo.  Conforto on a pillow contract is a back up option
• Make Eloy an everday DH and stop caring about his feelings

TA SS, Moncada 3B, Robert CF, Abreu 1B, Nimmo/Conforto LF/RF, Eloy DH, Pollock/Colas LF/RF, Yaz/Perez C, 2B acquisition 

BN: Pollock, Perez, Leury/Harrison, Engel 

Basically roll back the same starting rotation and bullpen,.  Maybe sign an interesting back end rotation guy on a 1 year deal, or maybe Cueto wants to come back.  Hope Gio and Lynn are far better in 2023, not much else you can do there.  Certainly don't need further $ spent on the pen. 

That team is far more balanced, better defensively and certainly better managed (don't even need to know who it is). 

Edited August 2, 2022 by ChiSox59

[South Side Hit Men]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Very very low. Unless this team is actually willing to push its payroll up to the tax level, as of right now they are looking at losing Abreu, Cueto, and Harrison, and having just over $20 million to spend to replace them to reach this year’s payroll. Or in other words, if they keep Abreu, they have like $2 million to spend on the rest of the roster.

If I'm brought in to clean Hahn's mess, I'm coupling one or two solid players with one or two shitty contracts this offseason.

• Dodgers - Tim Anderson, Lance Lynn and Joe Kelly (if they are passing on $30-$40M AAV Turner, Correa, Bogerts) for 2-3 solid play now young players.
• Marlins - Eloy, Pollock and Sheets for a starter.
• Liam Hendriks has a solid contract for a team not worried about the Luxury Tax (either far above it or not close to it).

If I was hired this morning, I'd flip Cueto, Harrison, Lynn, Lucas, Liam, Graveman, Anderson, Eloy, Burger, Sheets for solid players ready in 2023-2025.

 

 

[T R U]

14 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

If I'm brought in to clean Hahn's mess, I'm coupling one or two solid players with one or two shitty contracts this offseason.

• Dodgers - Tim Anderson, Lance Lynn and Joe Kelly (if they are passing on $30-$40M AAV Turner, Correa, Bogerts) for 2-3 solid play now young players.
• Marlins - Eloy, Pollock and Sheets for a starter.
• Liam Hendriks has a solid contract for a team not worried about the Luxury Tax (either far above it or not close to it).

If I was hired this morning, I'd flip Cueto, Harrison, Lynn, Lucas, Liam, Graveman, Anderson, Eloy, Burger, Sheets for solid players ready in 2023-2025.

 

 

We don't need to tear it down to the foundation and rebuild, but they absolutely need to re-tool. Here is what must happen this offseason if we miss the playoffs.

* LaRussa is relieved of his duties.

* Hahn is relieved of his duties.

* A new GM/Manager combo, from outside of the organization, is brought in the reshape the current foundation.

That's a start.

[South Side Hit Men]

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

We don't need to tear it down to the foundation and rebuild, but they absolutely need to re-tool. Here is what must happen this offseason if we miss the playoffs.

* LaRussa is relieved of his duties.

* Hahn is relieved of his duties.

* A new GM/Manager combo, from outside of the organization, is brought in the reshape the current foundation.

That's a start.

I wouldn't dump everyone, just make one or two moves so you have the financial room to acquire a starting RF, a starting 2B, a starting C and a starting pitcher. Would try my best to compete in 2023, with 2024-2025 being clean years in terms of the bad remaining contracts.

I don't see Jerry going $210-$220 with in stadium revenue likely decreasing in 2023.

[The Grinder]

I voted No. We are a .500 team

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, T R U said:

We don't need to tear it down to the foundation and rebuild, but they absolutely need to re-tool. Here is what must happen this offseason if we miss the playoffs.

* LaRussa is relieved of his duties.

* Hahn is relieved of his duties.

* A new GM/Manager combo, from outside of the organization, is brought in the reshape the current foundation.

That's a start.

Menechino/asst. Clark, McEwing, Boston, Cairo and Narron have to go too

Edited August 2, 2022 by caulfield12

[greg775]

16 hours ago, ron883 said:

It kind of feels like the rebuild was for nothing, which is depressing. 

Hmmmm. Greg was against the tank/rebuild. I like the traditional way of building teams, then catching lightning in a bottle like 05.

Edited August 2, 2022 by greg775

[greg775]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

If I'm brought in to clean Hahn's mess, I'm coupling one or two solid players with one or two shitty contracts this offseason.

• Dodgers - Tim Anderson, Lance Lynn and Joe Kelly (if they are passing on $30-$40M AAV Turner, Correa, Bogerts) for 2-3 solid play now young players.
• Marlins - Eloy, Pollock and Sheets for a starter.
• Liam Hendriks has a solid contract for a team not worried about the Luxury Tax (either far above it or not close to it).

If I was hired this morning, I'd flip Cueto, Harrison, Lynn, Lucas, Liam, Graveman, Anderson, Eloy, Burger, Sheets for solid players ready in 2023-2025.

 

 

LOL at how you don't mention specific names of players you want in the trades. Easy to get rid of your players. How bout some names of players you want? There aren't many players worth a bleep nowadays in MLB. ... For instance, Tim Anderson is a pretty solid player, hitting .313. Yet only six homers and a ridiculous 25 RBI. What would a team give up for him? He's not exactly acting like a superstar of late. He's 'OK' like a lot of players your proposed trades would acquire.

[Green Line]

Its not salvageable but they should keep trying anyway.  Just go for making the playoffs every year and be content with 1st round exits.  I watched too many bad years of baseball and Im not going to sit through another decade + of rebuilding.

[Chimpton]

4 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

• Fire Tony and the coaching staff.  First order of business.
• Find a way to solve the Abreu/Eloy/Vaughn issue
  • IMO, Abreu is going nowhere, you cannot trade Eloy right now and AV has the most value.  I have never been a huge proponent of trading AV in the past as I really like him, but he simply has no spot on this club if Abreu is sticking around.  I'd try to trade him for a middle infielder that better fits team needs (LHH; good defender) to play 2B or a RF (though there are some solid FA options)
  • Don't overpay for Abreu FFS.  1 year deal in $12-$15M range, with a team option should be the max.  Make sure this deal is completed before trading AV.  
• Sign Brandon Nimmo.  Conforto on a pillow contract is a back up option
• Make Eloy an everday DH and stop caring about his feelings

TA SS, Moncada 3B, Robert CF, Abreu 1B, Nimmo/Conforto LF/RF, Eloy DH, Pollock/Colas LF/RF, Yaz/Perez C, 2B acquisition 

BN: Pollock, Perez, Leury/Harrison, Engel 

Basically roll back the same starting rotation and bullpen,.  Maybe sign an interesting back end rotation guy on a 1 year deal, or maybe Cueto wants to come back.  Hope Gio and Lynn are far better in 2023, not much else you can do there.  Certainly don't need further $ spent on the pen. 

That team is far more balanced, better defensively and certainly better managed (don't even need to know who it is). 

You have got the job ?

[Jack Parkman]

Just my opinion, but I think the Sox go to Cease with an extension this winter, and if he doesn't accept they trade him. 

I have a feeling that Jerry is going to mandate payroll be slashed and some players are going to be salary dumped and some good players will be traded. 

This team is getting torn down yet again, and yet again there will be no accountability for the FO. 

I think Robert, Vaughn and Eloy will remain due to age.  Everyone else is fair game. 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

LOL at how you don't mention specific names of players you want in the trades. Easy to get rid of your players. How bout some names of players you want? There aren't many players worth a bleep nowadays in MLB. ... For instance, Tim Anderson is a pretty solid player, hitting .313. Yet only six homers and a ridiculous 25 RBI. What would a team give up for him? He's not exactly acting like a superstar of late. He's 'OK' like a lot of players your proposed trades would acquire.

I fucking named the players I wanted last offseason once I knew who was available. Nobody knows who exactly who is available 2023 offseason on August 2nd.

Tim Anderson is on a team friendly contract. Most teams needing a shortstop would be very interested in trading for him, even the Dodgers if they are looking to spend the $35M-$45M AAV it will take to sign the top 3 SS FAs this offseason. There is a Grand Canyon sized gapped between those three and everyone else.

And who the fuck looks at RBIs in player evaluation, especially at the leadoff spot, especially with the absolute dogshit Tony La Russa pencils in 7-9 each and everyday. Talk about LOLz

I wanted Pablo Lopez, Gavin Lux, Tony Gonsolin, Joey Gallo, Willson Contreras and Robbie Ray as starters because they were significant upgrades.

I wanted to trade Eloy, Mercedes, Lynn, Keuchel, Kimbrel, Grandal, Burger and Collins because they were either expensive, old, not needed (Burger/Collins) and or in decline.

Basically, the plan every year is to undo what Hahn did the past three seasons and try to get as many young players who can contribute now in return.

Edited August 2, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[Balta1701]

38 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Just my opinion, but I think the Sox go to Cease with an extension this winter, and if he doesn't accept they trade him. 

I have a feeling that Jerry is going to mandate payroll be slashed and some players are going to be salary dumped and some good players will be traded. 

This team is getting torn down yet again, and yet again there will be no accountability for the FO. 

I think Robert, Vaughn and Eloy will remain due to age.  Everyone else is fair game. 

JMO - they're going to "run it back" next season. If they miss the playoffs, they may fire Rick Hahn, but otherwise similar coaching staff. 

Because of the amount of money committed to the roster next year and the players who have underperformed, it will make it very difficult for whoever the GM is to make substantial moves this offseason. Next year's club will look a lot like this year's club, and they'll hope that the results come through better