Worst Sox GM of all time

[bmags]

Tough choice.

I’d go Hahn, Hawk, Veeck personally

[southsider2k5]

It's Hawk and everyone else.

[South Side Hit Men]

Roland Hemond was Veeck's 1970s GM. Hank Greenberg in the late 1950s.

 

[bmags]

12 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Roland Hemond was Veeck's 1970s GM. Hank Greenberg in the late 1950s.

 

Yes but wasn’t Veeck running all contracts and trades? At least he made it seem like it in newspaper reports and player stories.

[South Side Hit Men]

6 minutes ago, bmags said:

Yes but wasn’t Veeck running all contracts and trades? At least he made it seem like it in newspaper reports and player stories.

Bill Veeck loved to sell Bill Veeck. Good PR, got fans excited. But he had quality GMs with him.

I would agree he had more input than most owners want or care to have, but he wasn't Jerry Jones.

[caulfield12]

 

Charles Comiskey or whoever did player acquisitions at Black Sox time?

Himes by far the most underappreciated.

Schueler squarely in the middle.

Dan Evans Kim Ng Dombrowski got jobs elsewhere.

 

Who were the architects of those late 50's and 60's teams again?

Edited August 2, 2022 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

 

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Charles Comiskey or whoever did player acquisitions at Black Sox time?

Himes by far the most underappreciated.

Schueler squarely in the middle.

Dan Evans Kim Ng Dombrowski got jobs elsewhere.

Who were the architects of those late 50's and 60's teams again?

The Sox would have won three World Series, perhaps 1-2 more in the early 1920s, if it weren't for the Black Sox scandal.

My rankings, Best to Worst (Best Season(s))

Three Distinct Tiers (1-5; 6-10; 11-13)

1. Kenny Williams (2001-2012) 1014-931 .521 World Series (2005) & American League Central Title (2008)
2. Charles Comiskey (1901-1914) 1115-968-48 .534 World Series (1906)
3. Harry Grabiner (1915-1945) 2285-2408-27 .487 World Series (1917) & American League Pennant (1919) - Screwed by Black Sox & Great Depression
4. Hank Greenberg (1959-1961) 267-203-3 .568 American League Pennant (1959)
5. Ron Schueler (1991-2000) 817-734-3 .527 American League West (1993) One (2000) & A Half (1994) AL Central Titles
6. Ed Short (1962-1970) 735-723-1 .504 Three Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1963-1965) 
7. Roland Hemond (1970-1985) 1165-1192-6 .494 American League West Division Title (1983)
8. Charles Comiskey II (1956-1958) 257-205-2 .556 Two Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1957-1958)
9. Frank Lane (1949-1955) 559-519-9 .518 Four straight 3rd Place Finishes (1952-1955)
10. Larry Himes (1987-1990) 311-335 .481 2nd Place (1990) - Built 1990s Core
11. Leslie O'Connor (1946-1948) 195-265-4 .425 5th Place (1946) 
12. Hawk Harrelson (1986) 72-90-0 .444 5th Place - Peak Suckage
13. Rick Hahn (2013-2022) 670-787 .460 American League Central Title (2021) - Peak Sustained Suckage

Edited August 3, 2022 by South Side Hit Men

[oldsox]

Frank Lane pretty good.

[Quin]

Hawk got us into this mess.

[soulfly]

The man who always thinks he's the smartest man in the room, Rick Hahn.  It's literally mind blowing that he is still employed.

[caulfield12]

7 hours ago, oldsox said:

Frank Lane pretty good.

Should have aspired for more second place finishes!

[bmags]

10 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The Sox would have won three World Series, perhaps 1-2 more in the early 1920s, if it weren't for the Black Sox scandal.

My rankings, Best to Worst (Best Season(s))

Three Distinct Tiers (1-5; 6-10; 11-13)

1. Kenny Williams (2001-2012) 1014-931 .521 World Series (2005) & American League Central Title (2008)
2. Charles Comiskey (1901-1914) 1115-968-48 .534 World Series (1906)
3. Harry Grabiner (1915-1945) 2285-2408-27 .487 World Series (1917) & American League Pennant (1919) - Screwed by Black Sox & Great Depression
4. Hank Greenberg (1959-1961) 267-203-3 .568 American League Pennant (1959)
5. Ron Schueler (1991-2000) 817-734-3 .527 American League West (1993) One (2000) & A Half (1994) AL Central Titles
6. Ed Short (1962-1970) 735-723-1 .504 Three Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1963-1965) 
7. Roland Hemond (1970-1985) 1165-1192-6 .494 American League West Division Title (1983)
8. Charles Comiskey II (1956-1958) 257-205-2 .556 Two Straight 2nd Place Finishes (1957-1958)
9. Frank Lane (1949-1955) 559-519-9 .518 Four straight 3rd Place Finishes (1952-1955)
10. Larry Himes (1987-1990) 311-335 .481 2nd Place (1990) - Built 1990s Core
11. Leslie O'Connor (1946-1948) 195-265-4 .425 5th Place (1946) 
12. Hawk Harrelson (1986) 72-90-0 .444 5th Place - Peak Suckage
13. Rick Hahn (2013-2022) 670-787 .460 American League Central Title (2021) - Peak Sustained Suckage

So this would be an example I’m trying to understand. I guess I though Gms under the Sox, until maybe like Hemond, we’re more like scouting directors and such.

The Sievers for Earl Battey trade is legend in my family because my great uncle curses Veeck to this day for it. I do think it could have led to one pennant more in the sixties even with the power house Yankees.

The Sabr article like this, it’s always referencing owners who lead the charge: 

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/roy-sievers/

Do we really have a permanent white Sox set up where I can attribute the bad moves to the owner and good ones to the GM ? I kinda love that.

[oldsox]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Should have aspired for more second place finishes!

I see your humor.  Frank Lane got the White Sox Billy Pierce, Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, and Sherm Lollar for next to nothing.  Without Lane, Sox would have been right down there with St. Louis Browns.

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, oldsox said:

I see your humor.  Frank Lane got the White Sox Billy Pierce, Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, and Sherm Lollar for next to nothing.  Without Lane, Sox would have been right down there with St. Louis Browns.

50s/60s Sox, had they just been in the NL, I feel like would have had 4-5 pennants instead of 1. 

[GreenSox]

Just off the top of my head, Avilla's worse.  Maybe Jon Daniels these days too and whoever's running the Angels, Rockies and Diamondbacks (no idea why the D Backs are so bad).  That's about the best I can say.

[caulfield12]

35 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Just off the top of my head, Avilla's worse.  Maybe Jon Daniels these days too and whoever's running the Angels, Rockies and Diamondbacks (no idea why the D Backs are so bad).  That's about the best I can say.

Dayton Moore…although he has the ring with Yost.

[WBWSF]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

So this would be an example I’m trying to understand. I guess I though Gms under the Sox, until maybe like Hemond, we’re more like scouting directors and such.

The Sievers for Earl Battey trade is legend in my family because my great uncle curses Veeck to this day for it. I do think it could have led to one pennant more in the sixties even with the power house Yankees.

The Sabr article like this, it’s always referencing owners who lead the charge: 

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/roy-sievers/

Do we really have a permanent white Sox set up where I can attribute the bad moves to the owner and good ones to the GM ? I kinda love that.

Trading Battey, Romano, Cash, Mincher and Callison cost the White Sox at least 2 pennants.

[bmags]

47 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Just off the top of my head, Avilla's worse.  Maybe Jon Daniels these days too and whoever's running the Angels, Rockies and Diamondbacks (no idea why the D Backs are so bad).  That's about the best I can say.

Jon Daniels made back to back World Series and isn’t the GM anymore. Dbacks group is only 2 years old. Rockies I think are tied. They technically won a playoff series during same tenure as Hahn so I give them the edge.

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Trading Battey, Romano, Cash, Mincher and Callison cost the White Sox at least 2 pennants.

That post 59 offseason looks horrible, going all out for 1960 and then they were so close for years after that where Callison, Battey for sure could have put them over the top in 62-65

[GreenSox]

Well I misread the title of this thread.

Anyway, Ed Short was really bad his last 3 seasons.  And the farm was bad.  Sub-Hahn at least at the end.
Hawk wasn't as bad as his rep. While he traded Bonilla for fiddlesticks, he also picked him up in Rule 5.
Himes was probably the best GM the Sox have had in the last 50 years.  Schueler inherited well from him - should have done better.

[Highland]

Hawk was clearly in over his head. The LaRussa firing was handled badly and made the organization look like amateurs.  But Hahn has more than enough time to turn this thing around. This offseason is important. If he misfires again, the tank will be for nothing. 

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

So this would be an example I’m trying to understand. I guess I though Gms under the Sox, until maybe like Hemond, we’re more like scouting directors and such.

The Sievers for Earl Battey trade is legend in my family because my great uncle curses Veeck to this day for it. I do think it could have led to one pennant more in the sixties even with the power house Yankees.

The Sabr article like this, it’s always referencing owners who lead the charge: 

https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/roy-sievers/

Do we really have a permanent white Sox set up where I can attribute the bad moves to the owner and good ones to the GM ? I kinda love that.

Really enjoyed the article. Hard to imagine even a 1980s Jerry Reinsdorf hitting ground balls to a first baseman "day in and day out" for development. 

Many of us have ancestors beyond ourselves who hold grudges of current and former owners/GMs/managers. My grandfather went to his death bed a year shy of forty years after 1959 never forgiving Al Lopez for not starting Billy Pierce in the 1959 World Series. Billy pitched four innings of shutout ball over three appearances. 

Veeck was trying to buy the AL California expansion franchise after the 59 pennant. Hank and Bill operated more like Kenny Williams in terms of go for it every year. We all have our own perspectives, but would say Bill Veeck did a lot of good wherever he went, won a WS and a Pennant over five seasons in Cleveland and his first stint here, and saved the Sox from moving to Seattle. Also shifted the fan base interest back to the South Side during both of his stints, with his teams drawing nearly double the Cubs in 1959-60 & the late 1970s.

Would say Charles Comiskey had by far the greatest influence in terms of ownership, even setting aside his decision to move his AA team from Minnesota and his formation of the American League.  Jerry Reinsdorf had the second greatest influence, in terms of longevity, influence on the game itself (mostly bad) and the team (good - Kenny, to some extent Ozzie) and bad (Sportsvision, Tony, Carrots for Fans, Harry Caray, White Flag, his disgust of fans, Tampa flirtation, etc.., 

The OG Virginia McCaskey Owner Archetype had the third greatest influence, Charles' daughter Grace Comiskey (Ownership 1939-1956), leaving the team to her kids Charles Comiskey II and Dorothy for a few years before Dorothy sold her shares to Veeck in 1958. Those teams by and large sucked, same as the Bears since Halas' death.

Would rank Bill Veeck's two "Grover Cleveland-ish" tenures as the forth greatest White Sox ownership influence, primarily for keeping the Sox in Chicago for 1976 at the behest of Andy McKenna but also for the success of the 1959 and 1977 teams.

Quote

Bill Veeck, who bought a controlling interest in the Browns from the DeWitt family in 1951, thought that to save his career, Sievers should play first base. Sievers said Veeck hit him groundballs “day-in and day-out. … That’s how I learned to play first base.” Though Sievers was batting just .162 on June 9, and The Sporting News labeled him a “major disappointment,” Veeck and new Browns manager, Marty Marion, exercised patience. Sievers began using one of Cardinal infielder Red Schoendienst’s bats. “It [had] a skinnier handle … and [felt] a lot better to swing than my old bat,” he said.14 He batted .308 the rest of the season to finish with a respectable .270 average while playing exclusively at first base. (But he lacked power, clubbing just eight home runs.)

 

[Bossanoveralls]

Carlton Fisk. Left field.

[JoshPR]

Ron Schueler. Hawk Harrison. Sorry Hahn ain't even close to these 2